OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Since regeneration or the new birth is presented as a reality absent any discussion of faith it should be obvious to those with discernment that faith is not a requirement!
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The Doctrines of Grace and the preaching of the Gospel
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Since regeneration or the new birth is presented as a reality absent any discussion of faith it should be obvious to those with discernment that faith is not a requirement!
That's ridiculous, you can't just make up your own personal interpretation of scripture.
John 3:1-8 does not mention faith. So you cannot say it proves that regeneration precedes faith, and you cannot say it proves faith precedes regeneration. It simply does not address this particular subject. That is why it is error on your part to offer this as proof of your view. It doesn't prove anything.
Now, if you bothered to read the rest of the conversation Jesus had with Nicodemus you would see he repeatedly told Nicodemus he must believe to have life. You conveniently exclude these verses as if Jesus stopped speaking to Nick in verse 8.
Jhn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Why do you fail to mention all these verses Jesus spoke to Nicodemus? Jesus repeatedly tells Nicodemus he must believe to have life.
But you never mention these verses do you? No, because they refute your false doctrine. :thumbsup:
Let's look at another of Old Regular's "proofs" that regeneration precedes faith, Ephesians chapter 2.
Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Now where does this passage say or even hint that regeneration precedes faith? It says that God has quickened us when we were dead in trespasses and sins, but it does not mention whether this happened before or after faith.
So, you can't use this passage to prove that regeneration precedes faith, or to prove that faith precedes regeneration. Just like John 3:1-8, this passage is completely silent on this subject, so it is error to say it teaches regeneration precedes faith.
In fact, you can't find a reference to faith or believing until you get to verse 8, and this verse says "For by grace are ye saved THROUGH FAITH", so this verse refutes Old Regular and supports that faith precedes being saved or regenerated (quickened).
Again, you have not shown one verse of scripture that supports regeneration preceding faith. You can't, such scripture does not exist.
Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Now where does this passage say or even hint that regeneration precedes faith? It says that God has quickened us when we were dead in trespasses and sins, but it does not mention whether this happened before or after faith.
So, you can't use this passage to prove that regeneration precedes faith, or to prove that faith precedes regeneration. Just like John 3:1-8, this passage is completely silent on this subject, so it is error to say it teaches regeneration precedes faith.
In fact, you can't find a reference to faith or believing until you get to verse 8, and this verse says "For by grace are ye saved THROUGH FAITH", so this verse refutes Old Regular and supports that faith precedes being saved or regenerated (quickened).
Again, you have not shown one verse of scripture that supports regeneration preceding faith. You can't, such scripture does not exist.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
It is really quite simple Winman to those with discernment.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )
Perhaps you will have an epiphany and given the gift of discernment!
If you had discernment you would realize this verse refutes you.
Why were we dead? Because of our trespasses and sins!
What must you do to get rid of your trespasses and sins? BELIEVE!
I was being gracious to you before, this scripture actually supports faith preceding regeneration, because you must believe or you will die in your trespasses and sins.
Jhn 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
I ask you Old Regular, what did Jesus say? If you do not believe, what will happen to you?
So, obviously these persons in Ephesians 2:5 must have believed, because they were no longer dead in trespasses and sins. Because unless you believe, you will die in your sins. Correct?
This is so simple a little child could understand it, but you Reformed/Calvinists are so blinded by false doctrine that you cannot follow simple logic.
I don't think you guys are that stupid, you simply do not want to admit the truth to yourselves. You prefer your theology over the word of God.
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Your problem is Winman that you have "blinders" on; those things horses and mules wear to keep them from seeing a bigger picture. I challenge you to find a single person on this Forum who believes the Doctrines of Grace and yet denies that "Faith" is an integral aspect of Salvation!
thomas15
Well-Known Member
Is it me or did you just change the focus of the discussion? It has to be just me.
That is not the issue. What is the great issue is the order, because it determines whether men perish simply because they refuse to believe, or men perish because God passes over them and they are unable to believe.
If faith precedes regeneration, then all men are able to believe. If a man perishes, it is his own fault and choice. This is what Arminians/Non-Cals believe, and what ALL scripture shows. I have already showed half a dozen verses that all show faith preceding regeneration.
If regeneration precedes faith, then no man can believe unless God regenerates him. This makes God solely responsible as to whether a man lives or perishes. This is what Reformed/Calvinists believe and is not scriptural. You do not have one verse to support this.
Arminian/Non-Cal ---> The unbeliever perishes because they REFUSE to believe
Reformed/Calvinist ---> The unbeliever perishes because they are UNABLE to believe.
If faith precedes regeneration an unbeliever is 100% responsible for his unbelief. He could have believed if he chose to.
If regeneration precedes faith an unbeliever is 0% responsible for his unbelief. The unbeliever cannot possibly believe unless God chooses to make him able.
Order is very important, it is the true difference between the Arm/Non-Cal and the Ref/Cal.
All scripture shows faith precedes regeneration.
So, to be clear.....you want to make this an argument as to when faith begins right? Who cares!
