Has Prophecy Really Ceased ?

[TadQueasy]

The discussion here is about prophecy, not about all of Scripture. I think Rev. 22 is clear about prophecy. Discussing all of Scripture is a different subject, much broader, about the canon of Scripture.

But does it not have to speak to all of Scripture, if you are going to use it as a text to say all prophecy has ceased? Otherwise, the text again seems to only point to prophecy in Revelation. The prophecy of Revelation should not be added to...

 

[John of Japan]

But does it not have to speak to all of Scripture, if you are going to use it as a text to say all prophecy has ceased? Otherwise, the text again seems to only point to prophecy in Revelation. The prophecy of Revelation should not be added to...

Note what I edited in in my last post:

I mean prophecy in Revelation as foretelling prophecy, not forthtelling prophecy. In Charismatic circles, foretelling prophecy is the ruling brand, and I think Rev. 22 forbids that.

 

[TadQueasy]

Ok thanks. Then in your understanding, foretelling prophecy has ceased, but forthtelling prophecy is still happening?

 

[John of Japan]

Ok thanks. Then in your understanding, foretelling prophecy has ceased, but forthtelling prophecy is still happening?

It depends on how you define forthtelling prophecy. Charismatics often will give revelation when they do forthtelling prophecy, in the sense of specific information from God. If by forthtelling prophecy you mean what the Charismatics do, I see that almost invariably (in what I've seen and heard) as adding revelation.

If you see forthtelling prophecy as simply telling and warning others what God has revealed in His Word (a defintion that John R. Rice used), then I'm for it.

 

[TadQueasy]

Thanks John, you have helped confirm in my mind the whole understanding of prophecy and whether it has ceased or not is a muddled mess and is not as cut and dry and some would have you to believe.

 

[John of Japan]

Thanks John, you have helped confirm in my mind the whole understanding of prophecy and whether it has ceased or not is a muddled mess and is not as cut and dry and some would have you to believe.

You're welcome.

The Charismatics changed the whole dialogue about prophecy that existed until the 1960s. Even the original Pentecostals didn't go nearly as far as the Charismatics do in this respect.

 

[Tom Butler]

Tad, here's a scripture verse to chew on:
I Corinthians 13:8

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

All of these are spiritual gifts, and Paul clearly is saying they will end at some point (when that which is perfect is come).

We may disagree on when that end is, and what the "perfect" is and when it will come.

I believe the case can be made for the "perfect" being the closing of the canon.

 

[TadQueasy]

What in that context would lead you to believe that the perfect being the closing of the canon? That seems like a stretch.

 

[Iconoclast]

The Apostles and they alone were promised by Jesus to be guided into ALL TRUTH

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

They were with signs and wonders confirming their word 2 cor12:12.

12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

They were given all we need as pertains to life and Godliness.

2 Peter 1 (King James Version)


1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

This faith was "once for all time "delivered to the saints.

Jude 1:3

King James Version (KJV)

3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints

The apostle john would write,

6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

he identifies that those who are of God hear the apostolic word, those who do not are in error. The us is the apostles....

1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us

Jesus ordained them for this purpose, and promised to bring all things to their remembrance,
25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, [B]and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.[/B]

 

[TadQueasy]

Thanks for the verses Icono, I will take some time to work through these. I appreciate it.

 

[Yeshua1]

The manifestation through prophecy is an inspiration gift. 1 Cor. says this is the most important gift between tongues, interpretation of tongues..it takes both of these to equal prophecy.

Prophecy is a supernatural utterance in a known tongue. Divers kinds of tongues is a supernatural utterance in an unknown tongue.

Hebrew "to prophecy" is to flow forth. It also carries with it the thought: to bubble forth like a fountain, to let drop, to lift up, to tumble forth, and to spring forth.

Greek word that translated "prophecy" means to speak for another. So "prophecy" can mean to speak for God or to be His spokesman.

We are to desire prophesy.

I do not think prophesy should be confused with the prophetic office or with prophetic utterance that may come forth in the prophet's ministry...In the simply gift of prophesy is there really revelation? I do not think so...It is given to edify, exhort and comfort. In the prophetic office, we very often find revelation or tortelling does come forth, even through the vehicle of prophecy.

There is also a difference in OT and NT..

actually, the NT prophets function SAME way as the OT ones did, as they inspired by god to give forth words from god into the situation, check Acts where the word says the Spirit spoke regarding paul/Barnabus being set apart, that there would be a coming famine etc///

The prophesy in the local church was the Spirit encouraging/ministering /exhortingamong the saints, but that was NOT as NT prophets, as there HAD to be guidelines to discern that which was the Spirit speaking thru someone, and their own flesh/mind!

NO NT prophets today in sense of revelation coming from God, and no more need to jave local prophesy for the church, as we have the full scriptures complete to us, those are the revelation of God for today!

