For Those Who Love The KJV

[Mexdeaf]

And I would have to say Bro Greg that anyone who blames that lukewarmness on the fact that people have the word of God in modern English is, in my opinion. sharing that same sand. Some of the most vibrant, dedicated, godly, most on fire for God Christians I know have never seen a King James Bible. I also know KJVO folks who are dead, listless, flat, and weak in their faith. I also know the opposite on each side.

True, I have never understood the viewpoint that our spiritual vitality depends upon having the One True Correct Book In The Correct Vernacular. For the first 400-1500 years of the Church they were not even sure which books WERE the Bible. Why cannot we rejoice that, in English, we have at least a dozen excellent translations and GET BUSY TRANSLATING THE WORD FOR THOSE WHO HAVE NONE? May God bless Wycliffe and others who are doing so.

(Sorry for the hijack...)

 

[robycop3]

Mr. Perry, with all due respect:

Your trying to blame the prophesied "great falling away' on Bible versions is just another incorrect KJVO excuse. NONE of the many excuses KJVOs have invented to attempt to justify their man-made doctrine are valid. The ONLY one that is valid is PERSONAL PREFERENCE. None other holds water.

It's been repeated ad nauseam that the KJVO myth has no Scriptural support, and also, what its MAN-MADE origin is. And Baptists should certainly not believe any man-made doctrine of worship.

Again, no prob with one's using only the KJV outta PERSONAL PREFERENCE, but when one disses every other Bible translation out there, that one is in serious error, trying to make GOD'S work to no effect.

 

[thomas15]

I doubt seriously that Bro.Knox loses any sleep over the matter. .....Bro.Greg:type:

Personally, and I mean this in the most sincere way possible, I'm not going to lose any sleep over Brother Knox not losing any sleep.

I took some time and read Brother Knox's church website. I'm sure Brother Knox is a fine gentleman and Christian and servant of the Lord and I do not doubt his calling. Nor do I doubt the considerable fruits of his calling. But based on my reading of the material on the website, Brother Knox appears to be at the helm of what I would classify as a high control organization. Different strokes for different folks but being of a rebellious nature, I will pass on that!

I also cannot help myself in speculating on an issue regarding Brother Knox at a personal level. Perhaps I'm wrong and I hope I am. Reading the bio of Brother Knox lists his higher education accomplishments. He left out the part about going to Bible college where he studied Hebrew and Greek. By listing those accomplishments in the languages of the Bible would add considerable credibility to his cause (KJVO). As this observation is so obvious and basic, I speculate that there might be perhaps a hole in Brother Knox's education? I hope I'm wrong.

 

[annsni]

Whatever.....you ARE entitled to think as you wish, but I firmly disagree with you. I bet if you walk into 95% (or better) of these "Community" or "Bible" or "You Pick The Trendy "Cool" Name" "Fellowship" or "Church" or even many of the more liberal non-fundamental "Baptist" churches you'd find a plethora of different Bible versions in the laps of those in the pews (or couches and chairs) (depending on the setting I guess) and anything BUT a KJV sitting on the pulpit. We have lost our way and our respect for the "old paths" in this corrupt generation.....and you'll never convince me that it doesn't have something to do with the abandonment of the old Bibles for something "modern" and "up to date"....and if I wasn't being charitable I wouldn't bother trying to tell the truth. Anybody that denies the compromise of our day and the general state of "lukewarmness" of today's modern church has, in my opinion, their head stuck in the sand.

Bro.Gregraying:

Yes, if you walk into my church, you will find a plethora of different Bible versions sitting in the laps of the congregation. However, you will not find any "lukewarmness" in the hearts of most but, in fact, will find hearts on fire for the Lord and young people praying about giving their lives to ministry.

It is not the version of the Bible but the view of the power of the Word of God that weakens us. When you say that God cannot use those who work hard to translate His Word for us today - that He is too weak to continue to preserve His Word today - and that there are no hearts bent towards Him unless they use the KJV, I believe that you are in actuality doing more harm and causing the Gospel to be tarnished. That is sad....and more.

 

[Mexdeaf]

When you say ... that there are no hearts bent towards Him unless they use the KJV, I believe that you are in actuality doing more harm and causing the Gospel to be tarnished. That is sad....and more.

Amen and that is why I detest, despise, and yes- HATE the KJVO doctrine.

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

Guess I ought To Clarify....

And I would have to say Bro Greg that anyone who blames that lukewarmness on the fact that people have the word of God in modern English is, in my opinion. sharing that same sand. Some of the most vibrant, dedicated, godly, most on fire for God Christians I know have never seen a King James Bible. I also know KJVO folks who are dead, listless, flat, and weak in their faith. I also know the opposite on each side.

