God's Sovereignty

[Judith]

I have read posts on here where some claim that God ordains everything because of his Sovereignty. So doesn't that mean that He put President Obama in office and those who are clamoring about the President and his policies are speaking against God and His choice? Also doesn't it mean that everyone who voted against President Obama voted against the will of God? Just curious.

 

[mont974x4]

I fully rest in the knowledge that God is all sovereign. He is not only unsurprised when things happen, His hand is in it all.

I also fully rest in the knowledge and wisdom of Romans 8:28-30 which tells me all these things are for my ultimate good (that being more and more conformed to the image of Christ) and for His ultimate glory.

I also fully rest in the knowledge that God, being sovereign, places ALL people in authority. In the US He works through the voters. LadyEagle has pointed out, in more than one post, that America got what it wanted. The list includes unrighteous things like abortion, gay marriage, and reliance on the government.

So, knowing God is all sovereign and the people voted Obama in do you think God moved the hearts of the voters? I believe He did. I base that on what I read about God working in the hearts of people. A prime example is pharaoh.

Exo 4:21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go. (NASB, emphasis mine)


On the positive side He does change hearts so that people fear and obey Him.

Eze 36:26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. (NASB, emphasis mine)


Therefore, pray. Pray for your pastors and your churches. Pray for the Church. Pray for this nation. Pray for Obama and our other leaders. For perhaps God will have mercy for His namesake and change the hearts of the people. Even if He doesn't we must serve the Lord.

Recognizing sin and injustice, even that done by the man God put in the Whitehouse, is something that we are called to do.

 

[Iconoclast]

Judith

I have read posts on here where some claim that God ordains everything because of his Sovereignty.

While all men are responsible to live by the ten commandments and to be thankful and worship God....they fail because as descendants of Adam they are bound in sin.

God has ordained whatsoever comes to pass,and yet is not the author of sin.
Some claim that because that is basically what God has revealed about Himself in scripture;
9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness:

13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.

So doesn't that mean that He put President Obama in office and those who are clamoring about the President and his policies are speaking against God and His choice?

We do not have direct revelation today as God does not speak to us apart from His word now.All through the bible however we are told that God blesses a people ,or curses and judges a people by the rulers he allows tocome to rule in His providence;

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.


10 Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?

11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.


The fact that we had a choice of two ungodly persons shows we are under the judgement of God for national sins.....abortion, open sodomites destroying marraige,greed, instituopnal racism, religious apostasy.

Also doesn't it mean that everyone who voted against President Obama voted against the will of God? Just curious.

Yes...anyone who voted for someone who supports the murder of babies,and sodomite activities,,,are partakers and enablers of that wickedness.

 

[psalms109:31]

Jeremiah 23 :
21 I did not send these prophets,
yet they have run with their message;
I did not speak to them,
yet they have prophesied.
22 But if they had stood in my council,
they would have proclaimed my words to my people
and would have turned them from their evil ways
and from their evil deeds.

Ezekiel 18 :
25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear, you Israelites: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? 26 If a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin, they will die for it; because of the sin they have committed they will die. 27 But if a wicked person turns away from the wickedness they have committed and does what is just and right, they will save their life. 28 Because they consider all the offenses they have committed and turn away from them, that person will surely live; they will not die. 29 Yet the Israelites say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Are my ways unjust, people of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust?

30 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!

I do not think man understand what sovereignty is. Our soverign God takes no pleasure in the death of no one, but rather them to repent and live.

It does not mean God has to create us or force certain people to make a choice to repent, but what it does mean if they repent they will live. They live not because of what they did, but because of the word of God said so, and because of His will.

"The system of truth is not one straight line, but two. No man will ever get a right view of the gospel until he knows how to look at the two lines at once. I am taught in one book to believe that what I sow I shall reap: I am taught in another place, that "it is not of him that willeth nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy." I see in one place, God presiding over all in providence; and yet I see, and I cannot help seeing, that man acts as he pleases, and that God has left his actions to his own will, in a great measure. Now, if I were to declare that man was so free to act, that there was no presidence of God over his actions, I should be driven very near to Atheism; and if, on the other hand, I declare that God so overrules all things, as that man is not free enough to be responsible, I am driven at once into Antinomianism or fatalism. That God predestines, and that man is responsible, are two things that few can see. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory; but they are not. It is just the fault of our weak judgment. Two truths cannot be contradictory to each other. If, then, I find taught in one place that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find in another place that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is my folly that leads me to imagine that two truths can ever contradict each other. These two truths, I do not believe, can ever be welded into one upon any human anvil, but one they shall be in eternity: they are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the mind that shall pursue them farthest, will never discover that they converge; but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring."