This is whats the big dilemma?!? ROFL
This is whats the big dilemma?!? ROFL
If you cannot comprehend why this issue is of tremendous importance then you are a very ignorant person.
Yea .... I get your whole BS argument. If you can prove that you choose your salvation then you can put into motion your entire semi pelagian theology. Of course I havent seen you get anyone to buy into that crap except those already demented enough to fall into what you consider the line. From my prospective, you & all of your ilk can take a hike.
Show me from the word of God where the words life and or death are qualified as being spiritual or physical.
The word of God speaks of life and death. Period.
Man has divided each into a concept to fit their concept of what man is.
Man is and was created a living soul. Life. When sin was committed the living soul upon death would be dead. Non living. Death.
Who is the only living soul who ever drew a breath of life from the womb of his mother has died and then been made alive again? I believe someone in a previous post stated that this is regeneration, to be made alive again. Is it or isn't it?
I believe Paul stated this as being, the firstborn from the dead. Did he not?
Was Jesus being the firstborn from the dead speaking of the resurrection of Jesus from the dead?
Was the resurrection of Jesus from the dead a result of, Grace through the faith?
Was Jesus obedient unto death even the death of the cross?
Was Jesus, really dead? Did he actually die for us? Was Jesus paid the wages of sin?
Did Jesus receive the gift of God?
Will anyone else follow Jesus in the regeneration? Exactly when will Jesus be the firstborn among many brethren?
Will they then be in the image of the resurrected Jesus because they will have received the gift of God, eternal life, through Jesus Christ the Lord?
If our joint heir Jesus has not inherited this life, just what hope do we have of inheriting this life?
I believe it is all about Jesus the Son of God. Grace through the faith of Jesus.
Then at his appearing and his kingdom those in Christ will be changed whether living or dead to be just like the resurrected Jesus the Son of God.
The word of God speaks of life and death. Period.
Man has divided each into a concept to fit their concept of what man is.
Man is and was created a living soul. Life. When sin was committed the living soul upon death would be dead. Non living. Death.
Who is the only living soul who ever drew a breath of life from the womb of his mother has died and then been made alive again? I believe someone in a previous post stated that this is regeneration, to be made alive again. Is it or isn't it?
I believe Paul stated this as being, the firstborn from the dead. Did he not?
Was Jesus being the firstborn from the dead speaking of the resurrection of Jesus from the dead?
Was the resurrection of Jesus from the dead a result of, Grace through the faith?
Was Jesus obedient unto death even the death of the cross?
Was Jesus, really dead? Did he actually die for us? Was Jesus paid the wages of sin?
Did Jesus receive the gift of God?
Will anyone else follow Jesus in the regeneration? Exactly when will Jesus be the firstborn among many brethren?
Will they then be in the image of the resurrected Jesus because they will have received the gift of God, eternal life, through Jesus Christ the Lord?
If our joint heir Jesus has not inherited this life, just what hope do we have of inheriting this life?
I believe it is all about Jesus the Son of God. Grace through the faith of Jesus.
Then at his appearing and his kingdom those in Christ will be changed whether living or dead to be just like the resurrected Jesus the Son of God.
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Winman,
Whooosh....that is the sound of another verse going over your head....
They will die in their sins.....because they were born spiritually dead in Adam...they are dead in sin and condemned already.....
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
All who are not born from above will go to the second death.....just like OLD Regular explained to you.
Whooosh....that is the sound of another verse going over your head....
They will die in their sins.....because they were born spiritually dead in Adam...they are dead in sin and condemned already.....
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
All who are not born from above will go to the second death.....just like OLD Regular explained to you.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
That is 100% contrary to Scripture!
John 6:44. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
You guys are laughable. You really consider yourself scholars? John 8:24 does not say one word about being born in sin. That is your invention.
It does say that if a person does not believe in Jesus they shall die in their sins. So how can anybody be quickened as Ephesians 2:5 says unless they have believed?
You fellas lack common sense.
Looking at your avatar, chances are you won't even remember this in the morning.
As I posted....right over your head:laugh::laugh::laugh:
Quickening is another name for regeneration....it happens at the same time as conversion....being born from above.....a done deal:thumbs:
I have always said that it would be impossible for any man to believe on Jesus unless God first reveals Jesus to him. I have quoted Romans 10:14 dozens of times to support this.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
I have shown this verse dozens of times, perhaps your memory is failing you?
But once God reveals himself to any man, that man is able to choose to believe on Jesus or not. God does not have to supernaturally regenerate a man before he can believe.
All scripture shows the opposite, that God does not supernaturally regenerate a man until AFTER he believes.
You know what I am saying. It is impossible to be "quickened" until all your sins are forgiven. And your sins cannot be forgiven until you first believe.
Answer this question, can a man be "quickened" before he believes?
Answer that honestly if you dare.
winman
Jesus said he does....you say different. We believe what Jesus said.
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
except a man/he cannot enter.....you say he enters first...then God
Jesus said he does....you say different. We believe what Jesus said.
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
except a man/he cannot enter.....you say he enters first...then God