Bro.Roger...while I know I won't get any agreement from the majority of the outspoken advocates of the MV's on this board and maybe even the KJV-preferred folks either, I guess I should have more clearly stated that I believe the "confusion" of so many new and different Bible versions in use is (in my opinion) a CONTRIBUTING FACTOR to the compromise and lukewarmness of the day......but it is certainly NOT the ONLY reason. That actually might make a good topic for discussion in the "general discussion" section of the board. I would at least partially agree with much of what you said above. I know that in the Southern Baptist congregation that my wife and I attend, the majority of the people I know haven't even got a clue that there is any kind of "issue" going on regarding the Bible Versions. The reason for this is that in the SBC churches I am familiar with there is nobody even discussing the topic. Most of the people I have spoken too have no idea that there is anything in question because they have not heard any teaching or preaching on the matter. I'm certainly not saying it is like that everywhere but it is around here... and I live within spittin' distance of Bob Jones and Greenville SC (and I know what THEY teach). In almost 9 years that I have been attending here I have never heard my own pastor even ONCE bring up the subject of Bible Versions/Translations from the pulpit and I know he is aware of the issue and he does preach primarily out of the KJV (though I have heard him quote a few others. It is a topic that is more often (in my opinion) spoken about by the IFB preachers/teachers. I have heard much preaching over the years by BOTH types of preachers. I don't think I have EVER heard an SBC preacher discuss the matter from the pulpit (from a pro-KJV stance)(including my own Pastor). Many (but not all) of them in the SBC are probably preaching/teaching out of the NIV, NKJV, or possibly the HCSB. Many of the Independents in my area have followed the influence of BJU and use the ESV or possibly the NASB. Some of them still use the KJV I'm sure. In my opinion, the trumpet in our day is blowing and uncertain sound and the spiritual condition in our country and our world bears the marks of that kind of influence. I know I am generalizing but I feel certain that I am at least partially correct. We desperately need revival. Beginning in my own heart....!

Bro.Greg

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

I Do Agree

True, I have never understood the viewpoint that our spiritual vitality depends upon having the One True Correct Book In The Correct Vernacular. For the first 400-1500 years of the Church they were not even sure which books WERE the Bible. Why cannot we rejoice that, in English, we have at least a dozen excellent translations and GET BUSY TRANSLATING THE WORD FOR THOSE WHO HAVE NONE? May God bless Wycliffe and others who are doing so.

(Sorry for the hijack...)

Mex.... that didn't sound like a "hijack" to me......I actually agree with you...although I know we differ on the "particulars".....I do agree that now that we do DEFINITELY have the Word of God in English we ought to throw as much as possible behind the effort of good and worthy translators making use of the best possible texts to translate the Word of God into as many languages as possible as the time of the end approaches. It is, I believe, one of the most pressing needs in the evangelistic mission the Lord has left us here for until He returns.

Bro.Greg

 

[annsni]

I guess I should have more clearly stated that I believe the "confusion" of so many new and different Bible versions in use is (in my opinion) a CONTRIBUTING FACTOR to the compromise and lukewarmness of the day......but it is certainly NOT the ONLY reason.

The only time I have ever even heard of confusion due to multiple versions is due to the KJVO camp stating that it's there. I never heard about KJVO until a few years ago and in my 40 years of being a believer, I've never once met a person who was confused by multiple versions. Ever.

 

[thomas15]

Mex.... that didn't sound like a "hijack" to me......I actually agree with you...although I know we differ on the "particulars".....I do agree that now that we do DEFINITELY have the Word of God in English we ought to throw as much as possible behind the effort of good and worthy translators making use of the best possible texts to translate the Word of God into as many languages as possible as the time of the end approaches. It is, I believe, one of the most pressing needs in the evangelistic mission the Lord has left us here for until He returns.

Bro.Greg

Brother Greg,

May I ask what would be the donor text for the new translations?

 

[Scarlett O.]

We have lost our way and our respect for the "old paths" in this corrupt generation.....and you'll never convince me that it doesn't have something to do with the abandonment of the old Bibles for something "modern" and "up to date"....and if I wasn't being charitable I wouldn't bother trying to tell the truth.

Dear brother, I like the King James and I agree that this generaton has lost respect for the "old paths". Just like every generation before it including the one specifically referred in the context of Jeremiah 6:16.

Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.

But I don't see the "old paths" of Jeremiah 6:16 as referring to a Bible version. If the King James Version of the Bible is the "old paths", then wouldn't even older English speaking Bibles be "better paths"? I guess what I am getting at is don't ALL valid and true Bible versions CONTAIN the old paths?

I did a word study on "old paths". The word, old, literally means something everlasting and of long duration and in continual existence.