C.H Spurgeon

 

[Judith]

So if God decides everything then those who voted against President Obama were standing against God's will, correct?

 

[psalms109:31]

So if God decides everything then those who voted against President Obama were standing against God's will, correct?

God gave to us what the majority of the people wanted or Obama would not be President.

1 Samuel 8
Israel Asks for a King

8 When Samuel grew old, he appointed his sons as Israel’s leaders.[Traditionally judges] 2 The name of his firstborn was Joel and the name of his second was Abijah, and they served at Beersheba. 3 But his sons did not follow his ways. They turned aside after dishonest gain and accepted bribes and perverted justice.

4 So all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah. 5 They said to him, “You are old, and your sons do not follow your ways; now appoint a king to lead[Traditionally judge; also in verses 6 and 20] us, such as all the other nations have.”

6 But when they said, “Give us a king to lead us,” this displeased Samuel; so he prayed to the Lord. 7 And the Lord told him: “Listen to all that the people are saying to you; it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected me as their king. 8 As they have done from the day I brought them up out of Egypt until this day, forsaking me and serving other gods, so they are doing to you. 9 Now listen to them; but warn them solemnly and let them know what the king who will reign over them will claim as his rights.”

10 Samuel told all the words of the Lord to the people who were asking him for a king. 11 He said, “This is what the king who will reign over you will claim as his rights: He will take your sons and make them serve with his chariots and horses, and they will run in front of his chariots. 12 Some he will assign to be commanders of thousands and commanders of fifties, and others to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and still others to make weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. 13 He will take your daughters to be perfumers and cooks and bakers. 14 He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive groves and give them to his attendants. 15 He will take a tenth of your grain and of your vintage and give it to his officials and attendants. 16 Your male and female servants and the best of your cattle[Septuagint; Hebrew young men] and donkeys he will take for his own use. 17 He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his slaves. 18 When that day comes, you will cry out for relief from the king you have chosen, but the Lord will not answer you in that day.”

19 But the people refused to listen to Samuel. “No!” they said. “We want a king over us. 20 Then we will be like all the other nations, with a king to lead us and to go out before us and fight our battles.”

21 When Samuel heard all that the people said, he repeated it before the Lord. 22 The Lord answered, “Listen to them and give them a king.”

Then Samuel said to the Israelites, “Everyone go back to your own town.”

 

[Scarlett O.]

So if God decides everything then those who voted against President Obama were standing against God's will, correct?

Dear - the answer to your question is no. Neither myself nor any other Christian who voted for a candidate other than President Obama were "standing against God's will".

It was God's will that Pharoah be the leader of Egypt - even though he was an evil, evil man.

It was also God's will that Moses oppose him. Was Moses "standing against God's will" for opposing Pharoah? No.

I'm not comparing Pharoah to President Obama or myself to Moses, but you see my point.

Yes, apparently God wanted President Obama to rule over America for another 4 years. Why? I don't know. I may never know. What's done is done.

I also know that for me, God did not desire me to vote for President Obama. I know that for a clear and discernable fact. And God desiring me not to vote for President Obama and God's putting Obama back in office - well, those two facts do NOT contradict each other. Just as God's exalting Pharoah to leader only to have Moses oppose him and fight against him does not constitute a contradiction.

What is God's will for me now?

I will pray for the President and his family, support/respect his office, keep voting for Biblical values, and keep standing INSIDE the will of God no matter if the big pictures of God's will are not understandable to me.

 

[ktn4eg]

"Let every soul be subject unto higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God." --- Romans 13:1

And just who was "the powers that be" when the Holy Spirit moved upon the Apostle Paul to pen those words?

It was the Roman Emperor Nero---who wasn't exactly the most Christ-loving, Holy Spirit-filled, and God-honoring person on earth at the time.

My point is this, God IS sovereign!

"And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and amoung the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?" (Daniel 4:35 --- quoting not from the Prophet Daniel, but from Babylonian Emperor Nebuchnezzar who literally had to be put out to pasture because of his own pride! [See Daniel 4:37 for proof!])

