praying = speaking to God

[The Biblicist]

Your examples show your desperate to prove your theory!

No, what he says is factual. The term "unknown" is in italics and the KJV translators inserted it. When tongues are used for some other purpose than what they are designed for they are unknown to the listeners because the listeners do not speak those known languages. That is precisely what occurred in Corinth. They were taking a MISSIONARY GIFT FOR THE JEWS and bringing it into the congregation to show off their own personal abilities.

The fact is that you take the plural "tongues" in 1 Cor. 12:29 and try to claim it does not comprehend that gift but rather refers to only one aspect of that gift. You talk about ABRITRARY interpretation, that takes the cake!

Paul lists other gifts along with "tongues" in 1 Cor. 12:7-11 and 1 Cor. 12:29-30 and there is no DOUBLE provided as though there are two different types of tongues and yet you arbritrarily attempt to make that distinction due solely to your own subjective experience.

The fact is that tongues are not for all believers. Mark 16 does not state it is for all believers. Mark 16 simply lists things that "shall" follow without stating or demanding that all these things will follows each and every believer.

 

[Jerome]

'Awaken' claims: "there was no-one else around at this point for them to be talking to"

But the Bible says: "when this sound was heard, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speaking in his own language"

 

[The Biblicist]

I have debated this issue with you and I thought we just agreed to disagree!

Why bring it up again then? I didn't start another thread on it - you did!

Explain 1 Cor. 14 2 when it says speaking in tongues is speaking to God.
Don't dance around it! It is very plain!

That text must be interpeted by the immediate context, which is something you are unwilling to do! Hence, you do not have ears to hear the truth.

In context, the corinthians are abusing the gift of tongues. Can you agree to that basic premise?

Their abuses are many. They are violating the principle of love (v. 1). They are violating the principle of edification and creating absolute confusion by their improper use of tongues.

Part of this "confusion" is not merely all speaking at the same time but these languages are foreign to those in a church context of beleivers and thus unknown to them. Hence, GOD ALONE understands and the speakers have no other audiance that comprehends what they are saying in this context other than God. Paul is not commending this but condemning it while YOU are not only commending it but attempting to argue that this is the one and only proper audiance for tongues - God.

They are failing to understand the proper Biblical design for the gift of tongues and use it accordingly (1 Cor. 14:19-21). The proper use is according to its Biblical design which is a "sign" for "THIS PEOPLE" who are the Jews - those lost people who are very LEARNED in the Old Testament Scriptures.

What you are speaking is esctatic utterances which is the common variety found in all world religions.

 

[awaken]

This is a drive-by post, because y'all are doing just fine without me.

My question is, if you pray in tongues, or your private prayer language, do you ever wonder what you just said?

Yes! and He will give the interpretation in your spirit! We are told in 1 Cor. 14 if we PRAY in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. vs. 13 We are told to pray that we may interpret.

 

[mont974x4]

In an effort to justify your belief you have totally missed the point of 1 Cor 14 and ignored the context.

 

[awaken]

I find it interesting that you use a passage of public signs to support a "private" prayer language. If it's "private" it's not a sign.

Would it not be sign that what Jesus promised them in Acts 1:8 has come to pass?

 

[The Biblicist]

Would it not be sign that what Jesus promised them in Acts 1:8 has come to pass?

Here is the very crux of your error. The only place in scripture where tongues are being directly addressed and their improper and proper use are being explained is in 1 Cor. 14. It is in that context of correction that we find the only Biblical explanation for the gift of tongues - 1 Cor. 14:20-22.

It is a "sign" given by God to "THIS PEOPLE" or Israel. Isaiah 28:11-15 is clear that it is the designated "sign" by God to unbelieving Israel that Jesus is the promised rest. It was used for unbelieving Jews in Acts 2. It was used for Jews who were unbelief about gentiles being fit for church membership in a all Jewish congregation in Acts 10-11. It was used as a sign before Jews in Acts 19:6-7 and that is its purpose reaffirmed by Paul in 1 Cor. 14:20-22.

It was not given as a sign to believers (1 Cor. 14:22-23) and so it was not given to the 120 in Acts 2:1-4 as a "sign" to them but to those unbelieving Jews in Acts 2.