This Bible verse literally means that "God said to [take one's stand; hold one's ground] in the [direction; course of life] and seek after and ask for the [everlasting path's of continual existence].......

To me, the old paths that God is asking us to seek after and walk in are the behaviors that show that we belong to Him and emulate Him. Goodness, holiness, purity, truth, mercy, obedience, reverence, patience ..... and Godly love. And the guidance for finding those paths can be found in lots of Bible other than the King James.

 

[Logos1560]

I have heard that kind of comparison before. It is obviously debatable but I do find it interesting that it is in fact true that (if I remember the account correctly)Moses did in fact have to make a copy (Deut.10:4,5) to replace the "originals" that were in fact "two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God."(Exodus 31:18). This was an instance of God's work of Preservation in regards to His perfect Word. The valid parallel is that the KJV was/is a continuation of that work of preservation.

God told Moses to hew two more tables [tablets] of stone, but God Himself wrote the exact same words again on them (Deut. 10:1-4). God said: "I will write on the tables the words that were in the first tables which thou [Moses] brakest" (Deut. 10:2).

God Himself writing down the same words again on two tablets of stone is not a valid parallel to the translating of the KJV.

The KJV does not preserve the exact same words that God gave by inspiration to the prophets and apostles. Different words in a different language is not preservation of the exact same original language words.

Would not the only actual sense in which preservation could be claimed to apply to a translation involve the meaning of the original language words and not the actual words? I would not think that you would suggest that the Bible's doctrine of preservation concerned dynamic equivalencies or meaning preservation instead of exact word preservation.

 

[Logos1560]

But I don't see the "old paths" of Jeremiah 6:16 as referring to a Bible version. If the King James Version of the Bible is the "old paths", then wouldn't even older English speaking Bibles be "better paths"? I guess what I am getting at is don't ALL valid and true Bible versions CONTAIN the old paths?

.

According to a consistent application of the reasoning that you had quoted, the KJV was the new path in 1611 while the Geneva Bible was the old path that believers should have stuck with.

Thus, you properly point out one serious problem with typical KJV-only reasoning. KJV-only reasoning cannot be applied consistently, especially to before 1611, without exposing that it is not actually scripturally sound.

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

Certainly...

Brother Greg,

May I ask what would be the donor text for the new translations?

Of Course....but need you really ask? It would be the Masoretic Hebrew text for the Old Testament and the Greek Received Text or Textus Receptus for the New Testament.......but I'm sure everybody here already knows what my answer would have been on that. I don't pretend to be qualified to argue the technicalities of the matter but that is what I accept as true after examining the evidence that I have (both for or against) over the course of the 30 plus years since I became aware of this issue.

Bro.Greg

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

I Wish There Was No Controversy...but....

The only time I have ever even heard of confusion due to multiple versions is due to the KJVO camp stating that it's there. I never heard about KJVO until a few years ago and in my 40 years of being a believer, I've never once met a person who was confused by multiple versions. Ever.

Lived a sheltered life have you???? Sorry :tongue3:...couldn't resist. Seriously though, like I think I said before.....many of the average folk sitting in the pew in my own church would probably fall into that same category. I'm not saying or even trying to imply that this issue should be overblown or made "the main thing" but I do think it is important and I do believe God's people should know the truth about things that are foundational to the integrity of the Word of God. For the record, I believe the "main things" ought to center around not only the Gospel and the spread of it, but also sound discipleship and the spiritual growth of our brothers and sisters in Christ once they have received the Lord. In my opinion those are the most important things. That said though, I believe that the inspiration, inerrancy, accuracy, and preserved perfection of the Word of God from whence we receive our faith IS foundational to everything we believe, say and do once we have come to faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. That Book is the authority for everything that really matters. It must by it's very nature be accurate and without error. I'm sticking by the one I know (KJV) because I'm certainly not presumptuous or smart enough to try to correct it and I don't have confidence that anyone else is either. Let the critics rage but that is where I stand.

Bro.Greg

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

That's good Sister.....

Dear brother, I like the King James and I agree that this generaton has lost respect for the "old paths". Just like every generation before it including the one specifically referred in the context of Jeremiah 6:16.



But I don't see the "old paths" of Jeremiah 6:16 as referring to a Bible version. If the King James Version of the Bible is the "old paths", then wouldn't even older English speaking Bibles be "better paths"? I guess what I am getting at is don't ALL valid and true Bible versions CONTAIN the old paths?

I did a word study on "old paths". The word, old, literally means something everlasting and of long duration and in continual existence.

This Bible verse literally means that "God said to [take one's stand; hold one's ground] in the [direction; course of life] and seek after and ask for the [everlasting path's of continual existence].......

