Calvin on Regeneration

[steaver]

Yea but who cares about how OT believers were saved or not? Isnt our charge to offer Christ exclusively on the basis that He is able to save them who call on Him? The rest of this is just a conversation.

Im sure Biblicist, Old Regular etc having years of training & study, can give you the OT answer to your question. I dont even bother to concern myself with it. For today, we preach Christ Crucified & we preach Him to everyone. Therefore my concern, what I was charged with in the Great Commission, ..... to spread the free offering of the gospel by sharing it with all who will listen & to support the belief that Christ is able to save all who come to God through Him in faith.

Well, it matters quite a bit to me. One of the reasons I cannot embrace TULIP is for this very reason of the new birth. For I gathered from the conversation on this board that TULIP holds to the pov that God must give the person a rebirth, ie new heart, or they cannot and will not believe. If this is NOT the case, then it is understood that men like Abraham was saved according to their own exercise of faith and not because God gave them a new heart first.

My TULIP friend in my church then seems to not be alone here, for I see that you also at the least are not sure about the OT saints on the issue of rebirth.

This is why I asked in the OP, is there an "official" position found in the definitions of TULIP??

 

[steaver]

Here is a quote from my TULIP believing friend from a conversation we are having via email....

I don't understand why you're noting; "He sees the scripture as I do,
the new birth began after Jesus Christ was glorified and then the giving
of the Holy Spirit rebirth into the body of Christ had begun."

I think any Theology should agree that OT Saints did not have the
rebirth experience such as we see now with Jesus offered as a
propitiation for our sins.

This is a TULIP believer. Biblicist disagrees. Is there an official definition found in TULIP about this very important point??

 

[Yeshua1]

Here is a quote from my TULIP believing friend from a conversation we are having via email....



This is a TULIP believer. Biblicist disagrees. Is there an official definition found in TULIP about this very important point??

My view is that while the OT believers had their sins forbaded/forgiven by God, as he did NOT recken/hold against them due to the coming messiah, they did NOT have exactly same infilling/sealing with him as we do now, for he came and went, annoit usually just prophets, judges, and kings to do tasks when needed too by God!

 

[steaver]

My view is that while the OT believers had their sins forbaded/forgiven by God, as he did NOT recken/hold against them due to the coming messiah, they did NOT have exactly same infilling/sealing with him as we do now, for he came and went, annoit usually just prophets, judges, and kings to do tasks when needed too by God!

I would agree. Are you a TULIP believer?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Well, it matters quite a bit to me. One of the reasons I cannot embrace TULIP is for this very reason of the new birth. For I gathered from the conversation on this board that TULIP holds to the pov that God must give the person a rebirth, ie new heart, or they cannot and will not believe. If this is NOT the case, then it is understood that men like Abraham was saved according to their own exercise of faith and not because God gave them a new heart first.

My TULIP friend in my church then seems to not be alone here, for I see that you also at the least are not sure about the OT saints on the issue of rebirth.

This is why I asked in the OP, is there an "official" position found in the definitions of TULIP??

No Im sure there is, but Im saying that from my prospective personally I dont care. Im not a pastor or a teacher or a calvinist or an Arminian...... however Im a student & a very big sinner & had I not been confronted by the Holy Spirit 2 years ago, Id have continued in my wicked ways till my death & went to hell. Why should he or I be concerned a wit about the old timers. God will & does take care of them & he takes care of innocent children that die as well. There are some Calvinists like Presbyterians & Reformed like the Dutch Reformed who will tell you otherwise but they are downright nuts in their understanding of Gods love & His mercy. They forget that in the very 1st book , Genesis 18:25 "Will not the Judge of all earth do right?.

And I have never seen anything in "TULIP" (I assume you mean doctrines of grace) that addresses the subject matter. If not, then you have to go to your bible for your answers.....because TULIP is merely an acrostic attempting to explain Gods system of salvation. Now if we are basing it on who goes to heaven or hell then we believe its totally reliant on God's sovereign choice rather than mans works.... thus in all cases, before & after the cross, it is up to God to provide the grace that saves.

Are we together on this? Somehow I feel you have many more questions & lots of uncertainty as to direction you yourself need to take! The bottom line in this.... that to be saved, your inner nature needs to be changed. Is it being changed? How is the HS now working in your life?

