OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Very well said Scarlett!
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
God's Sovereignty
- Thread starter Judith
- Start date
Very well said Scarlett!
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
And again well said!
jonathan.borland
Active Member
Traditionally Baptists are a little more balanced than this. If your premise is correct, why not go rob a bank since God must have preordained it?
SovereignMercy
Member
Notice the text says all, not some.
In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
SovereignMercy
Member
Huh??????????
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Can you support that with Scripture?
Great Question
In order to discuss your question, we must start with a common understanding of the terms used in your question.
What did you mean by "God ordains everything?" Did you mean God causes or allows everything or God predestines everything, whatsoever comes to pass including our choices to sin?
What did you mean by God's Sovereignty? That God causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass, or that God does not allow things to come to pass that miss the mark.
The majority of American voters, including many professing Christians, voted for our President. Other professing Christians stayed at home and did not vote for any candidate. I have not seen a poll on how the vast majority of folks claiming not to be Christian voted, but I would expect the vast majority voted for our President.
At the end of the day, the majority of Americans voted to further enslave themselves to the state which goes against God's statement that it is better to be free than slave. But just who are the actual slaves, those that produce and what they earn by the sweat of their brow is taken away or those who receive what was taken away? So was a vote for our President actually a vote to enslave others?
In order to discuss your question, we must start with a common understanding of the terms used in your question.
What did you mean by "God ordains everything?" Did you mean God causes or allows everything or God predestines everything, whatsoever comes to pass including our choices to sin?
What did you mean by God's Sovereignty? That God causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass, or that God does not allow things to come to pass that miss the mark.
The majority of American voters, including many professing Christians, voted for our President. Other professing Christians stayed at home and did not vote for any candidate. I have not seen a poll on how the vast majority of folks claiming not to be Christian voted, but I would expect the vast majority voted for our President.
At the end of the day, the majority of Americans voted to further enslave themselves to the state which goes against God's statement that it is better to be free than slave. But just who are the actual slaves, those that produce and what they earn by the sweat of their brow is taken away or those who receive what was taken away? So was a vote for our President actually a vote to enslave others?
psalms109:31
Active Member
Jesus is the only upright one, the only perfect one that lived on earth. So He is Israel and all who are in Him. The only righteousness to be upright any can claim is Jesus.
Jeshurun means the upright one, Jesus is the only one who can claim that not just before man but before God, even Isaiah before God said I am done a man with unclean lips. Jeshurun meaning the righteous one the upright one that is Israel.
Can Jacob claim the prize of being upright before God on his own merit?
Last edited by a moderator:
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I did not see Scripture and it appears you are applying a perfection to Israel that Scripture refutes.
psalms109:31
Active Member
Isaiah 44
New International Version (NIV)
Israel the Chosen
44 “But now listen, Jacob, my servant,
Israel, whom I have chosen.
2 This is what the Lord says—
he who made you, who formed you in the womb,
and who will help you:
Do not be afraid, Jacob, my servant,
Jeshurun,[a] whom I have chosen.
Footnotes:
a. Isaiah 44:2 Jeshurun means the upright one, that is, Israel.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Footnotes are footnotes?
Was Ephraim a part of Israel? I believe so! So what does Scripture tell us about Ephraim?
Hosea 4:17 Ephraim is joined to idols: let him alone.
A terrible indictment of Ephraim and all unbelievers! God chose Israel, and Judah out of Israel, for the purpose of bringing Jesus Christ into the world. However, much of the Old Testament is a story of the nation Israel's apostasy!
psalms109:31
Active Member
The footnotes are very helpful and I praise God for given them to me it is a part or my bible study. That is the definition of that word, but to each their own. Jesus is the upright one only in Him are born again or born from above in Him we the new creation out side of Him you are fit for destruction so I will hang on to His train to be saved. He is my salvation for there is no other name given to mankind that we must be saved.
