praying = speaking to God

[The Biblicist]

When we speak to God is it considered prayer? Yes or No?

When we address God it regarded as Pray only because we are CONSCIOUSLY addressing God. Paul condemns praying in tongues or attempting to address God without comprehension of what you are saying as it is no prayer at all on your part but pure gibberish.

 

[The Biblicist]

THe rest is speaking to them in stammering lips. THis is the rest refers back to what he said in vs.11.

You have got to be kidding??? Look at the verse! It says "For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

Stammering lips AND another tongue are what God uses to speak TO THIS PEOPLE! Not just stammering lips but also with "another tongue" GOD SPEAKS TO THIS PEOPLE. It is not the tongue speakers speaking TO GOD but God using these tongue speakers to SPEAK TO THIS PEOPLE. Hence, tongues are used by God for God to speak to people - this people - the Jews and that is why it is not a sign for believers or for personal use by believers unless it is accompanied with conscious understanding.

 

[awaken]

When we address God it regarded as Pray only because we are CONSCIOUSLY addressing God. Paul condemns praying in tongues or attempting to address God without comprehension of what you are saying as it is no prayer at all on your part but pure gibberish.

THen you disagree with Paul...he says speaking in tongues is speaking to God!
He also says that you give thanks well in tongues..that is speaking to God.
He also says to speak between you and God in silence if you do not have an interpretation. ..that is prayer, when you speak to God.
He also says forbid not to speak in tongues.
Speaking in tongues is speaking to God in every instance. He never forbid tongues in church! Just to do it in order and with interpretation. He also says for us to pray for the interpretation.

 

[The Biblicist]

THe rest is speaking to them in stammering lips. THis is the rest refers back to what he said in vs.11.

You cannot separate "stammering lips" from "another tongue" as the text says BOTH are used by God for God TO SPEAK TO THIS PEOPLE. Both are used to speak about the rest in verse 12.

Paul interprets this to mean it is a "sign" to the Jewish people concerning the promised "rest" or proof that the Messiah has come.

12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.


Jesus said "Come unto me all ye that are burdened and heaven laden and I WILL GIVE YOU REST"

Verse 16 spells this out to be the Messiah in unmistakenable words:

16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

Verse 12 says they will not believe although verse 16 calls on them to believe.

Didn't the Jews understand the tongues in Acts 2?

They took it as a "sign" because THREE TIMES they repeated these were common Jews with no education and yet they are speaking in known dialects all over the world.

the only sign to the unbelieving Jews was the uninterpreted tongues.

False! Those on Pentecost UNDERSTOOD what was said and the "sign" was the fact that they knew those speaking could not have done it naturally.

That is why Paul said tongues in church must be interpreted so the unbelievers would not think it was a sign of judgement.

False! in that text he speaking of "unlearned" unbelievers or Gentiles who had no knowlege of the scriptures as did the Jews and would not think anything but those speaking were just as crazy as those who spoke in esctatic utterances in all their pagan temples.

 

[The Biblicist]

THen you disagree with Paul.

No I deagree with your false intepretation of Paul's words as you just jerk his words out of context and make them fit to support your esctatic utterances.

 

[DHK]

THen you disagree with Paul...he says speaking in tongues is speaking to God!

He was speaking to the church. The person in the church was praying aloud (in the spirit also). And it had to be interpreted. All had to know when to say Amen.

He also says that you give thanks well in tongues..that is speaking to God.

Of course, even speaking in an audible voice in prayer is still speaking to God. Don't people in your church lead in prayer in your services??

He also says to speak between you and God in silence if you do not have an interpretation. ..that is prayer, when you speak to God.

We all do that. It is silent prayer. It doesn't require tongues.

He also says forbid not to speak in tongues.

Context! In the first century only!

Speaking in tongues is speaking to God in every instance. He never forbid tongues in church! Just to do it in order and with interpretation. He also says for us to pray for the interpretation.

Only when there is no interpreter do you pray for an interpreter. That would be in extreme cases, unless you were an apostle like Paul, who had all the gifts. Speaking in tongues is not speaking to God in all cases. It is a revelatory gift for the edification of the people. It was prophecy given in another language. 1Cor.14 indicates that very clearly. That is why there is such a contrast, and that is why he said, "I would rather that you prophesy." Prophesying had understanding, but doing the same thing, giving the same message in tongues didn't have any understanding. Therefore don't do it.

