Calvin on Regeneration

[steaver]

Greetings board, fellow brothers and sisters in Christ,

I need some clarafication on this;

I have a brother in Christ in my church that is a believer in Calvin's theory of Unconditional Election. He claims that Calvinist do not believe there was a regeneration before the glorification of Jesus Christ, but that all even those before the coming of Christ were saved through the drawing of the Spirit, but not through regeneration.

So what is it officially?? Or is there a squable between Calvinist over this issue?

Thank you!

 

[The Biblicist]

Greetings board, fellow brothers and sisters in Christ,

I need some clarafication on this;

I have a brother in Christ in my church that is a believer in Calvin's theory of Unconditional Election. He claims that Calvinist do not believe there was a regeneration before the glorification of Jesus Christ, but that all even those before the coming of Christ were saved through the drawing of the Spirit, but not through regeneration.

So what is it officially?? Or is there a squable between Calvinist over this issue?

Thank you!

It does not matter what Calvin believes. There can be no spiritual life without divine quickening and divine quickening is spiritual union between the human spirit and the Spirit of God as Jesus tells Nicodemus BEFORE THE CROSS that what is born of "Spirit is spirit."

There is no possible salvation of ANY KIND found OUTSIDE OF CHRIST and that is exactly what Acts 4:12 says "under heaven" and "among men" just as John 14:6 says "no man cometh to the Father but by me."

There is no possible justification before God of ANY KIND found OUTSIDE OF CHRIST and Old Testament saints were justified - Rom. 4

There is no possible remission of sins of ANY KIND found OUTSIDE OF CHRIST and Old Testament saints sins were remitted by faith - Acts 10:43

There is no possible reconciliation with God of ANY KIND found OUTSIDE OF CHRIST.

Those chosen "in him" were chose berore the world began not AFTER the cross.

 

[moral necessity]

He claims that Calvinist do not believe there was a regeneration before the glorification of Jesus Christ, but that all even those before the coming of Christ were saved through the drawing of the Spirit, but not through regeneration.

Respectfully, your friend seems to be mistaken. Calvin never said any such thing that I am aware of. Rather, he seems to say that basically everything is the same between New Testament believers and Old Testament believers...everything except the degree to which the Spirit was applied throughout the earth.

"Jeremiah … shews … how much more abundant and richer the favour of God would be towards his people [i.e., in the New Testament] than formerly [i.e., in the Old Testament]. He then does not simply promise the restoration of that dignity and greatness which they had lost, but something better and more excellent" (Comm. on Jer. 31:31-32).

"As then the Father has put forth more fully the power of his Spirit under the kingdom of Christ, and has poured forth more abundantly his mercy on mankind, this exuberance renders insignificant the small portion of grace which he had been pleased to bestow on the fathers. We also see that the promises were then obscure and intricate, so that they shone only like the moon and stars in comparison with the clear light of the Gospel which shines brightly on us" (Comm. on Heb. 8:10).

I'm sure there are other passages of his that make the point more clear, but this is all I have access to for the moment.

Blessings...

 

[Yeshua1]

Respectfully, your friend seems to be mistaken. Calvin never said any such thing that I am aware of. Rather, he seems to say that basically everything is the same between New Testament believers and Old Testament believers...everything except the degree to which the Spirit was applied throughout the earth.

"Jeremiah … shews … how much more abundant and richer the favour of God would be towards his people [i.e., in the New Testament] than formerly [i.e., in the Old Testament]. He then does not simply promise the restoration of that dignity and greatness which they had lost, but something better and more excellent" (Comm. on Jer. 31:31-32).

"As then the Father has put forth more fully the power of his Spirit under the kingdom of Christ, and has poured forth more abundantly his mercy on mankind, this exuberance renders insignificant the small portion of grace which he had been pleased to bestow on the fathers. We also see that the promises were then obscure and intricate, so that they shone only like the moon and stars in comparison with the clear light of the Gospel which shines brightly on us" (Comm. on Heb. 8:10).

I'm sure there are other passages of his that make the point more clear, but this is all I have access to for the moment.