It was not given to "believers" for self-edification or private pray. It does not produce a more spiritual pray life. Jesus did not pray in tongues and do you think your prayer life is more spiritual than his? John the Baptist was identified by Christ as the greatest man born of woman but no praying in tongues and yet he was filled with the Spirit, no miracles, no signs and wonders and yet he was spiritual.

Miracles signs and wonders do not produce spirituality and that is exactly what you are trying to palm off on this forum that praying in tongues produces a more "spiritual" form of praying.

 

[awaken]

Here is the crux of your error. The Bible flatly denies that tongues is available for ALL Christians then or now - 1 Cor. 12:29-30.

Where your crux of error is, Sir..is that you are taking 12-14 out of context. Paul is correcting church worship service. When they gather together. Not everyone is called to speak in tongues in a worship service.

The Holy Spirit soverengly bestows tongues on whom He willls (1 Cor. 12:11) and that statement makes no sense if all these gifts were available to all Christians as you cannot arbritrarily select one of the gifts out of all those listed in 1 Cor. 12:29 or 1 Cor. 12:7-11 and claim it is available to all while the others are not.

Keep it in context! During a worship service!

14 ¶ Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen......
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19 ¶ So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Heb. 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

In both of the above passages it is the ones who actually heard Christ that are in view not you or me or Christians in general yet future.

Second, in both cases it is spoken of in the PAST TENSE completed action as already fulfilled.

Then in your interpretation those that believe in the future will not be saved. Because in vs. 16 It says those that believeth and is baptized shall be saved..

Third, in both cases the purpose of sign gifts is clearly stated as confirmation, bearing witness to the word THEY spoke not what WE speak. Take note that the writer of Hebews does not include Himself or the Hebrew Christians in this miraculous confirming work.

One reason that this argument is erroneous is because few of the apostles wrote any of the books of the New Testament, and many of the books were written by people who were not apostles.

Another obvious flaw in this argument is that signs and miracles and spiritual gifts were not limited to the apostles:


"Now Stephen, a man full of God's grace and power, did great wonders and miraculous signs among the people." (Acts 6:8)

"When the crowds heard Philip and saw the miraculous signs he did, they all paid close attention to what he said. With shrieks, evil spirits came out of many, and many paralytics and cripples were healed." (Acts 8:6-7)

"During this time some prophets came down from Jerusalem to Antioch. One of them, named Agabus, stood up and through the Spirit predicted that a severe famine would spread over the entire Roman world. (This happened during the reign of Claudius.)" (Acts 11:27-28)

"Leaving the next day, we reached Caesarea and stayed at the house of Philip the evangelist, one of the Seven. He had four unmarried daughters who prophesied." (Acts 21:8-9)

Some people believe that the miraculous gifts of the Spirit were given to the apostles in order to confirm their authority, yet all of these other people (above) had miraculous gifts as well. And Paul specifically pointed out that all of the gifts of the Spirit were present in the church at Corinth (1 Corinthians 1:7).

Not only did these people (who were not apostles) prophesy and do amazing signs and wonders through the Holy Spirit, but at Pentecost the apostle Peter said that according to God's Word all Christians have the opportunity to do similar things:

"Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: ... "'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy."" (Acts 2:14-18)

God specifically said that He will pour out His Spirit on all types of people, and notice that He did not put any time limit on this. God did not say "I will pour out my Spirit for 60 or 70 years until the last apostle has died." Instead, God said that He will pour out His Spirit on people regardless of gender, age, social position, or time period.

 

[awaken]

Wow - you really do miss reading the whole of Scripture and proof-text, don't you? Read on and we see that men heard the wonderous works of God in their own languages (thus is blows out of the water the "private prayer language" argument) and asked about God. God used it as a way to spread His word to those around them.

"All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them. Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. Utterly amazed, they asked: "Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans? Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language? Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs-- we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!" Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, "What does this mean?"" (Acts 2:4-12)

Notice the sequence of events here: 120 believers all began rejoicing and praising God in tongues at the same time. This noise drew a crowd. The people in the crowd recognized their native languages being spoken.