 

[awaken]

You have got to be kidding??? Look at the verse! It says "For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

Stammering lips AND another tongue are what God uses to speak TO THIS PEOPLE! Not just stammering lips but also with "another tongue" GOD SPEAKS TO THIS PEOPLE. It is not the tongue speakers speaking TO GOD but God using these tongue speakers to SPEAK TO THIS PEOPLE. Hence, tongues are used by God for God to speak to people - this people - the Jews and that is why it is not a sign for believers or for personal use by believers unless it is accompanied with conscious understanding.

Are for a sign. An indication, an evidence, or a proof that God has imparted this power, and that he attends the preaching of the gospel with his approbation. It is a sign, or a miracle, which, like all other miracles, may be designed to convince the unbelieving world that the religion is from God.

Not to them that believe. Not to Christians. They are already convinced of the truth of religion, and they would not be benefited by that which was spoken in a language which they could not understand.

 

[awaken]

No I deagree with your false intepretation of Paul's words as you just jerk his words out of context and make them fit to support your esctatic utterances.

I have never said it is esctatic utterances. It is plain what Paul wrote!

 

[DHK]

Your examples show your desperate to prove your theory!

My post, way back on page two, says that you can't answer it.
A no is a no. You don't understand that.

 

[The Biblicist]

Are for a sign. An indication, an evidence, or a proof that God has imparted this power, and that he attends the preaching of the gospel with his approbation. It is a sign, or a miracle, which, like all other miracles, may be designed to convince the unbelieving world that the religion is from God.

Not to them that believe. Not to Christians. They are already convinced of the truth of religion, and they would not be benefited by that which was spoken in a language which they could not understand.

"THIS PEOPLE" and their rulers who are "IN JERUSALEM" is not the world! This is a sign to the Jews of their own promised coming Messiah signifying He has come! Nothing is plainer! Your twist, pervert, and fabricrate the scriptures to say exactly opposite or contrary to what they say. This is not a sign to the UNBELEIVIN WORLD but to JEWISH NATION and the context is clear.

 

[The Biblicist]

I have never said it is esctatic utterances. It is plain what Paul wrote!

I said "YOUR" esctatic utterances. In other words I don't believe you have the Biblical gift of tongues that Paul spoke about. I believe "YOUR" utterances are the plain ordinary common varieity that is found in most religions long before Paul wrote this letter which are nothing more than ecstatic utterances.

 

[awaken]

He was speaking to the church. The person in the church was praying aloud (in the spirit also). And it had to be interpreted. All had to know when to say Amen.

So you admit that tongues is (in the spirit also)?

Of course, even speaking in an audible voice in prayer is still speaking to God. Don't people in your church lead in prayer in your services??

tongues is praying to God..speaking to God!

We all do that. It is silent prayer. It doesn't require tongues.

But in this scriptures he was refering to tongues without interpretations. So again..tongues is speaking to God..is prayer!

Context! In the first century only!

You said it was for first century! The Bible does not say that!

Only when there is no interpreter do you pray for an interpreter. That would be in extreme cases, unless you were an apostle like Paul, who had all the gifts. Speaking in tongues is not speaking to God in all cases. It is a revelatory gift for the edification of the people. It was prophecy given in another language. 1Cor.14 indicates that very clearly. That is why there is such a contrast, and that is why he said, "I would rather that you prophesy." Prophesying had understanding, but doing the same thing, giving the same message in tongues didn't have any understanding. Therefore don't do it.

You say "don't do it!" Paul said "forbid not" The only correction in the church is if you do not have the interpretation and only one at a time and not more than 3.
Vs. 28 is plain that you are to speak to God (prayer) in silence if there is not an interpretation. If you can speak silently between you and God in tongues that is prayer! Prayer is not limited to the church. We can pray in private anywhere! In tongues and in English (or our understanding).

 

[awaken]

I said "YOUR" esctatic utterances. In other words I don't believe you have the Biblical gift of tongues that Paul spoke about. I believe "YOUR" utterances are the plain ordinary common varieity that is found in most religions long before Paul wrote this letter which are nothing more than ecstatic utterances.

Well, God has confirmed many times otherwise! :thumbs:

 

[The Biblicist]

Well, God has confirmed many times otherwise! :thumbs:

To who? yourself and like minded?

 

[DHK]

Awaken,
Is this what you speak:

Here isThe Adamic ~ English Dictionary...

