praying = speaking to God

[awaken]

I am opening this thread up again on tongues because DHK said I have not defended my position on "praying in the spirit." I believe I have over and over!

I want to make this plain before I start, because I have been accused of being arrogant concerning the manifestation of the Spirirt. Those that speak in tongues are not better than those that don't.

Paul makes it clear in 1 Corinthians 14..the gift of tongues should be a rare occurrence in worship service. He limited its use to three times in a gathering and required that each speak separately. Also an interpreter was required.

In spite of all the precautions cited in 1 Cor. 14 having to do with the practice of tongues, Paul strongly warned the enemies of freedom, "Do not forbid to speak with tongues" (1 Cor. 14:39). He also declared, "I speak in tongues more than you all" (1 Cor. 14:18).

There are many benefits of a private prayer language and satan want to keep us ignorant of this.

THe first mention of tongues is in Mark 16
"And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well." (Mark 16:17-18)

Most of this is going to be repeating because I feel I have explained it before why I believe what I do. I would like to discuss Mark 16 throughly!
Notice in Mark 16:17-18 (above) that according to Jesus, speaking in tongues is not a subject of controversy, but instead it's for every believer. Neither Jesus nor the writers of Scripture ever canceled this promise or limited it to the first century, and therefore this promise is still in effect. Obviously not every Christian speaks in tongues, but this doesn't change the fact that Jesus' promise is still available to "those who believe."

It does not say some believers or just the apostles! Lets just stick with tongues on this verse for now so we will not chase to many rabbits.

Speaking in tongues is still available to Christians today, which leaves open the possibility that "praying in the Spirit" means "praying in tongues."

Through this debate I would like to stick just to this aspect of tongues.

One more note: Jesus nor the writers of Scripture ever described two Churches, meaning an "early Church" (which ended when the New Testament was completed) and a "modern Church," so these terms are misleading. There is only one Church, and only one Church Age, and only one body of Christ, and therefore we are part of the same New Testament Church that was born at Pentecost.

 

[billwald]

I have no problem with any kind of praying between you and God in private. Bible teaches that any public revelation of a communication from God must be verified by a third party.

 

[awaken]

"When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them." (Acts 2:1-4)

Here are some of the important points in this passage:
First let's determine who spoke in tongues on the day of Pentecost. Acts 1:15 tells us that there were a total of about 120 believers, and from Acts 1:15 to Acts 2:1 the words "they" and "them" most likely refer to the 120 believers. There were many average, ordinary Christians who spoke in tongues in the New Testament, so there's no reason to assume that only the apostles spoke in tongues on the day of Pentecost.

Who were the 120 believers talking to when they spoke in tongues? Notice that they were all together in one place, then they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and they all began speaking in tongues. Since they were all speaking in foreign languages, they could not have understood each other. Therefore, they were not talking to one another, but notice that there was no-one else around at this point for them to be talking to. They were talking to God and praising Him in tongues in the Holy Spirit, which is one of the primary purposes for tongues:

"If you are praising God with your spirit, how can one who finds himself among those who do not understand say "Amen" to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying?" (1 Corinthians 14:16)

On the day of Pentecost the disciples were talking to God in the Holy Spirit. They were praying in the Spirit.

How much clearer does it have to get?... there is so much more in scriptures that confirms this!

 

[mont974x4]

Kinds of Tongues

“Kinds” is a pretty straight forward word. It refers to a classification or grouping of something. German is a kind of person, based on nationality. It is also a language or type of food as those relate to the culture of the people of that nation. A black lab would be an example of a kind of dog. “Tongues” refers to a known intelligible language. In the case of the spiritual gift it is the Holy Spirit enabling a person to speak in a language that is totally foreign to them. An example can be found on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:4, 11).

Kinds
G1085
γένος
genos
ghen'-os
From G1096; “kin” (abstractly or concretely, literally or figuratively, individually or collectively): - born, country (-man), diversity, generation, kind (-red), nation, offspring, stock.

Found in:
Mat. 13:47; 17:21
Mark 7:26; 9:29
Acts 4:6,36; 7:13,19; 13:26; 18:2,24
1Co. 12:10,28; 14:10
2Co. 11:26
Gal. 1:14
Php. 3:5
1Pe. 2:9
Rev. 22:16;


Tongues
G1100
γλῶσσα
glōssa
gloce'-sah
Of uncertain affinity; the tongue; by implication a language (specifically one naturally unacquired): - tongue.