Last edited by a moderator:
SovereignMercy
Member
Spurgeon's Quotes on this Topic:
Those particularly on Calvinism vs Arminianism and the Doctrines of Grace
On the Atonement
If Christ on His cross intended to save every man, then He intended to save those who were lost before He died. If the doctrine be true, that He died for all men, then He died for some who were in Hell before He came into this world, for doubtless there were even then myriads there who had been cast away because of their sins. . . That seems to me a conception a thousand times more repulsive than any of those consequences which are said to be associated with the Calvinistic and Christian doctrine of special and particular redemption. To think that my Savior died for men who were or are in Hell, seems a supposition too horrible for me to entertain. (Autobiography: 1, The Early Years, p. 172)
We are often told that we limit the atonement of Christ, because we say that Christ has not made satisfaction for all men, or all men would be saved. Now, our reply to this is that, on the other hand, our opponents limit it, we do not. The Arminians say, Christ died for all men. Ask them what they mean by it. Did Christ die so as to secure the salvation of all men? They say, "No, certainly not." We ask them the next question-Did Christ die so as to secure the salvation of any man in particular? They say, "No." They are obliged to admit this if they are consistent. They say, "No; Christ has died so that any man may be saved if"-and then follow certain conditions of salvation. We say then, we will just go back to the old statement-Christ did not die so as beyond a doubt to secure the salvation of anybody, did He? You must say "No;" you are obliged to say so, for you believe that even after a man has been pardoned, he may yet fall from grace and perish. Now, who is it that limits the death of Christ? Why you... We say Christ so died that He infallibly secured the salvation of a multitude that no man can number, who through Christ's death not only may be saved, but are saved, must be saved, and cannot by any possibility run the hazard of being anything but saved. You are welcome to your atonement; you may keep it. We will never renounce ours for the sake of it. (Sermon 181, New York Street Pulpit, IV, p. 135)
I would rather believe a limited atonement that is efficacious for all men for whom it was intended, than a universal atonement that is not efficacious for anybody, except the will of men be added to it. (Sermons, Vol. 4, p. 70)
A redemption which pays a price, but does not ensure that which is purchased - a redemption which calls Christ a substitute for the sinner, but yet which allows the person to suffer - is altogether unworthy of our apprehensions of Almighty God. It offers no homage to his wisdom, and does despite to his covenant faithfulness. We could not and would not receive such a travesty of divine truth as that would be. There is no ground for any comfort whatever in it. (Sermons, Vol. 49, p. 39)
On Calvinism
It is no novelty, then, that I am preaching; no new doctrine. I love to proclaim these strong old doctrines that are called by nickname Calvinism, but which are truly and verily the revealed truth of God as it is in Christ Jesus. By this truth I make my pilgrimage into the past, and as I go, I see father after father, confessor after confessor, martyr after martyr, standing up to shake hands with me . . . Taking these things to be the standard of my faith, I see the land of the ancients peopled with my brethren; I behold multitudes who confess the same as I do, and acknowledge that this is the religion of God's own church. (Spurgeon's Sovereign Grace Sermons, Still Waters Revival Books, p. 170)
When I was coming to Christ, I thought I was doing it all myself, and though I sought the Lord earnestly, I had no idea the Lord was seeking me. I do not think the young convert is at first aware of this. I can recall the very day and hour when first I received those truths in my own soul - when they were as John Bunyan says, burnt into my heart as with a hot iron; and I can recollect how I felt that I had grown all of a sudden from a babe into a man - that I had made progress in scriptural knowledge, through having found, once for all, the clue to the truth of God ... I saw that God was at the bottom of it all, and that He was the Author of my faith, and so the whole doctrine of grace opened up to me, and from that doctrine I have not departed to this day, and I desire to make this my constant confession, I ascribe my change wholly to God. (Autobiography: 1, The Early Years, Banner of Truth, p. 164-165)
I have my own opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. I do not believe we can preach the gospel if we do not preach justification by faith without works; nor unless we preach the sovereignty of God in His dispensation of grace; nor unless we exalt the electing unchangeable eternal, immutable, conquering love of Jehovah; nor do I think we can preach the gospel unless we base it upon the special and particular redemption of His elect and chosen people which Christ wrought out upon the cross. (Autobiography: 1, The Early Years, p. 168)
George Whitefield said, "We are all born Arminians." It is grace that turns us into Calvinists. (Sermons, Vol. 2, p. 124)