ADAMIC
pay
lay
ale​

ENGLISH
... from my [any organ: heart, mind, mouth, depending on context]
... this (these) word(s)

... oh, Lord hear


You now know 100% of Adamic, the language spoken in heaven. You are a fluent Adamic speaker! Sooner or later, you will have to learn this anyway. (If you are so unlucky as to wind up in Hell, knowledge of Adamic will serve you, as it is also the lingua franca for that domain, also.)[/FONT] We have only one minor complication. Don't worry, it's not to bad and it's easily mastered. In Adamic, the middle letter of any word is capitalized, except for foreign, imported words (more on that in a minute).
So, words in the the Adamic Dictionary are really written like this:

pAy
lAy
aLe
​

Punctuation: There is none, except in some imported foreign words. In those, a hyphen (-) may appear, but it is not always present. One thing is for sure, if it has a hyphen, it is a word borrowed from a Terrestrial (or Telestial) language.
Alphabet:
P, A, L, E, Y In Adamic, this is the order of the letters of the alphabet.

 

[awaken]

To who? yourself and like minded?

Stick to the scriptures and not my walk with God! I find on this forum that when most cannot defend there theories they start attacking the persons walk with God.
YOu can not deny what the Word says..over and over it says tongues is talking to God! That is prayer!
"If you are praising God with your spirit, how can one who finds himself among those who do not understand say "Amen" to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying? You may be giving thanks well enough, but the other man is not edified." (1 Corinthians 14:16-17)

Paul was speaking of praising God and giving thanks to God, so this is a reference to the prayer in tongues.

Notice that the word "tongues" is not used in this passage, yet it's clear from the context that "praising God with your spirit" means the same thing as "praising God in tongues" (in the Holy Spirit). So once again we can see that "praising God with your spirit" and "praising God in the Spirit" and "praising God in tongues" all mean the same thing.

 

[The Biblicist]

tongues is praying to God..speaking to God!

Do you believe that you can sing in tongues and "speak" in tongues in addition to "pray" in tongues? If so, then you cannot say with Biblical authority that "tongues is praying" but only that tongues can be in a form of addressing God, which Paul condemns without comprehension.

Moreover, "tongues" is by designed God speaking to "this people" as that is precisely what Isaiah 28:11 says and thus you cannot say with Biblical authority that "tongues is...speaking to God"


Isa. 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

1 Cor. 14:21 ¶ In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

The language is simple and straight forward and yet you contradict it by your restrictive application of tongues to God only. That is not what God says and that is not what God's Word says.

 

[awaken]

Awaken,
Is this what you speak:

Again..attacking the person:BangHead:...always happens when you can not stick to scriptures!

 

[The Biblicist]

Stick to the scriptures and not my walk with God! I find on this forum that when most cannot defend there theories they start attacking the persons walk with God.
YOu can not deny what the Word says..over and over it says tongues is talking to God! That is prayer!
"If you are praising God with your spirit, how can one who finds himself among those who do not understand say "Amen" to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying? You may be giving thanks well enough, but the other man is not edified." (1 Corinthians 14:16-17)

Paul was speaking of praising God and giving thanks to God, so this is a reference to the prayer in tongues.

Notice that the word "tongues" is not used in this passage, yet it's clear from the context that "praising God with your spirit" means the same thing as "praising God in tongues" (in the Holy Spirit). So once again we can see that "praising God with your spirit" and "praising God in the Spirit" and "praising God in tongues" all mean the same thing.

Oh please don't be such a hypocrit and play the martyr. YOU are the one that said it had been confirmed did you not! I simply questioned to whom it had been confirmed, only you and those like minded! That is hardly any attack on your personal walk with God!

I find that when people like you can't respond to the issues they start playing the martry and claim they are being personally attacked. Please put aside this hypocritical pretense and stick with the discussion. It is reasonable to question the basis of a professed confirmation and that is precisely what I did.

 

[The Biblicist]

"THIS PEOPLE" and their rulers who are "IN JERUSALEM" is not the world! This is a sign to the Jews of their own promised coming Messiah signifying He has come! Nothing is plainer! Your twist, pervert, and fabricrate the scriptures to say exactly opposite or contrary to what they say. This is not a sign to the UNBELEIVIN WORLD but to JEWISH NATION and the context is clear.

You want to start answering issues? How about the above one? How about the fact that you never responded to the use of "allos" versus "heteros" in my response to your total abuse of it in 1 Cor. 12:7-11. How about your failure to respond to my post on 1 Cor. 12:29-30 and your imaginary interperetation that Paul was distinguishing between manifestations to the SAME PERSONS at various times. NOne of these you have answered!