Blessings...

is Calvin saying though that OT/NT have SAME Holy spirit in same fashion, or that the OT had but a shadow of the fulness that we have now since death/raising of christ?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I am not sure why Steaver would even bring this up. Steaver, could you please explain it in more detail so that I might get a grasp? Thanks

 

[steaver]

I am not sure why Steaver would even bring this up. Steaver, could you please explain it in more detail so that I might get a grasp? Thanks

Ok, I shouldn't have mentioned Calvin, that seems to get the Calvinist worked up. Let me try again;

I have a fellow brother in Christ at my church who embraces the doctrines of TULIP. We are having a discussion over regeneration (the new heart given by the Holy Spirit) . I was showing him from the scriptures how the new birth was not implemented until after the glorification of Jesus Christ and he said that he agrees, he has no argument there. But here on BB the TULIP believers declare that the new birth has been going on even before the glorification of Jesus Christ.

So I am asking is there a disagreement on this between TULIP believers? And, is there anything within the definitions of TULIP that declares this one way or the other?

My friend says he is a TULIP believer, yet he believes as I do that regeneration was post ressurrection.

 

[steaver]

It does not matter what Calvin believes. There can be no spiritual life without divine quickening and divine quickening is spiritual union between the human spirit and the Spirit of God as Jesus tells Nicodemus BEFORE THE CROSS that what is born of "Spirit is spirit."

.

Well, that's what I thought TULIP believers believe, but my friend who says he believes in TULIP says regeneration is new to the NT. What I want to know then is there disagreement between TULIP believers on this? And is there anything in the TULIP definitions that I could show him that maybe he is not a TULIP believer as he thinks he is?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Maybe you are referring to the process of selection....according to Romans 3, no one unaided by God:

1. Has any righteousness by which to lay claim upon God
2. has any true understanding of God
3. seeks God

but what we do not have, and cannot have done, God has done for those who are being saved.

First Doctrines of Grace believers believe God sought us & then gave us understanding. He did it by making us alive in Jesus Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit, as a result of which our eyes are open to see things spiritually.

At that point God also gives us a righteousness that we did not have prior---this is the righteousness of Jesus Christ grounding our salvation.

Now as to Glorification, we believe it to be our ultimate spiritual destiny. And Paul's referral to glorification in Romans 8:30 refers to it in the past tense... IE, "Glorified", rather than in the future "will glorify". I think this is done by the apostle because he is thinking of this final step in our salvation as being so certain that its possible to refer to it in that way.

 

[steaver]

Maybe you are referring to the process of selection....according to Romans 3, no one unaided by God:

.

Ah, with all due respect, no, lol.

I am refering specifically to regeneration. As far as I knew, TULIP supporters say regeneration must happen for one to believe. But my friend is saying it does not even though he says he believes in TULIP.

So my question is, does TULIP specifically state that regeneration must occur prior to faith, or is this a dispute among TULIP believers?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Ah, with all due respect, no, lol.

I am referring specifically to regeneration. As far as I knew, TULIP supporters say regeneration must happen for one to believe. But my friend is saying it does not even though he says he believes in TULIP.

So my question is, does TULIP specifically state that regeneration must occur prior to faith, or is this a dispute among TULIP believers?

Well the bottom line is that the decisive acts in the sequence are God's, and even the matters for which we are responsible--repentance & faith, sanctification--are possible only because of God's prior working. It is the acts of God that matter. Without them, not one of us will be saved.

Now if you are asking if we have to believe? Of course, we do. But even faith is of God or, as it is better to say, it is the result of His working in us.

So what does the Doctrines of Grace people follow.....
Ephesians 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast

 

[Yeshua1]

Well, that's what I thought TULIP believers believe, but my friend who says he believes in TULIP says regeneration is new to the NT. What I want to know then is there disagreement between TULIP believers on this? And is there anything in the TULIP definitions that I could show him that maybe he is not a TULIP believer as he thinks he is?

How can the OT believer in God though have exactly same holy spirit in same fashion as under the new Covenant, as he was not given yet to us until death/raising of christ and his ascension?

 

[steaver]

Well the bottom line is that the decisive acts in the sequence are God's, and even the matters for which we are responsible--repentance & faith, sanctification--are possible only because of God's prior working. It is the acts of God that matter. Without them, not one of us will be saved.

Now if you are asking if we have to believe? Of course, we do. But even faith is of God or, as it is better to say, it is the result of His working in us.

So what does the Doctrines of Grace people follow.....
Ephesians 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast

I understand all of this. Did you read my questions? :love2:

Is there a dispute among TULIP believers on REGENERATION post cross verses pre-cross? Or is my friend mistaken? And no, my friend is not thinking of something different. We were talking specifically about the act of God in the regeneration of a person and whether it ever happened in people before Jesus Christ was glorified.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I understand all of this. Did you read my questions? :love2:

Is there a dispute among TULIP believers on REGENERATION post cross verses pre-cross? Or is my friend mistaken? And no, my friend is not thinking of something different. We were talking specifically about the act of God in the regeneration of a person and whether it ever happened in people before Jesus Christ was glorified.