This crowd did not gather until they heard the noise of 120 people all talking at the same time and rejoicing and praising God. Many Christians assume that when the disciples spoke in tongues at Pentecost it was for the purpose of witnessing to this crowd in their native languages, but in reality the disciples were not talking to the crowd at all. The disciples were all together in a house, rejoicing and praising God in different languages.

The people in the crowd said, "we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!" In other words, the disciples were praising God, telling Him of His wonders, as in Psalms 40:5 and 66:3:

"Many, O LORD my God, are the wonders you have done. The things you planned for us no one can recount to you; were I to speak and tell of them, they would be too many to declare." (Psalms 40:5)

"Say to God, "How awesome are your deeds! So great is your power that your enemies cringe before you."" (Psalms 66:3)

Why were the disciples praising God in tongues? Because this is one of the primary purposes for tongues:

"If you are praising God with your spirit, how can one who finds himself among those who do not understand say "Amen" to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying?" (1 Corinthians 14:16)

On the day of Pentecost the disciples were talking to God in the Holy Spirit (they were praying in the Spirit), they were not sharing the Gospel in tongues.

Even non-charismatic commentaries agree that the disciples were praising God in tongues and not sharing the Gospel. For example, The Bible Knowledge Commentary (Walvoord and Zuck, Dallas Theological Seminary, p.358) says this:
"The topic the people discussed in all these languages was the wonders of God. It seems they were praising God. Their message was not one of repentance; it was not the gospel." (emphasis added)

The disciples were praising God in the Holy Spirit. Bible teachers talk about different types of prayer, such as the prayer of repentance, the prayer of consecration, the prayer of thanksgiving, the prayer of praise, and so on. The disciples were giving God the prayer of praise in the Holy Spirit. They were praying in the Spirit.

Notice that the purpose for tongues at Pentecost was not for sharing the Gospel with foreigners in their native languages. In fact, nowhere does the New Testament say that speaking in tongues is for witnessing to foreigners.

Now let's take a close look at the crowd which had gathered in the above passage. These were Jews from other nations who were in Jerusalem during the festival of Pentecost, and they were able to speak to one another in a common language because they said to each other, "how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language?" Many commentaries suggest that these Jews all spoke Greek (the common language of the time), although Hebrew is another strong possibility. These Jews were living in Jerusalem for some period of time and they all knew a common language, and they were able to speak to each other and understand each other. These people did not need to be told the Gospel in their own native languages, and that was not the purpose for speaking in tongues at Pentecost.

 

[mont974x4]

What translation of the Bible are you using?


Act 2:1 When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place.
Act 2:2 And suddenly there came from heaven a noise like a violent rushing wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.
Act 2:3 And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them.
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.
Act 2:5 Now there were Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven.
Act 2:6 And when this sound occurred, the crowd came together, and were bewildered because each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language.
Act 2:7 They were amazed and astonished, saying, "Why, are not all these who are speaking Galileans?
Act 2:8 "And how is it that we each hear them in our own language to which we were born?
Act 2:9 "Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,
Act 2:10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the districts of Libya around Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes,
Act 2:11 Cretans and Arabs--we hear them in our own tongues speaking of the mighty deeds of God."
Act 2:12 And they all continued in amazement and great perplexity, saying to one another, "What does this mean?"
Act 2:13 But others were mocking and saying, "They are full of sweet wine."
Act 2:14 But Peter, taking his stand with the eleven, raised his voice and declared to them: "Men of Judea and all you who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you and give heed to my words.
Act 2:15 "For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only the third hour of the day;
Act 2:16 but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel: (NASB)




There is no proof for what you are saying to be found in this passage.

 

[awaken]

No, what he says is factual. The term "unknown" is in italics and the KJV translators inserted it. When tongues are used for some other purpose than what they are designed for they are unknown to the listeners because the listeners do not speak those known languages. That is precisely what occurred in Corinth. They were taking a MISSIONARY GIFT FOR THE JEWS and bringing it into the congregation to show off their own personal abilities.

You added the bold..it is not in scriptures anywhere that tongues is a missionary gift for the Jews! Gentiles spoke in tongues!

The fact is that you take the plural "tongues" in 1 Cor. 12:29 and try to claim it does not comprehend that gift but rather refers to only one aspect of that gift. You talk about ABRITRARY interpretation, that takes the cake!