To me, the old paths that God is asking us to seek after and walk in are the behaviors that show that we belong to Him and emulate Him. Goodness, holiness, purity, truth, mercy, obedience, reverence, patience ..... and Godly love. And the guidance for finding those paths can be found in lots of Bible other than the King James.

Sister Scarlett .....every thing you have to say in regard to Jeremiah 6:16 is true and excellent and I thank you sincerely for your comments. I know that the "old paths" reference cannot be "force-fit" to mean that it was speaking specifically of the KJV (or any other Bible version) but like many instances in scripture I do believe that it contains a principle that can be applied to many things (including the Word of God). In this case, I think that the passage in Jeremiah would teach us to respect and seek after things that are "tried and true" with proven fruit and wisdom and I personally believe the KJV most definitely meets that standard and fits that description.

Bro.Greg:saint:

 

[Baptist4life]

Originally Posted by annsni
The only time I have ever even heard of confusion due to multiple versions is due to the KJVO camp stating that it's there. I never heard about KJVO until a few years ago and in my 40 years of being a believer, I've never once met a person who was confused by multiple versions. Ever.

I don't know if "confused" is the right word, but I do know mutiple versions have caused QUESTIONS about the accuracy of the Word of God. We use various versions in our church, each member is free to use whatever version he likes, but our pastor preaches from the NKJV. Anyway, several times over the years, mostly during Sunday School classes or in Weds. night Bible study, questions were raised about the same things talked about here. Missing passages, included passages, different words, etc. So much so, that some actually doubted the Word of God. They weren't sure WHAT was actually supposed to be in the Bible. And if they "weren't sure about certain passages, how could they be sure of ANY of it"? Please don't stick your head in the sand and pretend it isn't happening. It is.

 

[Mexdeaf]

I don't know if "confused" is the right word, but I do know mutiple versions have caused QUESTIONS about the accuracy of the Word of God. We use various versions in our church, each member is free to use whatever version he likes, but our pastor preaches from the NKJV. Anyway, several times over the years, mostly during Sunday School classes or in Weds. night Bible study, questions were raised about the same things talked about here. Missing passages, included passages, different words, etc. So much so, that some actually doubted the Word of God. They weren't sure WHAT was actually supposed to be in the Bible. And if they "weren't sure about certain passages, how could they be sure of ANY of it"? Please don't stick your head in the sand and pretend it isn't happening. It is.

And that's GOOD! Faith, to grow, needs challenges!

 

[robycop3]

B4L, do U question the different wordings of the "Lord's Prayer" in different boox of the same translation? How about the different wording of the sign over Jesus' head on His cross? This differs among the four "Gospels". Or, do U do as I do and realize that each book was written by a different person from his own unique perception and writing ability?

While I was a cop, I might get accounts from four witnesses to the same accident, plus, I would have the accounts of those involved in the accident. From these accounts, plus the physical evidence, I would hafta determine what actually occurred as best I could, and write my report accordingly, taking into account my perception of witness credibility, etc.

Well, it's not that hard to see the truth of God's word, remembering that its various "boox" were written by different authors in different times and languages, with those same facts being applied to the various ancient manuscripts from which our Bible translations are made. I believe GOD caused them all to be made, that He's caused various translathins to have been made in many languages, and that He's done this to give us a broader overview of His word, to give the HOLY SPIRIT more to work with as He teaches us.

 

[Baptist4life]

Originally Posted by Baptist4life
......QUESTIONS about the accuracy of the Word of God

And that's GOOD!

Really?

 

[Baptist4life]

B4L, do U question the different wordings of the "Lord's Prayer" in different boox of the same translation? How about the different wording of the sign over Jesus' head on His cross? This differs among the four "Gospels". Or, do U do as I do and realize that each book was written by a different person from his own unique perception and writing ability?

While I was a cop, I might get accounts from four witnesses to the same accident, plus, I would have the accounts of those involved in the accident. From these accounts, plus the physical evidence, I would hafta determine what actually occurred as best I could, and write my report accordingly, taking into account my perception of witness credibility, etc.

Well, it's not that hard to see the truth of God's word, remembering that its various "boox" were written by different authors in different times and languages, with those same facts being applied to the various ancient manuscripts from which our Bible translations are made. I believe GOD caused them all to be made, that He's caused various translathins to have been made in many languages, and that He's done this to give us a broader overview of His word, to give the HOLY SPIRIT more to work with as He teaches us.

I'm telling you it's caused people to DOUBT the believability of Scripture. Too many Bibles don't agree. Some have a passage, others omit that passage. This raises questions as to the validity of ANY of Scripture. People on internet forums like this one argue over it! This causes doubts to arise. That's NOT a good thing.