No there is no dispute but I hope your not attempting to school him on Doctrines of Grace! If he is serious, he already has studied it & is not a piker dabbling in it & saying it. Have you asked him where he obtained his knowledge of DoG Theology & how long he has studied it? In any event, like the Biblicist says.....you have to be born again (regenerated) in order to be saved. However by dieing on the Cross, Christ has saved his elect......then they must be saved by regeneration (ITS A PROCESS)

 

[steaver]

No there is no dispute but I hope your not attempting to school him on Doctrines of Grace! If he is serious, he already has studied it & is not a piker dabbling in it & saying it. Have you asked him where he obtained his knowledge of DoG Theology & how long he has studied it? In any event, like the Biblicist says.....you have to be born again (regenerated) in order to be saved. However by dieing on the Cross, Christ has saved his elect......then they must be saved by regeneration (ITS A PROCESS)

Ok, it seems you are saying what my friend is saying, that regeneration came only after the cross. I thought TULIP believers on the board here have said that OT saints were regenerated even before Christ died on the cross?? I know one did, can't remember which one, but i remember him saying that Abraham was a regenerated believer when he lived here on earth.

 

[steaver]

No there is no dispute but I hope your not attempting to school him on Doctrines of Grace! If he is serious, he already has studied it & is not a piker dabbling in it & saying it. Have you asked him where he obtained his knowledge of DoG Theology & how long he has studied it? In any event, like the Biblicist says.....you have to be born again (regenerated) in order to be saved. However by dieing on the Cross, Christ has saved his elect......then they must be saved by regeneration (ITS A PROCESS)

What's a piker? :laugh:

 

[OldRegular]

The Bible on Regeneration

Folks it doesn't get any better than this:

John 3:3-8
3. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Ephesians 2:1-8, NASB
1. And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2. in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
4. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5. even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6. and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus,
7. in order that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

 

[steaver]

Folks it doesn't get any better than this:

John 3:3-8
3. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Ephesians 2:1-8, NASB
1. And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2. in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
4. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5. even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6. and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus,
7. in order that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Amen brother! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[steaver]

Here, I found the quote from The Biblicist on regeneration pre-cross....

Again, you are wrong! Do you really believe the human nature and human problem and its solution changed at the cross?? There is no fellowship between God and man apart from SPIRITUAL UNION between God and man and spiritual union is regeneration or being made alive to God spiritually. In the Old Testament this is mentioned as a circumcision of the heart. Jesus told Nicodemus he must be born of the Spirit BEFORE the cross and BEFORE the cross he asked how that a Bible teacher could be so ignorant of the necessity of the new birth

So it seems to me that there is a disagreement here among TULIP believers on regeneration, whether it happened to the OT saints before the cross or only after the cross.

This is why I asked, my friend who says he is a TULIP believer is telling me that he agrees with me that regeneration only began after the cross.

 

[Yeshua1]

Here, I found the quote from The Biblicist on regeneration pre-cross....



So it seems to me that there is a disagreement here among TULIP believers on regeneration, whether it happened to the OT saints before the cross or only after the cross.

This is why I asked, my friend who says he is a TULIP believer is telling me that he agrees with me that regeneration only began after the cross.

I too hold that oT believers were saved byt he coming Cross of christ, but that the Holy spirit was NOT working the same under the Old Covenant as he des to us now in nNew, since jesus had not yet died, he was not 'released" to come to indwell and seal all believersas He does today!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I too hold that oT believers were saved byt he coming Cross of christ, but that the Holy spirit was NOT working the same under the Old Covenant as he des to us now in nNew, since jesus had not yet died, he was not 'released" to come to indwell and seal all believersas He does today!

Yea but who cares about how OT believers were saved or not? Isnt our charge to offer Christ exclusively on the basis that He is able to save them who call on Him? The rest of this is just a conversation.

Im sure Biblicist, Old Regular etc having years of training & study, can give you the OT answer to your question. I dont even bother to concern myself with it. For today, we preach Christ Crucified & we preach Him to everyone. Therefore my concern, what I was charged with in the Great Commission, ..... to spread the free offering of the gospel by sharing it with all who will listen & to support the belief that Christ is able to save all who come to God through Him in faith.