No, what takes the cake is that you ignore that is is speaking in a church service we all have seperate gifts to offer the congregation as some are listed in Acts 14:26. NOt to mention you have to ignore vs. 2 of 14 where it says no one understands. Also vs. 13 where it says to pray for interpretation..if we understand what we are saying in tongues..then why do we ourselves have to pray for an interpretation?

Paul lists other gifts along with "tongues" in 1 Cor. 12:7-11 and 1 Cor. 12:29-30 and there is no DOUBLE provided as though there are two different types of tongues and yet you arbritrarily attempt to make that distinction due solely to your own subjective experience.

It does not matter because the context is when we gather as a body of believers. We do not all bring to the service the same gift! No where does it say we can not speak to God in tongues in private. NOWHERE!

The fact is that tongues are not for all believers. Mark 16 does not state it is for all believers. Mark 16 simply lists things that "shall" follow without stating or demanding that all these things will follows each and every believer.

Good point..but in every example of the baptism in the HOly Spirit.. They all spoke with tongue. Disprove that and we can discuss this futher!

 

[awaken]

'Awaken' claims: "there was no-one else around at this point for them to be talking to"

But the Bible says: "when this sound was heard, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speaking in his own language"

I answered that in Post #29..

 

[mont974x4]

Act 2:38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 2:39 "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."
Act 2:40 And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation!"
Act 2:41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.
Act 2:42 They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles' teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.
Act 2:43 Everyone kept feeling a sense of awe; and many wonders and signs were taking place through the apostles. (NASB, emphasis mine)



Look at that, no tongues--gibberish or otherwise.

 

[awaken]

Why bring it up again then? I didn't start another thread on it - you did!

DHK said I never stated my case on praying to God is tongues. That is what I am trying to do in this thread!

That text must be interpeted by the immediate context, which is something you are unwilling to do! Hence, you do not have ears to hear the truth.

The context is the manifestation of the Holy Spirit in a CHURCH..WHEN THEY COME TOGETHER... Either way you want to look at it it still says
"HE THAT SPEAKETH IN TONGUES SPEAKETH TO GOD"
VS. 16..."WHEN THOU BLESS WITH THE SPIRIT".."GIVETH THANKS".."THOU GIVETH THANKS WELL"
VS. 28..."KEEP SILENCE IN THE CHURCH; AND LET HIM SPEAK TO HIMSELF, AND TO GOD" ...THAT IS PRAYING!! Nowhere in scriptures does it say we can not talk to God in private. As a matter of fact vs. 28 tells us to keep it private..between God and self if there is not an interpretation IN THE CHURCH. It does not say that I can not speak to God in private outside the church...or we are all sinning!

In context, the corinthians are abusing the gift of tongues. Can you agree to that basic premise?

Yes! They are speaking in church without an interpretation.

Their abuses are many. They are violating the principle of love (v. 1). They are violating the principle of edification and creating absolute confusion by their improper use of tongues.

the confusion comes in when it is in the church without interpretation. That is the correction!

Part of this "confusion" is not merely all speaking at the same time but these languages are foreign to those in a church context of beleivers and thus unknown to them. Hence, GOD ALONE understands and the speakers have no other audiance that comprehends what they are saying in this context other than God. Paul is not commending this but condemning it while YOU are not only commending it but attempting to argue that this is the one and only proper audiance for tongues - God.

God is the one we are speaking too! vs. 2 .."for he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but UNTO GOD"

They are failing to understand the proper Biblical design for the gift of tongues and use it accordingly (1 Cor. 14:19-21). The proper use is according to its Biblical design which is a "sign" for "THIS PEOPLE" who are the Jews - those lost people who are very LEARNED in the Old Testament Scriptures.

What you are speaking is esctatic utterances which is the common variety found in all world religions.

NO where have I called tongues esctatic utterance. It is an utterance given by the Holy Spirit (Acts 2). No where does is say it is JUST FOR THE JEW. Corinthians were Gentiles.

 

[The Biblicist]

Where your crux of error is, Sir..is that you are taking 12-14 out of context. Paul is correcting church worship service. When they gather together. Not everyone is called to speak in tongues in a worship service.