Found in:
Mark 7:33,35; 16:17
Luke 1:64; 16:24
Acts 2:3,4,11,26; 10:46; 19:6
Rom. 3:13; 14:11
1Co. 12:10,28,30; 13:1,8; 14:2,4,5,6,9,13,14,18,19,22,23,26,27,39
Php. 2:11; Jas. 1:26; 3:5,6,8
1Pe. 3:10
1Jn. 3:18
Rev. 5:9; 7:9; 10:11; 11:9; 13:7; 14:6; 16:10; 17:15;


There is no biblical support for speaking in gibberish, or praying in an unknown language.

 

[awaken]

Kinds of Tongues

“Kinds” is a pretty straight forward word. It refers to a classification or grouping of something. German is a kind of person, based on nationality. It is also a language or type of food as those relate to the culture of the people of that nation. A black lab would be an example of a kind of dog. “Tongues” refers to a known intelligible language. In the case of the spiritual gift it is the Holy Spirit enabling a person to speak in a language that is totally foreign to them. An example can be found on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:4, 11).

Kinds
G1085
γένος
genos
ghen'-os
From G1096; “kin” (abstractly or concretely, literally or figuratively, individually or collectively): - born, country (-man), diversity, generation, kind (-red), nation, offspring, stock.

Found in:
Mat. 13:47; 17:21
Mark 7:26; 9:29
Acts 4:6,36; 7:13,19; 13:26; 18:2,24
1Co. 12:10,28; 14:10
2Co. 11:26
Gal. 1:14
Php. 3:5
1Pe. 2:9
Rev. 22:16;


Tongues
G1100
γλῶσσα
glōssa
gloce'-sah
Of uncertain affinity; the tongue; by implication a language (specifically one naturally unacquired): - tongue.

Found in:
Mark 7:33,35; 16:17
Luke 1:64; 16:24
Acts 2:3,4,11,26; 10:46; 19:6
Rom. 3:13; 14:11
1Co. 12:10,28,30; 13:1,8; 14:2,4,5,6,9,13,14,18,19,22,23,26,27,39
Php. 2:11; Jas. 1:26; 3:5,6,8
1Pe. 3:10
1Jn. 3:18
Rev. 5:9; 7:9; 10:11; 11:9; 13:7; 14:6; 16:10; 17:15;


There is no biblical support for speaking in gibberish, or praying in an unknown language.

I agreed til the last sentence. I do believe that tongues is a language. But it is speaking to God!

 

[awaken]

I can go down the list of all the scriptures where tongues is mentioned in Acts and each time they ALL spoke in tongues. Each time they were not speaking to people in tongues..they were magnifying God. Speaking to God.

 

[awaken]

"For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God." (1 Corinthians 14:2)
So when people spoke in tongues in the above passages, they were praying directly to God in the Holy Spirit. In other words, the communication was going from earth up to heaven.

If only this scripture was posted it would be proof enough! No way around this one! It is very plain...speaking in tongues is speaking to God..not men!

 

[mont974x4]

The only way we can say they were speaking some non-human language is if we read into the passages something that is not supported by the text. Keep it context, brother.

 

[awaken]

The only way we can say they were speaking some non-human language is if we read into the passages something that is not supported by the text. Keep it context, brother.

I have never said it was not a known language! I believe tongues is a known language. Just not one that the speaker himself knows.

 

[DHK]

I have never said it was not a known language! I believe tongues is a known language. Just not one that the speaker himself knows.

1Cor.14:2 is a rebuke. It is given to ALL that are in the church at Corinth. It is public. Paul is addressing everyone. The language being spoken would be a language that IS understood. The word "unknown" is in italics. It is not in the Greek. It was put in there by the KJV translators because they thought it would make better sense, but it only confused things more. They spoke in languages; known languages. If you spoke in a language you would know what language it was. You would simply not have studied it previously to speaking it. But once you speak it you know what you are speaking. Don't be fooled by all this satanic jibberish. Languages are real and known. That is what was spoken. If you were there you would recognize the language spoken. That was the purpose--edification. If it wouldn't edify, then don't speak it--whether at home or in the church.

Paul said if there is no understanding in the church don't speak (in tongues.)

God said "thou shalt not murder" (in church).
But its ok to murder at home, right?
If it is wrong in church it is still wrong at home--in both cases.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

I have never said it was not a known language! I believe tongues is a known language. Just not one that the speaker himself knows.

In all my years of experience with tongue-talkers, I have only heard one person speak in what I considered another language, and that was my sister, whom I know and trust. Every other tongue-talking I have ever heard was nothing more than gibberish and babbling, something like my young granddaughter would do.

I once heard a speaker trying to lead a woman to tongue-talk by getting her to start saying, "da da da da", to loosen up her tongue and yield it to the Holy Spirit. Sorry, but the HS does not need priming, like the way you would prime a pump! All of this is just so much bull and vainglory!

Having said that, I am not judging your experience; after all, I do not know you.

