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Total Spiritual Inability
- Thread starter Van
- Start date
Note this post has nothing to do with the topic, so yet another pathetic attempt to change the subject by implying Calvinists are untaught and unstable distortionists of truth.
Total Spiritual Inability has been shown to be a mistaken doctrine, which conflicts with scripture after scripture. The view is defended by adding to scripture what is not found in scripture, thus no one seeks God becomes no one seeks God while unregenerate at any time. Not what it says.
The next ploy is to change the subject to some other mistaken tenant of Calvinism, also not supported by any scripture.
No, that is what the Calvinists do, distort Paul. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says we were chosen through faith in the truth. Calvinists distort this to claim it means we were saved through faith in the truth. In 1 Corinthians 2:14 the Calvinists claim it reads "all the things of the Spirit of God." In Romans 3:11 Calvinists claim it reads no one seeks God at any time while unregenerate. On and on, the distortions are piled like up, leaving no possibility the errors are innocent.
How can a dead man resist anything?
Do the dead ears hear anything from God?
Do the dead eyes see anything from God?
Dead legs can't run, etc...
Just wondering.
I personally don't know how to answer my own questions.
I do now that those who do resist will be held responsible for their deeds.
HankD
Bronconagurski
New Member
No, that is not true. No one seeks God apart from the drawing of the Father and the Holy Spirit, and apart from Jesus being lifted up. Not the true God. A lot of people talking about heaven aren't going there. That is the point that you miss. Any heathen can make a false God, but we are talking about the true God. No one does seek Him unless drawn. That is bible fact, like it or not. Let me take it one step further: the Devil will cause many to seek false Gods and be damned in the process. That is not seeking God.
Bronconagurski
New Member
One final thought: All we have to do is look at the first human sinners. Adam and Eve hid from God, and He sought them. Don't make this too hard, people, apart from God coming after lost mankind, we have no hope. Any other answer takes glory away from God and gives it to man.
Christ was lifted up and all are drawn to Christ. scripture says;
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Now everyone can seek the one true God.
MB
Hank....the spiritually dead man has physical life but cannot properly understand the scripture savingly...2thess2 24 26...he cannot until indwelt by the Spirit. 1 cor2 rom 8.7
"All" in is this verse is a term of distinction, not inclusion (or exception). If "all" means all people everywhere, then the cross must be universal in respect to salvation. All people will be drawn to Christ, hence all people will be saved. Your interpretation "Now everyone can seek the one true God" is not what the text says. The text says Christ will draw all men to himself. It says nothing about seeking.
"All" means all people groups (term of distinction). All types of people, from all nations, will be drawn to Christ (Rev. 7:9).
So it seems what you believe is that all men are drawn but they can't come because, they cannot seek God. If this is true then none can be saved. We must come to Christ to be saved. By the way Just where does scripture say that we cannot seek God when drawn?
MB
I may not have made myself clear. God will draw his elect from all people groups, all nations.
[9]*After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, [10]*and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”
(Revelation 7:9-10 ESV)
You ask a fair question ("where does it say that we cannot seek God when drawn?"), but the text you cited in your previous post does not address that. Left in our sinful state the sinner will never seek after God. I know others disagree with Rom. 3:11; Rom. 8:7; and 1 Cor. 2:14 being cited as supporting total inability, but that's what these passages teach. Well before any act of seeking, any act of faith on the sinners part, God is the one who acts first:
[4]*But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, [5]*even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
(Ephesians 2:4-5 ESV)
Even when were dead in our trespasses, God made us alive together with Christ. The word for "dead" is nekros. It means a corpse. That is the sinner's spiritual condition. He is spiritually cold, stone dead. He is incapable of anything from a spiritual basis. Paul could have used another word to describe the spiritual state of the sinner, but he chose the word for a corpse on purpose. Perhaps the ability to see regeneration in this passage is ineffable to some, but logic reveals it plainly. Once God changes the heart, then man can seek. Then man can believe and do so freely.