Chapters 11-14 are all about the public worship service not just 1 Cor. 14:12-14. 1 Cor. 14:2 is about the worship service not private talking to God. 1 Cor. 14:15-17 is about the worship service not personal prayer tongues.

However, that does not change God's purpose of tongues (vv. 20-22) whether one is in the public service or outside the public service. There are not TWO different kinds of tongues. 1 Cor. 12:6-11 is speaking about spiritual sign gifts in general as so is 1 Cor. 12:29-30. You just can't make up things and jerk things out of context to suit your subjective experiences.

Then in your interpretation those that believe in the future will not be saved. Because in vs. 16 It says those that believeth and is baptized shall be saved..

The gospel is necessary for salvation but the gift of tongues are not! Those sign gifts are said to "follow" but are not inclusive of gospel salvation. They have a designated stated purpose (v. 20; Heb. 2:4) which you completely ignore. That purpose is stated clearly in 1 Cor. 14:20-22 and is used according to that purpose in Acts 2, 10,19, etc. That purpose is LIMITED as both texts speak of it as fulfilled in the past tense and Hebrews 2:3-4 EXCLUDES the writer and readers. 1 Cor. 13:8 demands tongues ceases of itself PRIOR to what shall cause prophecy and knowledge to cease.

Your esctatic utterance has been around for ages and anyone can do it in the right circumstances.

One reason that this argument is erroneous is because few of the apostles wrote any of the books of the New Testament, and many of the books were written by people who were not apostles.

That is false! The vast majority of the New Testament was written by apostles (22 out of 27). The remaining books were primarily written by those under the supervision of an apostle and the very few left were written by New Testament prophets (Eph. 2:20).

Another obvious flaw in this argument is that signs and miracles and spiritual gifts were not limited to the apostles:

Find anyone in Acts 2-6 who did miracles signs and wonders except for apostles?

Find anyone in Acts 6-28 who did miracles that did not first receive laying on of hands by apostles as in Acts 8:14-17. You cannot prove that Ananias in Acts was not one of those sent out in Acts 8 and thus did not have apostolic hands laid upon him.

Find any mention of sign gifts listed in Romans 12 and then look at Romans 1:11 why Paul wanted to come to them. Look at 2 Cor. 12:12 as such MSW were the peculair "sign" of the apostles but your interpretation makes that meaningless, because if all were given signs gifts then it could not be the "sign" of the apostolic office.

"Now Stephen, a man full of God's grace and power, did great wonders and miraculous signs among the people." (Acts 6:8)

Not before the apostles laid hands upon him (Acts 6:4-7).

"When the crowds heard Philip and saw the miraculous signs he did, they all paid close attention to what he said. With shrieks, evil spirits came out of many, and many paralytics and cripples were healed." (Acts 8:6-7)

Not before the apostles laid hands on him (Acts 6:4-7).

"During this time some prophets came down from Jerusalem to Antioch. One of them, named Agabus, stood up and through the Spirit predicted that a severe famine would spread over the entire Roman world. (This happened during the reign of Claudius.)" (Acts 11:27-28)

This is the same office as in the Old Testament is not assigned among the "sign" gifts but is placed with the Apostles (Eph. 2:20). Hence, the office of prophet is PRE-Pentecostal and has nothing to do with Pentecost.

"Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: ... "'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy."" (Acts 2:14-18)

This text does not explain HOW that would be done only that it would be done. Obviously "ALL" does not refer to all humans as this is not true of lost people. Moreover, this cannot mean that "sign" gifts were given directly to "all" people as that would make 2 Cor. 12:12 and the many instances of sign gifts coming by laying on apostolic hands false and misleading (Acts 19:6; 8:14-17; Rom. 1:11; etc.).

 

[awaken]

What translation of the Bible are you using?