 

[steaver]

No Im sure there is, but Im saying that from my prospective personally I dont care. Im not a pastor or a teacher or a calvinist or an Arminian...... however Im a student & a very big sinner & had I not been confronted by the Holy Spirit 2 years ago, Id have continued in my wicked ways till my death & went to hell. Why should he or I be concerned a wit about the old timers. God will & does take care of them & he takes care of innocent children that die as well. There are some Calvinists like Presbyterians & Reformed like the Dutch Reformed who will tell you otherwise but they are downright nuts in their understanding of Gods love & His mercy. They forget that in the very 1st book , Genesis 18:25 "Will not the Judge of all earth do right?.

And I have never seen anything in "TULIP" (I assume you mean doctrines of grace) that addresses the subject matter. If not, then you have to go to your bible for your answers.....because TULIP is merely an acrostic attempting to explain Gods system of salvation. Now if we are basing it on who goes to heaven or hell then we believe its totally reliant on God's sovereign choice rather than mans works.... thus in all cases, before & after the cross, it is up to God to provide the grace that saves.

Are we together on this? Somehow I feel you have many more questions & lots of uncertainty as to direction you yourself need to take! The bottom line in this.... that to be saved, your inner nature needs to be changed. Is it being changed? How is the HS now working in your life?

Well, you have brought up quite a few points that are the subjects of debates between Calvinist and nonCals. But I am going to stick to my OP questions here and not get side tracked.

I would like to hear from the Calvinist here on this question. Biblicist seems to be the most outspoken here on Calvinism, I was hoping he could shed some light on whether or not regeneration is found in the definitions of TULIP. Or is this up for debate among Calvinist. Remember, I bring this up because I am having a discussion over this issue with a Calvinist friend of mine who says the opposite of what Biblicist says on this subject. So I want to know if there is a disagreement among TULIP believers on this topic of regeneration OT verses NT.

Thanks for your imput :wavey:

 

[Winman]

Well, it matters quite a bit to me. One of the reasons I cannot embrace TULIP is for this very reason of the new birth. For I gathered from the conversation on this board that TULIP holds to the pov that God must give the person a rebirth, ie new heart, or they cannot and will not believe. If this is NOT the case, then it is understood that men like Abraham was saved according to their own exercise of faith and not because God gave them a new heart first.

My TULIP friend in my church then seems to not be alone here, for I see that you also at the least are not sure about the OT saints on the issue of rebirth.

This is why I asked in the OP, is there an "official" position found in the definitions of TULIP??

Who cares what Reformed/Calvinists believe, what do the scriptures say?

Jhn 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Scripture plainly shows many thousands of people believed on Jesus, but did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit yet. The Spirit was not given until after Jesus was crucified.

We are told the disciples believed on Jesus after his 1st miracle.

Jhn 2:11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

The disciples (except Judas) believed on Jesus here, but they did not receive the indwelling Holy Spirit until over 3 years later in John chapter 20.

Jhn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Calvinism/Reformed theology is simply false, many men in the OT and NT believed without the indwelling Holy Spirit. Total Depravity as taught by Reformed theology is complete error.

 

[steaver]

Are we together on this?

In part, but like I said, these things are much debated. Not to get off topic, but I believe without the Holy Spirit's convicting power nobody can come to faith in Christ. However, I do not believe a person must be born again before they can believe the gospel, I believe post cross one is born again when they believe in Christ. I do not believe the OT saints were ever born again, I believe they believed God's promisses and it was imputed unto them for righteousness. I don't believe God makes someone believe. I believe each person who hears the gospel has the opportunity to receive or reject.

 

[steaver]

Who cares what Reformed/Calvinists believe, what do the scriptures say?

Jhn 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Scripture plainly shows many thousands of people believed on Jesus, but did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit yet. The Spirit was not given until after Jesus was crucified.

We are told the disciples believed on Jesus after his 1st miracle.

Jhn 2:11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

The disciples (except Judas) believed on Jesus here, but they did not receive the indwelling Holy Spirit until over 3 years later in John chapter 20.

Jhn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Calvinism/Reformed theology is simply false, many men in the OT and NT believed without the indwelling Holy Spirit. Total Depravity as taught by Reformed theology is complete error.

Thanks Winman, as of now I totally agree with you. No one has been able to make a convincing argument to me otherwise.

While the OP is about regeneration, I specifically want to know if Calvinist, well, I guess they don't like that term, so TULIP believers disagree on whether or not the OT saints had the rebirth?

 

[Winman]

Thanks Winman, as of now I totally agree with you. No one has been able to make a convincing argument to me otherwise.