I do not ask whether you believe Calvinism. It is possible that you do not. But I believe you will before you enter heaven. I am persuaded that as God may have washed your hearts, He will wash your brains before you enter heaven. (Sermons, Vol. 1, p. 92)
Calvinism is the Gospel. (Sermons, Vol. 1, p. 50)
Calvinism did not spring from Calvin. We believe that it sprang from the great Founder of all truth. (Sermons, Vol. 7, p. 298)
I am not a Calvinist by choice, but because I cannot help it. (Sermons, Vol. 18, p. 692)
On Election
Rebellion against divine election is often founded on the idea that the sinner has a sort of right to be saved, and this is to deny the full desert of sin. (Sermons, Vol. 24, p.302)
You must first deny the authenticity and full inspiration of the Holy Scripture before you can legitimately and truly deny election. (Sermons, Vol. 3, p.130)
On Free Will
I will go as far as Martin Luther, where he says, "If any man ascribes anything of salvation, even the very least thing, to the free will of man, he knows nothing of grace, and he has not learned Jesus Christ rightly." Sermons, Vol. 1, p.395
We declare on scriptural authority that the human will is so desperately set on mischief, so depraved, so inclined to everything that is evil, and so disinclined to everything that is good, that without the powerful, supernatural, irresistible influence of the Holy Spirit, no human will ever be constrained toward Christ. (Sermons, Vol. 4, p.139)
I do not come into this pulpit hoping that perhaps somebody will of his own free will return to Christ. My hope lies in another quarter. I hope that my Master will lay hold of some of them and say, "You are mine, and you shall be mine. I claim you for myself." My hope arises from the freeness of grace, and not from the freedom of the will.
On Irresistible Grace
I believe that Christ came into the world not to put men into a salvable state, but into a saved state. Not to put them where they could save themselves, but to do the work in them and for them, from first to last. If I did not believe that there was might going forth with the word of Jesus which makes men willing, and which turns them from the error of their ways by the mighty, overwhelming, constraining force of divine influence, I should cease to glory in the cross of Christ. (Sermons, Vol. 3, p. 34)
A man is not saved against his will, but he is made willing by the operation of the Holy Ghost. A mighty grace which he does not wish to resist enters into the man, disarms him, makes a new creature of him, and he is saved. (Sermons, Vol. 10, p.309)
On Predestination
I question whether we have preached the whole counsel of God, unless predestination with all its solemnity and sureness be continually declared. (Sermons, Vol. 6, p. 26)
On Repentance
I learn from the Scriptures that repentance is just as necessary to salvation as faith is, and the faith that has not repentance going with it will have to be repented of. (Sermons, Vol. 46, p. 246)
Repentance is a part of salvation, and when Christ saves us, he saves us by making us repent. But repentance does not save. It is the work of God alone. (Sermons, Vol. 12, p. 198)
On Substitution
Substitution is the very marrow of the whole Bible, the soul of salvation, the essence of the gospel. We ought to saturate all our sermons with it, for it is the lifeblood of gospel ministry. (Sermons, Vol. 17, p. 544)
If you put away the doctrine of the substitutionary sacrifice of Christ, you have disembowelled the gospel, and torn from it its very heart. (Sermons, Vol. 23, p. 571)
Those particularly on Calvinism vs Arminianism and the Doctrines of Grace
On the Atonement
If Christ on His cross intended to save every man, then He intended to save those who were lost before He died. If the doctrine be true, that He died for all men, then He died for some who were in Hell before He came into this world, for doubtless there were even then myriads there who had been cast away because of their sins. . . That seems to me a conception a thousand times more repulsive than any of those consequences which are said to be associated with the Calvinistic and Christian doctrine of special and particular redemption. To think that my Savior died for men who were or are in Hell, seems a supposition too horrible for me to entertain. (Autobiography: 1, The Early Years, p. 172)
We are often told that we limit the atonement of Christ, because we say that Christ has not made satisfaction for all men, or all men would be saved. Now, our reply to this is that, on the other hand, our opponents limit it, we do not. The Arminians say, Christ died for all men. Ask them what they mean by it. Did Christ die so as to secure the salvation of all men? They say, "No, certainly not." We ask them the next question-Did Christ die so as to secure the salvation of any man in particular? They say, "No." They are obliged to admit this if they are consistent. They say, "No; Christ has died so that any man may be saved if"-and then follow certain conditions of salvation. We say then, we will just go back to the old statement-Christ did not die so as beyond a doubt to secure the salvation of anybody, did He? You must say "No;" you are obliged to say so, for you believe that even after a man has been pardoned, he may yet fall from grace and perish. Now, who is it that limits the death of Christ? Why you... We say Christ so died that He infallibly secured the salvation of a multitude that no man can number, who through Christ's death not only may be saved, but are saved, must be saved, and cannot by any possibility run the hazard of being anything but saved. You are welcome to your atonement; you may keep it. We will never renounce ours for the sake of it. (Sermon 181, New York Street Pulpit, IV, p. 135)