Even before the events in Daniel took place, God revealed to the Prophet Habakkuk what He was going to do to the sinful nation of Judah. The prophet was so amazed that God would use the "even-more-ungodly Babylonians" to perform His will for "His Chosen People"! All Habakkuk could do was to 1) sit in his tower and watch the inevitable take place, and 2) live by his faith (Habakkuk 2:1-4).

And, I'd say that's probably what we here in 2012 might ought to consider doing as well......while also keeping in mind what Habakkuk wrote in 3:16-19.

God can, and oftentimes does, use ungodly people and/or systems to perform His will. EX: He used Caesar Augustus's decree to get Joseph and Mary to move to Bethlehem so that Micah 5:2 could be fulfilled.

God is not limited to our feeble concepts of what we consider to be fair or right or just. If He were, then He wouldn't be the all-knowing and all-powerful God that He is.

We (as mere sinful and fallible mortals) aren't always given the whole picture of what God's overall "Plan For The Ages" is---nor is God duty-bound to reveal to us everything He choses to do from Day 1 through Infinity Future.

HE is GOD, not us!

And, if you STILL think otherwise, then explain to all of us here in BB Land exactly why the Holy Spirit chose to include in God's Holy, Complete, Inerrant, and Infallible Word Psalm 2! :thumbsup: :wavey:

 

[SovereignMercy]

God gave to us what the majority of the people wanted or Obama would not be President.

1 Samuel 8
Israel Asks for a King

8 When Samuel grew old, he appointed his sons as Israel’s leaders.[Traditionally judges] 2 The name of his firstborn was Joel and the name of his second was Abijah, and they served at Beersheba. 3 But his sons did not follow his ways. They turned aside after dishonest gain and accepted bribes and perverted justice.

4 So all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah. 5 They said to him, “You are old, and your sons do not follow your ways; now appoint a king to lead[Traditionally judge; also in verses 6 and 20] us, such as all the other nations have.”

6 But when they said, “Give us a king to lead us,” this displeased Samuel; so he prayed to the Lord. 7 And the Lord told him: “Listen to all that the people are saying to you; it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected me as their king. 8 As they have done from the day I brought them up out of Egypt until this day, forsaking me and serving other gods, so they are doing to you. 9 Now listen to them; but warn them solemnly and let them know what the king who will reign over them will claim as his rights.”

10 Samuel told all the words of the Lord to the people who were asking him for a king. 11 He said, “This is what the king who will reign over you will claim as his rights: He will take your sons and make them serve with his chariots and horses, and they will run in front of his chariots. 12 Some he will assign to be commanders of thousands and commanders of fifties, and others to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and still others to make weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. 13 He will take your daughters to be perfumers and cooks and bakers. 14 He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive groves and give them to his attendants. 15 He will take a tenth of your grain and of your vintage and give it to his officials and attendants. 16 Your male and female servants and the best of your cattle[Septuagint; Hebrew young men] and donkeys he will take for his own use. 17 He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his slaves. 18 When that day comes, you will cry out for relief from the king you have chosen, but the Lord will not answer you in that day.”

19 But the people refused to listen to Samuel. “No!” they said. “We want a king over us. 20 Then we will be like all the other nations, with a king to lead us and to go out before us and fight our battles.”

21 When Samuel heard all that the people said, he repeated it before the Lord. 22 The Lord answered, “Listen to them and give them a king.”

Then Samuel said to the Israelites, “Everyone go back to your own town.”

So present day amerika = OT Israel?

 

[SovereignMercy]

"Let every soul be subject unto higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God." --- Romans 13:1

And just who was "the powers that be" when the Holy Spirit moved upon the Apostle Paul to pen those words?

It was the Roman Emperor Nero---who wasn't exactly the most Christ-loving, Holy Spirit-filled, and God-honoring person on earth at the time.

My point is this, God IS sovereign!

"And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and amoung the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?" (Daniel 4:35 --- quoting not from the Prophet Daniel, but from Babylonian Emperor Nebuchnezzar who literally had to be put out to pasture because of his own pride! [See Daniel 4:37 for proof!])

Even before the events in Daniel took place, God revealed to the Prophet Habakkuk what He was going to do to the sinful nation of Judah. The prophet was so amazed that God would use the "even-more-ungodly Babylonians" to perform His will for "His Chosen People"! All Habakkuk could do was to 1) sit in his tower and watch the inevitable take place, and 2) live by his faith (Habakkuk 2:1-4).