While the OP is about regeneration, I specifically want to know if Calvinist, well, I guess they don't like that term, so TULIP believers disagree on whether or not the OT saints had the rebirth?

You don't agree with me, you agree with the word of God. We are plainly told that no person was given the indwelling Holy Spirit until after Jesus rose from the dead.

Romans 8:9 tells us that the person without the indwelling Spirit is still in the flesh.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

A person without the indwelling Holy Spirit is still in the flesh. The disciples believed for over 3 years without the indwelling Spirit, so obviously a man in the flesh has the ability to believe.

Don't let these guys bamboozle you, they DO NOT have scripture on their side. They will now write a mini novel full of double talk to try to convince you men in the OT had the indwelling Spirit and were born again. Stick to what scripture plainly says.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

In part, but like I said, these things are much debated. Not to get off topic, but I believe without the Holy Spirit's convicting power nobody can come to faith in Christ. However, I do not believe a person must be born again before they can believe the gospel, I believe post cross one is born again when they believe in Christ. I do not believe the OT saints were ever born again, I believe they believed God's promisses and it was imputed unto them for righteousness. I don't believe God makes someone believe. I believe each person who hears the gospel has the opportunity to receive or reject.

OK well yesterday I spoke to my pastor. We both admitted we were functioning atheists prior to our being saved. Most of my friends who are non believers were that until they were brought to faith....In fact I was an enemy of God. I even have a fellow in my area who is a very big drug pusher in my community ...... he freely admits he was an enemy so I will have to respectfully disagree with your assessment. If you seriously look at your life, have you not been someone who sinned just to please yourself. Have you ever disregarded Christ & just figured he will later on forgive you so lets just sin. If you have done this than please dont tell me your just a run of the mill carnal Christian & a believer because you are not. You cannot love Christ & then just arbitrarily sin. No, that is the mark of the unbeliever....whether you know or not what Christ has done for you, you still have the responsibility to change & strive not to sin (though you are human & still prone to sin). Personally I do not believe in the carnal Christian myth. Either the Holy Spirit has convicted you of this or not, I dont know but without that conviction that your a lying, thieving, backstabbing, good for nothing SOB, you really are not facing the truth.....IE that your are guilty of the sin of non belief.

But you say, what are you talking about, I go to the church, go to bible study, give to the poor etc. So what! Do you truly love Christ & have you changed your life to the point that is necessary to really get people to see a difference? Have you walked lock step with Christ in every way? Has your heart changed to the point you give all to God? Have you grown a conscience & does all the stuff weigh heavy on you? Brother, only you can honestly answer those questions.....but mark my words, that will be the test of your own personal salvation....& thats the gift that brings us to eternal life.

 

[Winman]

OK well yesterday I spoke to my pastor. We both admitted we were functioning atheists prior to our being saved. Most of my friends who are non believers were that until they were brought to faith....In fact I was an enemy of God. I even have a fellow in my area who is a very big drug pusher in my community ...... he freely admits he was an enemy so I will have to respectfully disagree with your assessment. If you seriously look at your life, have you not been someone who sinned just to please yourself. Have you ever disregarded Christ & just figured he will later on forgive you so lets just sin. If you have done this than please dont tell me your just a run of the mill carnal Christian & a believer because you are not. You cannot love Christ & then just arbitrarily sin. No, that is the mark of the unbeliever....whether you know or not what Christ has done for you, you still have the responsibility to change & strive not to sin (though you are human & still prone to sin). Personally I do not believe in the carnal Christian myth. Either the Holy Spirit has convicted you of this or not, I dont know but without that conviction that your a lying, thieving, backstabbing, good for nothing SOB, you really are not facing the truth.....IE that your are guilty of the sin of non belief.

But you say, what are you talking about, I go to the church, go to bible study, give to the poor etc. So what! Do you truly love Christ & have you changed your life to the point that is necessary to really get people to see a difference? Have you walked lock step with Christ in every way? Has your heart changed to the point you give all to God? Have you grown a conscience & does all the stuff weigh heavy on you? Brother, only you can honestly answer those questions.....but mark my words, that will be the test of your own personal salvation....& thats the gift that brings us to eternal life.

You are placing experience over scripture, folks have all sorts of experiences, some folks think angels appear and speak to them. We cannot base our salvation or theology on personal experience.

The fact is, scripture itself says no believer received the indwelling Holy Spirit until after Jesus rose from the dead. The disciples themselves believed on Jesus for over 3 years before Jesus breathed on them and they received the Spirit.