 

[The Biblicist]

that "praying in the Spirit" means "praying in tongues."

You are robbing and distorting the concept of "in the Spirit" from what it really means. This is not a Post-Pentecost concept but a concept applicable in all ages to all saints. One either operates "in the flesh" and thus "after the flesh" or they operate "in the Spirit." This has to do with ones "walk":


"If we LIVE in the Spirit let us ALSO WALK in the Spirit" - Gal. 5;25


Whether, it is speaking (prayer, preaching, singing, talking, etc.) or what we do with our bodies, whatever we do should be done to the glory of God and the ONLY way that can be done, the only way possible is to do what we do "in the Spirit."

Second, when Paul spoke of praying in tongues he did so in the context of its Biblical design (1 Cor. 14:17-22). You cannot claim that speaking in tongues inclusive of praying in tongues is not immediately being considered in 1 Cor. 14:17-22. Paul is correcting their use of tongues not commending them and in this correction he provides the Bibical design for tongues, praying in tongues and any other vocalization of tongues.

It's spiritual mature and Biblical design is a "sign" to a special class of lost people who are very learned in the scriptures - the Jews. This is why Paul will not use it in the congregation. This is why he places such restrictions upon it in the congregation.

Third, tongues CEASE before the gifts of prophecy and knowledge cease (1 Cor. 13:8-10. So you can claim that prophecy and knowledge cease with the coming of Christ if you like (I don't think so) but tongues cease PRIOR to that simply because God's design for them is accomplished. Paul gives no other Biblical purpose for tongues other than a "sign" TO THIS PEOPLE who are in Jerusalem - the Jews. He does not say tongues are to help your prayer life or signing in tongues is to help your singing life or any other manner of vocalization of tongues is for your own benefit.

 

[The Biblicist]

"When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them." (Acts 2:1-4)

Therefore, they were not talking to one another, but notice that there was no-one else around at this point for them to be talking to. They were talking to God and praising Him in tongues in the Holy Spirit, which is one of the primary purposes for tongues:

Why stop at verse 4?? You are assuming the tongue speaking began instantly while they were secluded rather than in verses 5-7 where others did hear them and reported what they heard. He is listing a series of events but does not say the tongue speaking occurred within the room - that is your assumption.

Furthermore, the text does not say they were speaking to or praising God but rather what others heard was about "the wonderful works of God."

"If you are praising God with your spirit, how can one who finds himself among those who do not understand say "Amen" to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying?" (1 Corinthians 14:16)

You have carefully selected a translation of 1 Cor. 14:16 to fit your subjective bias. Paul concern is how can the hearer say "Amen" which means a prayer or asking God for a blessing is in view rather than a personal praise worship service going on between the speaker and God. You arbritrarily insist the tongue speaker is praising God rather than intercessary or supplicational prayer is occurring. You have no basis to make that distinction.

 

[annsni]

There are many benefits of a private prayer language and satan want to keep us ignorant of this.

THe first mention of tongues is in Mark 16
"And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well." (Mark 16:17-18)

I find it interesting that you use a passage of public signs to support a "private" prayer language. If it's "private" it's not a sign.

 

[The Biblicist]

Speaking in tongues is still available to Christians today, .

Here is the crux of your error. The Bible flatly denies that tongues is available for ALL Christians then or now - 1 Cor. 12:29-30.

The Holy Spirit soverengly bestows tongues on whom He willls (1 Cor. 12:11) and that statement makes no sense if all these gifts were available to all Christians as you cannot arbritrarily select one of the gifts out of all those listed in 1 Cor. 12:29 or 1 Cor. 12:7-11 and claim it is available to all while the others are not.

14 ¶ Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen......
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19 ¶ So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Heb. 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

In both of the above passages it is the ones who actually heard Christ that are in view not you or me or Christians in general yet future.

Second, in both cases it is spoken of in the PAST TENSE completed action as already fulfilled.

Third, in both cases the purpose of sign gifts is clearly stated as confirmation, bearing witness to the word THEY spoke not what WE speak. Take note that the writer of Hebews does not include Himself or the Hebrew Christians in this miraculous confirming work.

 

[annsni]

"When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them." (Acts 2:1-4)

Here are some of the important points in this passage:
First let's determine who spoke in tongues on the day of Pentecost. Acts 1:15 tells us that there were a total of about 120 believers, and from Acts 1:15 to Acts 2:1 the words "they" and "them" most likely refer to the 120 believers. There were many average, ordinary Christians who spoke in tongues in the New Testament, so there's no reason to assume that only the apostles spoke in tongues on the day of Pentecost.