Act 2:1 When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place.
Act 2:2 And suddenly there came from heaven a noise like a violent rushing wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.
Act 2:3 And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them.
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.
Act 2:5 Now there were Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven.
Act 2:6 And when this sound occurred, the crowd came together, and were bewildered because each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language.
Act 2:7 They were amazed and astonished, saying, "Why, are not all these who are speaking Galileans?
Act 2:8 "And how is it that we each hear them in our own language to which we were born?
Act 2:9 "Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,
Act 2:10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the districts of Libya around Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes,
Act 2:11 Cretans and Arabs--we hear them in our own tongues speaking of the mighty deeds of God."
Act 2:12 And they all continued in amazement and great perplexity, saying to one another, "What does this mean?"
Act 2:13 But others were mocking and saying, "They are full of sweet wine."
Act 2:14 But Peter, taking his stand with the eleven, raised his voice and declared to them: "Men of Judea and all you who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you and give heed to my words.
Act 2:15 "For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only the third hour of the day;
Act 2:16 but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel: (NASB)




There is no proof for what you are saying to be found in this passage.

Proof that they were speaking to God? I proved a lot by that scripture. But Acts 10 backs up Acts 2 on what they were doing when they were speaking in tongues. They were praising God!

 

[awaken]

Act 2:38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 2:39 "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."
Act 2:40 And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation!"
Act 2:41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.
Act 2:42 They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles' teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.
Act 2:43 Everyone kept feeling a sense of awe; and many wonders and signs were taking place through the apostles. (NASB, emphasis mine)



Look at that, no tongues--gibberish or otherwise.

What did they see and hear? You left out what Peter said in vs. 33 "Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father THE PROMISE OF THE HOLY GHOST, HE HATH SHED THIS, WHICH YE NOW SEE AND HEAR."
I believe they saw and heard them speaking with other tongues, don't you?

 

[mont974x4]

What did they see and hear? You left out what Peter said in vs. 33 "Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father THE PROMISE OF THE HOLY GHOST, HE HATH SHED THIS, WHICH YE NOW SEE AND HEAR."
I believe they saw and heard them speaking with other tongues, don't you?

You asked for proof of people being baptized by the Holy Spirit that did not speak in tongues after. I showed you that and you try to explain it away.

Let's look at passages that deal with the gifts of the Spirit.

Rom 12:4 For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function,
Rom 12:5 so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.
Rom 12:6 Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith;
Rom 12:7 if service, in his serving; or he who teaches, in his teaching;
Rom 12:8 or he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness. (NASB)


1Co 12:4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1Co 12:5 And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord.
1Co 12:6 There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons.
1Co 12:7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
1Co 12:8 For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9 to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
1Co 12:10 and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues.
1Co 12:11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.
1Co 12:12 For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ.
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit. (NASB)



1Co 12:27 Now you are Christ's body, and individually members of it.
1Co 12:28 And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.
1Co 12:29 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they?
1Co 12:30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?
1Co 12:31 But earnestly desire the greater gifts. And I show you a still more excellent way. (NASB)




Your insistence that all who are saved speak in tongues is contrary to Scripture.

 

[The Biblicist]

"All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them. Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. Utterly amazed, they asked: "Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans? Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language? Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs-- we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!" Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, "What does this mean?"" (Acts 2:4-12)

Notice the sequence of events here: 120 believers all began rejoicing and praising God in tongues at the same time.

Nowhere does this text say they were "rejoicing and praising God in tongues" you have invented that out of your own mind. Stick with the scriptures instead of rewriting them.

This noise drew a crowd. The people in the crowd recognized their native languages being spoken.

How could that be if they were secluded in a room when this occurred? The text nowhere states this order of events ALL occurred inside that room. How do you know when they began to speak in tongues the Spirit had not already led them out of that room? You don't! It is pure imagination on your part.

This crowd did not gather until they heard the noise of 120 people all talking at the same time

This is the church and you are interpreting this in direct contradiction to what the Spirit condemned at the church in Corinth! If they were all in one room speaking all at once that is contrary to no more than two or three at the most in the congregation. That is pure confusion. However, if they had left the room and are speaking in the presence of lost Jews and these lost Jews noised this abroad to gather a crow of lost Jews then it is in perfect harmony with the Holy Spirit's direction for the proper use of tongues.

The people in the crowd said, "we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!" In other words, the disciples were praising God, telling Him of His wonders,

Again, you are using your imagination rather than what the text says. They were declaring the wonderful works of God but no where does it state they were talking to God or praising God. The purpose of the gift was a "sign" not to God but to unbelieving Jews and that is exactly how the Spirit was leading them in Acts 2.