 

[Iconoclast]

Thanks for the verses Icono, I will take some time to work through these. I appreciate it.

acts4

33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.

acts5

12 And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.

acts14

3 Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands.

 

[tomana]

What in that context would lead you to believe that the perfect being the closing of the canon? That seems like a stretch.

Tad,

1 Cor 13:9-10
For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect [teleios] comes, the partial will pass away.

the KJV translators used a phrase "that which is perfect" to best translate the single Greek word "teleios"

teleios: having reached its end, i.e. complete, by ext. perfect
Original Word: τέλειος, α, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: teleios
Phonetic Spelling: (tel'-i-os)
Short Definition: perfect, full-grown
Definition: perfect, (a) complete in all its parts, (b) full grown, of full age, (c) specially of the completeness of Christian character.

the word "teleios" is a gender neutral word and, when compared to the definitions posted above, it ought to be clear that "teleios" is not referring to Jesus Christ.

1 Cor 13:8-10

Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away

those are gifts of the Spirit that were in operation when the Church still did nto have what we call the New Testament and so, the New Testament was brought to the churches via the apostles, their letters (epistles), prophets and teachers.

For we know in part, and we prophesy in part [meros]

This could mean no one church had all of the prophesies (New Testament teachings) yet. The word in the Greek that was translated "part" is "meros" and it means "a division or share".

But when that which is perfect [teleios] is come, then that which is in part [meros] shall be done away

The only thing I can think of that was in part but is now whole, complete (contains all the shares, all the divisions) is the closed Canon we call the holy bible. Since it was completed (closed) no one has added anything to it's pages. The apocrypha was added to the KJV but llater removed.


regarding the Apocrypha:

A point of interest is that Josephus, a Jew who lived about the time of Jesus and apostles stated that the Apocrypha were not accepted by the Jews.

"From Artexerxes to our own time the complete history has been written but has not been deemed worthy of equal credit with the earlier records because of the failure of the exact succession of the prophets. ... We have not an innumerable multitude of books among us, disagreeing from and contradicting one another, but only twenty-two books, which contain the records of all the past times; which are justly believed to be divine ..." [Flavius Josephus, Against Apion, I.8]. The Manual of Discipline in the Dead Sea Scrolls, dating two hundred years before Christ, also rejected the apocrypha as inspired

Pentecostals, Charismatics, etc have been teaching that "when that which is perfect is come" is referring to the second coming of Jesus Christ (because they think it makes them correct to believe the gifts have been given back to the Church of our day) but teaching such a thing is what is considered to be serious error since it is not difficult to do the study of the word "teleios". To reject the truth once it is know (in this case, that "teleios" is not referring to Jesus Christ) and then to keep teaching the error (teaching others that "when that which is perfect is come" is referring to the second coming of Jesus Christ) is what is called heresy. Dangerous stuff, for Jesus said just a pinch of yeast (leaven) will spread throughout the whole lump of dough.

Speaking of Matthew 16:11, did you ever stop to realize Jesus calls us Dough Brains :laugh:

 

[awaken]

This is an unhealthy serving of baloney. The usual Hebrew word is naba', and it does not mean to "flow forth." Here is the BDB definition:

The Greek verb is propheteuo (profhteuw), and the BAGD definition is:

As you can see, there is nothing in these definitions anything like what awaken says in his pretended expertise. Prophecy has ceased since we have the entire Word of God. Adding to the Word of God is very dangerous spiritually: "Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar" (Prov. 30:6).

Prophecy edifies, exhorts and comforts; helps us build up or strengthen; and should lead us to the Word of God. It is the ministry of the Holy Spirit to convict of sin, of righteousness, and of judgement.

It is divinely inspired..a supernatural proclamation in a known language. It is not of intellect..it is the manifestation of the Holy Spirit.

Prophecy is forthtelling!!

 

[awaken]

Prophecy (as seen in the above definitions) is revelation, or the revealing of truth from God. Rev. 22:18-19 makes it clear that the book of Revelation is the final prophecy from God, the final revelation. There is a curse for anyone adding to or subtracting from that revelation.

Prophecy is still here...and it does not add or take away from the Word of God!

 

[thomas15]

Prophecy is still here...and it does not add or take away from the Word of God!

Are you a prophet?

 

[awaken]

Are you a prophet?

NO! Don't confuse the gift of prophecy with the office of the prophet.

 

[thomas15]

NO! Don't confuse the gift of prophecy with the office of the prophet.

Do you have the gift of prophecy?

 

[saturneptune]

Are you a prophet?

Yes I am, and as a demonstration of my power, I predict in post #38 you will ask someone if they have the gift of prophecy.

 

[saturneptune]

Do you have the gift of prophecy?

Yes I do, I predict this time next week, you will be a resident of Pennsylvania. In addition to prophecy, I am an administrator, encourager, teacher, pastor, deacon, bishop and pot luck organizer. I also sing and dance. Oh, I almost forgot. My most prominant fruit of the Spirit is being humble.