You've got that wrong. There is nothing mentioned in the text about drawing the elect only. The adjetive to the word "All' is men, not "elect".
None of those scriptures support that men cannot but only in the instance of the original writer of this tidbit of scripture which was written by a fool says they do not. This is a long way from cannot. Infact no scripture I know of ever says man cannot seek God. It's not rocket science to know the difference between "do not" and "cannot"
Regeneration is not about just changing the heart. Regeneration is about being born in to the family of God, it is being remade entirely. It's justification and for all intents and purposes is being saved. It's not an opening of the mind but is Salvation it self. Even a dictionary explain it's meaning but the Calvinist make up there own. You are so careful to explain the Greek word for dead but neglect the meaning of regeneration.
The fact the Eph 2:8 specifically states that we are saved by grace through faith.(in other words no faith we get no grace) to be saved by just blows right on by the Calvinist because if he honestly looks at it he will see it's impossible to have grace bestowed with out faith being there for it to come through. If there is an inability the Calvinist certainly still has this inability though it isn't because of the fall but because of his own rebellion and fear of being seen as ignorant.
MB
The question is who does all refer to? Obviously it is men. But what type of men? Or put another way, what category of men? While "elect" is not used in the passage, that is the category being being referred to. Even according to your theological position you must determine what category of men are being described. If it truly is all men, as in each and every person, then my original points stands. You must understand the passage from a universalist position.
MB said:
Tidbit? I'm not sure what you mean by that.
There are a number of passages that teach total inability. They've been cited so many times that they mostly engender a yawn. Rom. 3:9-18; 8:7; 1 Cor. 2:14; and Eph. 2:1 either teach total inability or imply it. The fact that you, and others like you, reject it does not change our minds (by "our" I mean those who hold to total depravity and total inability).
MB said:
"is not just about" does not negate the other part of regeneration; namely the new birth. Regeneration does bring a person into the family of God, but first it must do its work of converting the soul.
[5]*he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
(Titus 3:5 ESV)
This washing is a picture of cleansing; cleansing from the defilement of sin. This cleansing, accomplished by the Holy Spirit, results in the new birth - literally a new creation.
[17]*Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
(2 Corinthians 5:17 ESV)
MB said:
Your understanding is flawed. There is no faith if there is no grace. The ability to believe, or exercise faith, is gifted by God. The sinner does not possess the ability to believe because he is dead (Eph. 2:1, 5; Col. 2:13).
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psalms109:31
Active Member
If Christ isn't lifted or we do not see Jesus lifted up you will not and cannot be drawn there is a audience on all just like the world whosoever believes and on who the Father will draw those who listen and learn. If you walk away without even given Jesus a chance to see Him lifted up you will not be drawn
psalms109:31
Active Member
I praise God through Jesus Christ that my life I need is in His word that I need and it is not out of my reach and in the paragraph I can find the answer and don't have to plea to mystery so I can plug in my elect.
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You see I underlined that above, it's what I call the perfect example of an assumed theology. That passage suggest all men but there you go trying to make scripture fit your theology by claiming it is only the elect. When you have absolutely nothing to show they are elect. We are not elect before Salvation and not only that you cannot prove that we are. We are only elect in Christ we are nonelect when we aren't in Christ.
The underlined above isn't true. In fact there are none that state man is unable to respond to the gospel and that includes all those you claim that does. I can read Hearld and not one of those passages prove an inability.
[/quote]
You have a very poor definition of the word "regeneration" Not one dictionary defines it as you do there fore your definition is false. There are not two parts to regeneration. It is simply the saving of a mans soul.
You said;
"There is no faith if there is no grace."
This statement is impossible according to scripture.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; God's word says you don't know what you are talking about and shows you are trying to manipulate scripture to make it say what you want instead of what God says.