And, I'd say that's probably what we here in 2012 might ought to consider doing as well......while also keeping in mind what Habakkuk wrote in 3:16-19.

God can, and oftentimes does, use ungodly people and/or systems to perform His will. EX: He used Caesar Augustus's decree to get Joseph and Mary to move to Bethlehem so that Micah 5:2 could be fulfilled.

God is not limited to our feeble concepts of what we consider to be fair or right or just. If He were, then He wouldn't be the all-knowing and all-powerful God that He is.

We (as mere sinful and fallible mortals) aren't always given the whole picture of what God's overall "Plan For The Ages" is---nor is God duty-bound to reveal to us everything He choses to do from Day 1 through Infinity Future.

HE is GOD, not us!

And, if you STILL think otherwise, then explain to all of us here in BB Land exactly why the Holy Spirit chose to include in God's Holy, Complete, Inerrant, and Infallible Word Psalm 2! :thumbsup: :wavey:

X2 ktn4eg

X2

 

[psalms109:31]

So present day amerika = OT Israel?

No, just showing how God dealt with them and gave them over to what the people wanted. He gave others a king to lead them and they wanted to be like the rest of the world. amerika is not Israel, Jesus is. He is Jeshurun.

 

[Tom Butler]

In light of the question before us, does anybody want to exegete Romans 13?

Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

 

[TadQueasy]

Tom, thank you. I have shared that verse around here several times and usually people just try to explain it away. Quite said. We are a people that only want to deal with God's sovereignty on our own terms, which never works.

 

[Judith]

Dear - the answer to your question is no. Neither myself nor any other Christian who voted for a candidate other than President Obama were "standing against God's will".

It was God's will that Pharoah be the leader of Egypt - even though he was an evil, evil man.

It was also God's will that Moses oppose him. Was Moses "standing against God's will" for opposing Pharoah? No.

I'm not comparing Pharoah to President Obama or myself to Moses, but you see my point.

Yes, apparently God wanted President Obama to rule over America for another 4 years. Why? I don't know. I may never know. What's done is done.

I also know that for me, God did not desire me to vote for President Obama. I know that for a clear and discernable fact. And God desiring me not to vote for President Obama and God's putting Obama back in office - well, those two facts do NOT contradict each other. Just as God's exalting Pharoah to leader only to have Moses oppose him and fight against him does not constitute a contradiction.

What is God's will for me now?

I will pray for the President and his family, support/respect his office, keep voting for Biblical values, and keep standing INSIDE the will of God no matter if the big pictures of God's will are not understandable to me.

If it is God's will for President Obama to be President then anyone who did not want him to be president was standing against that will.

 

[Judith]

Tom, thank you. I have shared that verse around here several times and usually people just try to explain it away. Quite said. We are a people that only want to deal with God's sovereignty on our own terms, which never works.

With that I can agree. :thumbs:

 

[Yeshua1]

I have read posts on here where some claim that God ordains everything because of his Sovereignty. So doesn't that mean that He put President Obama in office and those who are clamoring about the President and his policies are speaking against God and His choice? Also doesn't it mean that everyone who voted against President Obama voted against the will of God? Just curious.

God is fully sovereign over all things, as NOTHING ever happens that either he did not cause or permit to happen, but cannot say the pres being re elected was the Will of god, for could be that God allowed us to make a bad decision!

 

[TadQueasy]

Anytime you add a "but" after stating God is fully sovereign you run in to problems.

 

[Yeshua1]

Anytime you add a "but" after stating God is fully sovereign you run in to problems.

Not really, for he is in control over all that happens, but is not the cause of all that happens!

 

[OldRegular]

So if God decides everything then those who voted against President Obama were standing against God's will, correct?

No! Not at all! That statement assumes prior knowledge of God's purpose.

 

[Scarlett O.]

If it is God's will for President Obama to be President then anyone who did not want him to be president was standing against that will.

Do you think Moses wanted Pharoah to be the cruel task-master over his people? Was his defying Pharoah and killing the man who beat one of his people "standing against God's will"?

You did apparently didn't read my post thoroughly and merely quoted it and repeated your mantra.

I'll leave you with this.

You - in your assertion that anyone who voted against President Obama or even didn't want him to be president - is in defiance of the will of God is based on a incorrect train of thought.

You are assuming that humanity can fully and completely know and understand the will of God and can predict God's movements in the future. We can't do that.

So, until God's plans are unveiled, we are to behave and act in accordance with His will that is outlined in the Bible.