Why were the disciples praising God in tongues? Because this is one of the primary purposes for tongues:

"If you are praising God with your spirit, how can one who finds himself among those who do not understand say "Amen" to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying?" (1 Corinthians 14:16)

Again you select a translation to fit your bias. Again, you assume that Paul is not talking about anything other than praise when prayer has many aspects - supplication, intercessory, adoration, etc.

Nowhere does the Bible say tongues are given to praise God. God does not want praise that the one doing the praising cannot understand what they are saying - that is VAIN praise and that is something Paul says he will not do and they should not do (1 Cor. 14:15-17). To insist that kind of praise is what God wants is to invalidate all the scriptures you just quoted from Psalms and indeed the whole book of Psalms which is spoken by David in his own tongue. God does not want praise that does not stem from the hearts of men but only something he alone understands as that does not glorify him at all but is pure mechanical and irrational.

Even non-charismatic commentaries agree that the disciples were praising God in tongues and not sharing the Gospel. For example, The Bible Knowledge Commentary (Walvoord and Zuck, Dallas Theological Seminary, p.358) says this:
"The topic the people discussed in all these languages was the wonders of God. It seems they were praising God. Their message was not one of repentance; it was not the gospel." (emphasis added)

How does ANYONE know what the wonderful works of God were about as the text does not state the content? What right have you or these commentators to say what it was or was not? You don't!

 

[The Biblicist]

The context is the manifestation of the Holy Spirit in a CHURCH..WHEN THEY COME TOGETHER... Either way you want to look at it it still says
"HE THAT SPEAKETH IN TONGUES SPEAKETH TO GOD"
VS. 16..."WHEN THOU BLESS WITH THE SPIRIT".."GIVETH THANKS".."THOU GIVETH THANKS WELL"
VS. 28..."KEEP SILENCE IN THE CHURCH; AND LET HIM SPEAK TO HIMSELF, AND TO GOD" ...THAT IS PRAYING!! Nowhere in scriptures does it say we can not talk to God in private. As a matter of fact vs. 28 tells us to keep it private..between God and self if there is not an interpretation IN THE CHURCH. It does not say that I can not speak to God in private outside the church...or we are all sinning!

1 Cor. 12:7-11 and 29-31 deal with spiritual gifts in general regardless of the contextual setting. God sovereignly bestows gifts according to his own will not your will regardless if you are at home, church, work, etc.

God does not give all Christians the gift of apostle or tongues regardless of the contextual setting at home, church, work, etc.

However, your whole interpretation contradicts these basic principles in regard to spiritual gifts, how they are obtained and how they are distributed by the Holy Spirit. Your theory falls flat right here at this point and completely contradictions the scriptures in regard to Holy Spirit distribution as well as application of the sign gifts.

Yes! They are speaking in church without an interpretation.

Half-truth! They were all speaking at once - that was wrong. They were speaking without an interpreter - that was wrong. They were using them in the church in the manner described and that was wrong. They were not recognizing and using them according to thier Bibical purpose - that was wrong!

God is the one we are speaking too! vs. 2 .."for he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but UNTO GOD"

You jerk this text out of its context. Jerked out like this it can be used to make your point. However, when it is placed back in its context its meaning is obvious. NNE UNDERSTANDS IT in the context it was being used but God and thus they are not speaking to men but to God. Moreover, the fact that Paul goes on to clearly and explicitly state they were given as a "sign" to a special kind of men clearly shows they were intended for men (vv. 20-22) and in Acts 2 we see this design being accomplished in 3000 souls saved among UNBELIEVING JEWS.

NO where have I called tongues esctatic utterance.

I never said you did. I was calling your kind of gibberish "esctatic utterances" the common variety found in many other world religions that you mistakenly call Biblical tongues.

It is an utterance given by the Holy Spirit (Acts 2). No where does is say it is JUST FOR THE JEW. Corinthians were Gentiles.

False! 1 Cor. 14:20-23 is the only place in Scripture that a MATURE understanding for the Biblical purpose of tongues is spelled out. Those unto whom it is a "sign" are also predicted to have this response "Yet for all that they will not believe" which rules out believers.