I would rather believe a limited atonement that is efficacious for all men for whom it was intended, than a universal atonement that is not efficacious for anybody, except the will of men be added to it. (Sermons, Vol. 4, p. 70)
A redemption which pays a price, but does not ensure that which is purchased - a redemption which calls Christ a substitute for the sinner, but yet which allows the person to suffer - is altogether unworthy of our apprehensions of Almighty God. It offers no homage to his wisdom, and does despite to his covenant faithfulness. We could not and would not receive such a travesty of divine truth as that would be. There is no ground for any comfort whatever in it. (Sermons, Vol. 49, p. 39)
On Calvinism
It is no novelty, then, that I am preaching; no new doctrine. I love to proclaim these strong old doctrines that are called by nickname Calvinism, but which are truly and verily the revealed truth of God as it is in Christ Jesus. By this truth I make my pilgrimage into the past, and as I go, I see father after father, confessor after confessor, martyr after martyr, standing up to shake hands with me . . . Taking these things to be the standard of my faith, I see the land of the ancients peopled with my brethren; I behold multitudes who confess the same as I do, and acknowledge that this is the religion of God's own church. (Spurgeon's Sovereign Grace Sermons, Still Waters Revival Books, p. 170)
When I was coming to Christ, I thought I was doing it all myself, and though I sought the Lord earnestly, I had no idea the Lord was seeking me. I do not think the young convert is at first aware of this. I can recall the very day and hour when first I received those truths in my own soul - when they were as John Bunyan says, burnt into my heart as with a hot iron; and I can recollect how I felt that I had grown all of a sudden from a babe into a man - that I had made progress in scriptural knowledge, through having found, once for all, the clue to the truth of God ... I saw that God was at the bottom of it all, and that He was the Author of my faith, and so the whole doctrine of grace opened up to me, and from that doctrine I have not departed to this day, and I desire to make this my constant confession, I ascribe my change wholly to God. (Autobiography: 1, The Early Years, Banner of Truth, p. 164-165)
I have my own opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. I do not believe we can preach the gospel if we do not preach justification by faith without works; nor unless we preach the sovereignty of God in His dispensation of grace; nor unless we exalt the electing unchangeable eternal, immutable, conquering love of Jehovah; nor do I think we can preach the gospel unless we base it upon the special and particular redemption of His elect and chosen people which Christ wrought out upon the cross. (Autobiography: 1, The Early Years, p. 168)
George Whitefield said, "We are all born Arminians." It is grace that turns us into Calvinists. (Sermons, Vol. 2, p. 124)
I do not ask whether you believe Calvinism. It is possible that you do not. But I believe you will before you enter heaven. I am persuaded that as God may have washed your hearts, He will wash your brains before you enter heaven. (Sermons, Vol. 1, p. 92)
Calvinism is the Gospel. (Sermons, Vol. 1, p. 50)
Calvinism did not spring from Calvin. We believe that it sprang from the great Founder of all truth. (Sermons, Vol. 7, p. 298)
I am not a Calvinist by choice, but because I cannot help it. (Sermons, Vol. 18, p. 692)
On Election
Rebellion against divine election is often founded on the idea that the sinner has a sort of right to be saved, and this is to deny the full desert of sin. (Sermons, Vol. 24, p.302)
You must first deny the authenticity and full inspiration of the Holy Scripture before you can legitimately and truly deny election. (Sermons, Vol. 3, p.130)
On Free Will
I will go as far as Martin Luther, where he says, "If any man ascribes anything of salvation, even the very least thing, to the free will of man, he knows nothing of grace, and he has not learned Jesus Christ rightly." Sermons, Vol. 1, p.395
We declare on scriptural authority that the human will is so desperately set on mischief, so depraved, so inclined to everything that is evil, and so disinclined to everything that is good, that without the powerful, supernatural, irresistible influence of the Holy Spirit, no human will ever be constrained toward Christ. (Sermons, Vol. 4, p.139)
I do not come into this pulpit hoping that perhaps somebody will of his own free will return to Christ. My hope lies in another quarter. I hope that my Master will lay hold of some of them and say, "You are mine, and you shall be mine. I claim you for myself." My hope arises from the freeness of grace, and not from the freedom of the will.