MB
MB,
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself." (John 12:32 ESV)
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. (John 6:44 ESV)
I think is an error to say john 12 refers to a type of general drawing of all men who have ever lived.
We basically have two possible interpretations of john 12 here.
1. All men means all people who have ever lived... A general drawing
2. A limited drawing of all men in a certain group (in my view the sheep or elect).
I think using john 12 to explain john 6 is an error and leads people to being accused of universalism though that was not their intent. John 6:44 say all are drawn are lifted up revealing the same teaching we find in romans 8:30. All God calls are justified and glorified. In john 6 its in other words. All God draws are raised to glory showing us that either:
1. All people of all time are drawn and saved (universalism)
2) or a select people are drawn and glorified (elect/ the sheep)
Furthermore, i think theres a connection in john 6:35-40 and john 12
Christ came to die for those God had given Him from all people groups (gentiles: john 12:20?). Yet from all people groups (jews and gentiles) there is a group called sheep (some not of jewish fold john 10) who christ came purposefully to save.
Look:
"Now is my soul troubled. And what shall I say? "Father, save me from this hour"? But for this purpose I have come to this hour. (John 12:27 ESV)
Which is to pay for sin of his people and raise them up on the last day.
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. (John 6:37-39 ESV)
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself." (John 12:32 ESV)
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. (John 6:44 ESV)
I think is an error to say john 12 refers to a type of general drawing of all men who have ever lived.
We basically have two possible interpretations of john 12 here.
1. All men means all people who have ever lived... A general drawing
2. A limited drawing of all men in a certain group (in my view the sheep or elect).
I think using john 12 to explain john 6 is an error and leads people to being accused of universalism though that was not their intent. John 6:44 say all are drawn are lifted up revealing the same teaching we find in romans 8:30. All God calls are justified and glorified. In john 6 its in other words. All God draws are raised to glory showing us that either:
1. All people of all time are drawn and saved (universalism)
2) or a select people are drawn and glorified (elect/ the sheep)
Furthermore, i think theres a connection in john 6:35-40 and john 12
Christ came to die for those God had given Him from all people groups (gentiles: john 12:20?). Yet from all people groups (jews and gentiles) there is a group called sheep (some not of jewish fold john 10) who christ came purposefully to save.
Look:
"Now is my soul troubled. And what shall I say? "Father, save me from this hour"? But for this purpose I have come to this hour. (John 12:27 ESV)
Which is to pay for sin of his people and raise them up on the last day.
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. (John 6:37-39 ESV)
Maybe this is the difference between you and me. You see I'm dispensational and I'm fundamental. I do not reinterpret scripture I take it at it's face value. I don't try to figure out what the writer is trying to say I just accept what he says with out embellishments of my own or anyone else's.
I believe that God's word is intelligent in what it says all by it's self. It doesn't need my input at all. My input would only distort the true meaning God originally intended for us.
You cannot be a sheep before you are a sheep. Before Christ you certainly were not a sheep because you did not follow the Shepard. You were not elect until you were in Christ.
The elect and the sheep are terms given to the flock that follows Christ They are saved. You were born in sin just like the rest of the world.
The underlined above. It was Christ that was lifted up not those who are drawn.
The drawn are only promised to be raised up on the last day. All will be raised up then some to glory and some to destruction because all are drawn
All people being drawn does not mean all will be saved, which would be universalism. There is a huge difference between being raised up and being saved.
All this and yet not once does scripture say exactly what you claim. I would suppose that you would be frustrated. Since scripture doesn't support your theory. In your interpretation it seems you actually rewrite scripture.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
You conveniently stop at verse 39 Why? Could it be that the next verse is distastefull.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Oh I know that "everyone" really means Everyone of the elect or all the sheep to you.
You're are right about one thing and that is I don't understand. I don't understand how you can call it interpretation when it is a complete rewrite of the gospel. Calvinism has added so much to the word of God that I'm surprised that God didn't consult you all before it was written.
MB
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