We must base doctrine on scripture, not experience.

 

[steaver]

Have you walked lock step with Christ in every way? Has your heart changed to the point you give all to God? .

No, I haven't. I have fallen way short on these points. Have you been able to do these things since your conversion? Boy, I sure haven't.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Yes most definately & that somehow spiritually being molded in that direction...towards glorification. If you would have seen me a few years ago you would have seen a vividly transformation. Now I want others to want it. I live in a very dour area...devoid of Christs love. Most are atheists. My town has become a shell of what it once was. It is very sad. I was going to move but now I am feeling I need to stay and at least try to bring some to Christ.

 

[steaver]

Yes most definately & that somehow spiritually being molded in that direction...towards glorification. If you would have seen me a few years ago you would have seen a vividly transformation. Now I want others to want it. I live in a very dour area...devoid of Christs love. Most are atheists. My town has become a shell of what it once was. It is very sad. I was going to move but now I am feeling I need to stay and at least try to bring some to Christ.

I have not experienced that kind of perfection you speak of, maybe I don't have Christ afterall.

Just remember though, you "trying" to bring some to Christ is not what brings them. You trying to persuade them means nothing. All you can do is tell them that God has sent Jesus Christ for them, give them the gospel and either God will save them or not. Has nothing to do with you trying at all.....at least according to UE teachings.

 

[percho]

For he hath made him sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. 2 Cor 5:21 KJV without the bracketed words.

for him who did not know sin, in our behalf He did make sin, that we may become the righteousness of God in him. 2 Cor 5:21 YLT

This underlined person above who became SIN; Did he need to be regenerated?

Was he paid the wages of sin? Did he, dying thou shalt surely die?

Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, Acts 2:33

Did he really receive the promise of the Holy Spirit from the Father?

Just who, has been washed of regeneration and just who was renewed of the Holy Spirit? Was that same Holy Spirit then shed on others? Acts 2:33 end of sentence and Titus 3:6

Will Jesus be followed in the regeneration? Matt 19:28 Will this regeneration take place by that same Spirit? Will those who that Spirit was shed on be the ones who are quickened, regenerated Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. KJV

Are those who have the Spirit in a covenant relationship with Christ, by his blood? Are they, "in Christ?"

Are they joint heirs with him of this regeneration?

 

[Yeshua1]

I have not experienced that kind of perfection you speak of, maybe I don't have Christ afterall.

Just remember though, you "trying" to bring some to Christ is not what brings them. You trying to persuade them means nothing. All you can do is tell them that God has sent Jesus Christ for them, give them the gospel and either God will save them or not. Has nothing to do with you trying at all.....at least according to UE teachings.

We aree to model the Lord before them, to be as it were a "living Epistle", and to give them when asked what we hold yo, buts it the work of God to save them!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

We aree to model the Lord before them, to be as it were a "living Epistle", and to give them when asked what we hold yo, buts it the work of God to save them!

Yes, this is true Yeshua. But I think Steve is wondering if he is indeed elect. So here is a sub question to the OP that I hope doesn't hijack the thread (if so we will leave it alone) ....

How do you know whether or not you are elect?

 

[steaver]

Yes, this is true Yeshua. But I think Steve is wondering if he is indeed elect. So here is a sub question to the OP that I hope doesn't hijack the thread (if so we will leave it alone) ....

How do you know whether or not you are elect?

Well, I don't think I am wondering if I am one of the elect, but maybe you are wondering if I am.

It's a good question, but I prefer you start a new thread on it. I still am waiting for some answers to my OP here from the more than a few TULIP believers that post here on the BB. I don't know where they all got to, maybe they are busy. I need to know if there is a disagreement between TULIP believers on this issue of regeneration. My friend says no regeneration precross and Biblicist says there was. Is there an official position on this?? Where can I get an official definition of TULIP, maybe that will help.

 

[steaver]

But you say, what are you talking about, I go to the church, go to bible study, give to the poor etc. So what! Do you truly love Christ & have you changed your life to the point that is necessary to really get people to see a difference? Have you walked lock step with Christ in every way? Has your heart changed to the point you give all to God? Have you grown a conscience & does all the stuff weigh heavy on you? Brother, only you can honestly answer those questions.....but mark my words, that will be the test of your own personal salvation....& thats the gift that brings us to eternal life.

Tell me, what must I do to be saved?