On Irresistible Grace
I believe that Christ came into the world not to put men into a salvable state, but into a saved state. Not to put them where they could save themselves, but to do the work in them and for them, from first to last. If I did not believe that there was might going forth with the word of Jesus which makes men willing, and which turns them from the error of their ways by the mighty, overwhelming, constraining force of divine influence, I should cease to glory in the cross of Christ. (Sermons, Vol. 3, p. 34)
A man is not saved against his will, but he is made willing by the operation of the Holy Ghost. A mighty grace which he does not wish to resist enters into the man, disarms him, makes a new creature of him, and he is saved. (Sermons, Vol. 10, p.309)
On Predestination
I question whether we have preached the whole counsel of God, unless predestination with all its solemnity and sureness be continually declared. (Sermons, Vol. 6, p. 26)
On Repentance
I learn from the Scriptures that repentance is just as necessary to salvation as faith is, and the faith that has not repentance going with it will have to be repented of. (Sermons, Vol. 46, p. 246)
Repentance is a part of salvation, and when Christ saves us, he saves us by making us repent. But repentance does not save. It is the work of God alone. (Sermons, Vol. 12, p. 198)
On Substitution
Substitution is the very marrow of the whole Bible, the soul of salvation, the essence of the gospel. We ought to saturate all our sermons with it, for it is the lifeblood of gospel ministry. (Sermons, Vol. 17, p. 544)
If you put away the doctrine of the substitutionary sacrifice of Christ, you have disembowelled the gospel, and torn from it its very heart. (Sermons, Vol. 23, p. 571)
psalms109:31
Active Member
Spurgeon also said this to know Spurgeon was a biblicists first and would not change any scripture.
"No man will ever get a right view of the gospel until he knows how to look at the two lines at once. I am taught in one book to believe that what I sow I shall reap: I am taught in another place, that "it is not of him that willeth nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy." I see in one place, God presiding over all in providence; and yet I see, and I cannot help seeing, that man acts as he pleases, and that God has left his actions to his own will, in a great measure. Now, if I were to declare that man was so free to act, that there was no presidence of God over his actions, I should be driven very near to Atheism; and if, on the other hand, I declare that God so overrules all things, as that man is not free enough to be responsible, I am driven at once into Antinomianism or fatalism. That God predestines, and that man is responsible, are two things that few can see. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory; but they are not. It is just the fault of our weak judgment. Two truths cannot be contradictory to each other. If, then, I find taught in one place that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find in another place that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is my folly that leads me to imagine that two truths can ever contradict each other. These two truths, I do not believe, can ever be welded into one upon any human anvil, but one they shall be in eternity: they are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the mind that shall pursue them farthest, will never discover that they converge; but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring."
C. H. Spurgeon
I do believe in irresistible call, but if you do not humble yourself to listen and learn from Him eat His flesh and drink His blood you would have nothing to be drawn to Him to say save me or I perish. Only those who heard the Father and learn from Him will come to Him. Jesus says to listen and learn from Him and you will find rest for your soul and Him and the Father is one. The atonement isn't for everyone there is those who walk right past it and refuse it and walk right past the messenger of it.
All you have to do is stop listen to those mockers and scoffers who didn't listen and learn and people who try to change the word of God like Spurgeon talks about here.