Who were the 120 believers talking to when they spoke in tongues? Notice that they were all together in one place, then they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and they all began speaking in tongues. Since they were all speaking in foreign languages, they could not have understood each other. Therefore, they were not talking to one another, but notice that there was no-one else around at this point for them to be talking to. They were talking to God and praising Him in tongues in the Holy Spirit, which is one of the primary purposes for tongues:

"If you are praising God with your spirit, how can one who finds himself among those who do not understand say "Amen" to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying?" (1 Corinthians 14:16)

On the day of Pentecost the disciples were talking to God in the Holy Spirit. They were praying in the Spirit.

How much clearer does it have to get?... there is so much more in scriptures that confirms this!

Wow - you really do miss reading the whole of Scripture and proof-text, don't you? Read on and we see that men heard the wonderous works of God in their own languages (thus is blows out of the water the "private prayer language" argument) and asked about God. God used it as a way to spread His word to those around them.

 

[awaken]

1Cor.14:2 is a rebuke. It is given to ALL that are in the church at Corinth. It is public. Paul is addressing everyone. The language being spoken would be a language that IS understood. The word "unknown" is in italics. It is not in the Greek. It was put in there by the KJV translators because they thought it would make better sense, but it only confused things more. They spoke in languages; known languages. If you spoke in a language you would know what language it was. You would simply not have studied it previously to speaking it. But once you speak it you know what you are speaking. Don't be fooled by all this satanic jibberish. Languages are real and known. That is what was spoken. If you were there you would recognize the language spoken. That was the purpose--edification. If it wouldn't edify, then don't speak it--whether at home or in the church.

Paul said if there is no understanding in the church don't speak (in tongues.)

God said "thou shalt not murder" (in church).
But its ok to murder at home, right?
If it is wrong in church it is still wrong at home--in both cases.

Your examples show your desperate to prove your theory!

 

[awaken]

In all my years of experience with tongue-talkers, I have only heard one person speak in what I considered another language, and that was my sister, whom I know and trust. Every other tongue-talking I have ever heard was nothing more than gibberish and babbling, something like my young granddaughter would do.

I once heard a speaker trying to lead a woman to tongue-talk by getting her to start saying, "da da da da", to loosen up her tongue and yield it to the Holy Spirit. Sorry, but the HS does not need priming, like the way you would prime a pump! All of this is just so much bull and vainglory!

Having said that, I am not judging your experience; after all, I do not know you.

Thank you for not judging. All we can do as believers is share the gospel...we can coax anyone into excepting it. That is every aspect of the gospel! Salvation can be shared but to lead one into a false prayer is not scriptural.
Tongues can be shared but to coax one into speaking a language unlearned is unbiblical. Nowhere in scriptures does is say they were coaxed into either!

 

[awaken]

You are robbing and distorting the concept of "in the Spirit" from what it really means. This is not a Post-Pentecost concept but a concept applicable in all ages to all saints. One either operates "in the flesh" and thus "after the flesh" or they operate "in the Spirit." This has to do with ones "walk":


"If we LIVE in the Spirit let us ALSO WALK in the Spirit" - Gal. 5;25


Whether, it is speaking (prayer, preaching, singing, talking, etc.) or what we do with our bodies, whatever we do should be done to the glory of God and the ONLY way that can be done, the only way possible is to do what we do "in the Spirit."

Second, when Paul poke of praying in tongues he did so in the context of its Biblical design (1 Cor. 14:17-22). You cannot claim that speaking in tongues inclusive of praying in tongues is no the immediately being considered in 1 Cor. 14:17-22. Paul is correcting their use of tongues not commending them and in this correction he provides the Bibical design for tongues, praying in tongues and any other vocalization of tongues.

It's spiritual mature Biblical design is a "sign" to a special class of lost people who are very learned in the scriptures - the Jews. This is why Paul will not use it in the congregation. This is why he places such restrictions upon it in the congregation.

Third, tongues CEASE before the gifts of prophecy and knowledge cease (1 Cor. 13:8-10. So you can claim that prophecy and knowledge cease with the coming of Christ if you like (I don't think so) but tongues cease PRIOR to that simply because God's design for them is accomplished. Paul gives no other Biblical purpose for tongues other than a "sign" TO THIS PEOPLE who are in Jerusalem - the Jews. He does not say tongues are to help your prayer life or signing in tongues is to help your singing life or any other manner of vocalization of tongues is for your own benefit.

I have debated this issue with you and I thought we just agreed to disagree!
Explain 1 Cor. 14 2 when it says speaking in tongues is speaking to God.
Don't dance around it! It is very plain!

 

[Tom Butler]

This is a drive-by post, because y'all are doing just fine without me.

My question is, if you pray in tongues, or your private prayer language, do you ever wonder what you just said?