"What then? Shall we try to put another meaning into the text than that which it fairly bears? I trow not. You must, most of you, be acquainted with the general method in which our older Calvinistic friends deal with this text. "All men," say they,—"that is, some men": as if the Holy Ghost could not have said "some men" if he had meant some men. "All men," say they; "that is, some of all sorts of men": as if the Lord could not have said "all sorts of men" if he had meant that. The Holy Ghost by the apostle has written "all men," and unquestionably he means all men. I know how to get rid of the force of the "alls" according to that critical method which some time ago was very current, but I do not see how it can be applied here with due regard to truth. I was reading just now the exposition of a very able doctor who explains the text so as to explain it away; he applies grammatical gunpowder to it, and explodes it by way of expounding it. I thought when I read his exposition that it would have been a very capital comment upon the text if it had read, "Who will not have all men to be saved, nor come to a knowledge of the truth." Had such been the inspired language every remark of the learned doctor would have been exactly in keeping, but as it happens to say, "Who will have all men to be saved," his observations are more than a little out of place. My love of consistency with my own doctrinal views is not great enough to allow me knowingly to alter a single text of Scripture. I have great respect for orthodoxy, but my reverence for inspiration is far greater. I would sooner a hundred times over appear to be inconsistent with myself than be inconsistent with the word of God. I never thought it to be any very great crime to seem to be inconsistent with myself; for who am I that I should everlastingly be consistent? But I do think it a great crime to be so inconsistent with the word of God that I should want to lop away a bough or even a twig from so much as a single tree of the forest of Scripture. God forbid that I should cut or shape, even in the least degree, any divine expression. So runs the text, and so we must read it, "God our Savior; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."
C. H. Spurgeon
and come to the knowledge of the truth Jesus Christ.
"My dear friends, I beseech you do not in any way give yourselves lip to any system of faith apart from the Word of God. The Bible, and the Bible alone, is the religion of Protestants; I am the successor of the great and venerated Dr. Gill, whose theology is almost universally received among the stronger Calvinistic churches; but although I venerate his memory, and believe his teachings, yet he is not my Rabbi."
C.H. Spurgeon
Who is your rabbi?
This is what Spurgeoen said about free will
"Freedom cannot belong to will any more than ponderability can belong to electricity. They are altogether different things. Free agency we may believe in, but free-will is simply ridiculous. The will is well known by all to be directed by the understanding, to be moved by motives, to be guided by other parts of the soul, and to be a secondary thing."
Jesus said this
John 6:38
For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.
Luke 22:42
“Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.”
There is only our will and His will our will leads to death His will leads to life eternal.
So we must say not my will but your will be done and repent and live.
"No man will ever get a right view of the gospel until he knows how to look at the two lines at once. I am taught in one book to believe that what I sow I shall reap: I am taught in another place, that "it is not of him that willeth nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy." I see in one place, God presiding over all in providence; and yet I see, and I cannot help seeing, that man acts as he pleases, and that God has left his actions to his own will, in a great measure. Now, if I were to declare that man was so free to act, that there was no presidence of God over his actions, I should be driven very near to Atheism; and if, on the other hand, I declare that God so overrules all things, as that man is not free enough to be responsible, I am driven at once into Antinomianism or fatalism. That God predestines, and that man is responsible, are two things that few can see. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory; but they are not. It is just the fault of our weak judgment. Two truths cannot be contradictory to each other. If, then, I find taught in one place that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find in another place that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is my folly that leads me to imagine that two truths can ever contradict each other. These two truths, I do not believe, can ever be welded into one upon any human anvil, but one they shall be in eternity: they are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the mind that shall pursue them farthest, will never discover that they converge; but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring."
C. H. Spurgeon
I do believe in irresistible call, but if you do not humble yourself to listen and learn from Him eat His flesh and drink His blood you would have nothing to be drawn to Him to say save me or I perish. Only those who heard the Father and learn from Him will come to Him. Jesus says to listen and learn from Him and you will find rest for your soul and Him and the Father is one. The atonement isn't for everyone there is those who walk right past it and refuse it and walk right past the messenger of it.
All you have to do is stop listen to those mockers and scoffers who didn't listen and learn and people who try to change the word of God like Spurgeon talks about here.
"What then? Shall we try to put another meaning into the text than that which it fairly bears? I trow not. You must, most of you, be acquainted with the general method in which our older Calvinistic friends deal with this text. "All men," say they,—"that is, some men": as if the Holy Ghost could not have said "some men" if he had meant some men. "All men," say they; "that is, some of all sorts of men": as if the Lord could not have said "all sorts of men" if he had meant that. The Holy Ghost by the apostle has written "all men," and unquestionably he means all men. I know how to get rid of the force of the "alls" according to that critical method which some time ago was very current, but I do not see how it can be applied here with due regard to truth. I was reading just now the exposition of a very able doctor who explains the text so as to explain it away; he applies grammatical gunpowder to it, and explodes it by way of expounding it. I thought when I read his exposition that it would have been a very capital comment upon the text if it had read, "Who will not have all men to be saved, nor come to a knowledge of the truth." Had such been the inspired language every remark of the learned doctor would have been exactly in keeping, but as it happens to say, "Who will have all men to be saved," his observations are more than a little out of place. My love of consistency with my own doctrinal views is not great enough to allow me knowingly to alter a single text of Scripture. I have great respect for orthodoxy, but my reverence for inspiration is far greater. I would sooner a hundred times over appear to be inconsistent with myself than be inconsistent with the word of God. I never thought it to be any very great crime to seem to be inconsistent with myself; for who am I that I should everlastingly be consistent? But I do think it a great crime to be so inconsistent with the word of God that I should want to lop away a bough or even a twig from so much as a single tree of the forest of Scripture. God forbid that I should cut or shape, even in the least degree, any divine expression. So runs the text, and so we must read it, "God our Savior; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."
C. H. Spurgeon
and come to the knowledge of the truth Jesus Christ.
"My dear friends, I beseech you do not in any way give yourselves lip to any system of faith apart from the Word of God. The Bible, and the Bible alone, is the religion of Protestants; I am the successor of the great and venerated Dr. Gill, whose theology is almost universally received among the stronger Calvinistic churches; but although I venerate his memory, and believe his teachings, yet he is not my Rabbi."
C.H. Spurgeon
Who is your rabbi?
This is what Spurgeoen said about free will
"Freedom cannot belong to will any more than ponderability can belong to electricity. They are altogether different things. Free agency we may believe in, but free-will is simply ridiculous. The will is well known by all to be directed by the understanding, to be moved by motives, to be guided by other parts of the soul, and to be a secondary thing."
Jesus said this
John 6:38
For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.
Luke 22:42
“Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.”
There is only our will and His will our will leads to death His will leads to life eternal.
So we must say not my will but your will be done and repent and live.
Last edited by a moderator:
jonathan.borland
Active Member
Good thing Jesus enlightens every man and the Holy Spirit convicts the world to elicit a response of belief of unbelief, else would no man be saved. So glad the grace that brings salvation appears to every man and not just Calvies. So glad God is so good to us sinners every one, but terrifying judgment awaits those who stubbornly reject the HS's conviction. And so glad it is not God rejecting or accepting himself through his predetermining, although he could do that if he willed, and be just and righteous just as when he took Ezekiel's wife. Chapters 33-34 of Exekiel are so precious. Let those who take pride in their perceived righteousness beware.
Last edited by a moderator:
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Let those who take pride in their supposed "free will" repent!
jonathan.borland
Active Member
Hey, I think the warning in Ez. 33-34 (and Rom 9-11 for that matter) is directly applicable to everyone who focuses on their perceived elect state when their lifestyles are contrary to God. I didn't mean it as a knock on either side of the Calvie/Arminie debate, but I can see now that it could have been taken that way. Sorry. I mean it as a warning to everyone inside and outside the debate. I was just reading and pondering these verses lately and they happened to come out perhaps at the wrong time. I'm glad you followed your free will and chimed in though.
jonathan.borland
Active Member
My father-in-law (dear man of God, now with the Lord) would always ask me if I was "regular," and of course he meant regular with regard to BMs. I'm assuming you've been pretty regular for a long time. That's great. My Father in Law would have loved you.
Your repeating of this error on several different threads does not change the meaning or your failure to understand the verses.There have been multitudes that have lived and died without saving light, Millions are in hell tonight waiting for millions to follow who trust in a false hope.
jonathan.borland
Active Member
Obviously that light is not saving, and I never said it was. The HS is powerful enough to convict sinners, and the light of the world who enlightens every man bright enough, to bring sinners to a response the HS's convicting work, whether yea or nay.