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Featured Tracing the Origins of Coming on the Clouds

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Logos1, Jan 13, 2013.

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  1. Logos1

    Logos1 New Member

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    I think most futurist scholars would agree with me on this one

    Gentlemen I appreciate your comments and attempted rebuttals each and every one. I don’t mind any of the smart remarks and insults—extra credit will be given to those who can insult with a flair for the creative—you’re all riding C’s in that department so far—I hope a little more effort will be fourth coming in future posts.

    Well John (my Young Padawan) my mind was once closed to the notion of preterism, but it simply has the stronger argument so I eventually had to become a full preterist since I was seeking truth and not forcing a view point on the scriptures. You say you can disprove preterism with any greek text—please do so—my mind is wide open—disprove it—please do!!!! If you can do so what have you been waiting all this time for a personal invitation—there you have it.

    There is plenty of scholarly research that comes to the conclusion that Hebrew writers used Ugaritic literature which their audience was already familiar with to drive home their points to their audience. Baal was Yahweh’s biggest rival and they were supplanting his claims on cloud riding for instance by saying Yahweh “The one true God” was the real cloud rider. Cloud riding wasn’t the only instance where they did this. If you were half the scholar you tell us you are you would already know this.

    Another example, for instance, is the throne room scene in Daniel 7 which is similar to various throne room scenes in Ugaritic literature such as when EL bestows kingship upon Baal.

    1. El is the ancient high council—think—Ancient of Days
    2. El bestows kingship upon Baal the cloudrider after he defeats Yamm-think –Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven who has defeated the beast.
    3. Baal becomes king of gods, El’s visor, and has everlasting rule—think Son of Man given all dominion and rules at right hand of the Ancient of Days.

    You can deny it all day my young Padawan—but facts is facts—the similarity is too striking for any honest reading to deny the influence of Ugaritic literature on Hebrew literature. Hebrew writers worked with what their audience was already familiar with – since we believe the whole bible is divinely inspired you have to say the Holy Spirit worked within the context of what the Jewish people were already familiar with to first introduce Jesus to a Hebrew audience. My faith in the Trinity and the Holy Scriptures is strong enough to deal with that—yours apparently is not.

    You will of course say it can’t be proven—but you can’t prove they didn't and the evidence is on my side as you can see above. Many scholars which are futurists are also on my side here as well.

    This post is long enough I’ll continue in the next one.
     
    #21 Logos1, Jan 14, 2013
  2. Logos1

    Logos1 New Member

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    The levels of heaven

    John My young Padawan I have to laugh at how you will cherry pick scripture to make a twisted point instead of taking the balance of it on a given point as a whole as if Preterists don’t know about related text in the NT.

    You want to say Elijah was taken into heaven and not the sky—allow me to share a little known secret with you—there were 3 heavens to the Hebrew writers

    1st Heaven---the clouds
    2nd Heaven—the stars
    3rd Heaven—the realm where God dwells

    Saying Elijah being taken into heaven is equivalent to saying he was taken into the clouds as in first heaven. We know he didn’t go into the realm of God since John 3:13 says No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. I can hardly believe God’s gift to greek text interpretation overlooked that or thought he could weasel it by me. LOL.

    Obviously Enoch didn’t go to heaven either since John 3:13 would cover his relocation also. Your lack of knowledge about the book of Hebrews astounds me. After quoting the Hebrews 11:5 in regards to his being taken up so he wouldn’t die (at that moment and place—but obviously he died later) Hebrews 11:13 says THESE ALL DIED in faith without having received the promises.

    But I digress just to point out the poor bible knowledge or intentional taking out of context you routinely demonstrate to support the unsupportable contention that Christ will come back in the future in bodily form.

    As for Christ accession every preterist I know of here repeatedly tells you we believe in the literal accession—you just don’t want to allow us to believe it.

    Bottom line when Christ refers to Himself as the Son of man he is referring back to Daniel 7:13—as in the one coming on the clouds—you can say coming on the clouds has a context of coming in judgment and kingship and is used to associate the new deity first introduced in Daniel 7 as having the same cloud riding credentials as Yahweh. Nowhere in the NT, OT, or pagan literature did riding clouds ever contend that a deity would be seen literally riding clouds across the sky.

    And, nowhere in the entire bible can you fine one verse that says Christ will return in a physical body.

    In your posts today you were out of your depth even in the greek text trying to twist them to suit your desired view point.
     
    #22 Logos1, Jan 14, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 14, 2013
  3. Logos1

    Logos1 New Member

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    Happy New Year OR

    Old Regular old Buddy how are you my brother—good to see you back. I hope you are well. I hope Old Santa was good to you.

    LOL—I feel very safe in saying I have never quoted the NIT (nearly inspired translation) ESV, HCSV most often, maybe some ASV and Young’s literal even Darby—but it pains my heart that you would try to twist my quotes into the NIT and not realize the HCSV (We Southern Baptist spear headed the HCSV you know) also uses the term clouds. I don’t have a problem at all with the use of desert—it wouldn’t change the big point here.

    Old Regular, Old Buddy, Old Pal—if you aren’t familiar with such terms for God as Yahweh, Jehovah, Ancient of Days etc., etc. then I suggest you bone up a little on your various terms for God used in various translations.

    I feel like we are one in the spirit tonight OR—it takes a whole heaping of imagination to figure how futurists could deny the soon coming of Christ, twist coming on the clouds into a bodily flying across the sky by Christ for His return, and take so many statements like those who pierced Christ would see His return and try to imagine He said He would be coming back thousands of years in the future.

    In the end it doesn't seem so much a question of imagination as of pride—too prideful to admit when the scriptures are against your position and you are wrong.

    P.S. tell Thomas15 I missed getting any real comment from him tonight.

    And to all a good night.
     
    #23 Logos1, Jan 14, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 14, 2013
  4. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    I hope you don't mind if I leave out all the extraneous and smarmy stuff here. :saint:
    I did that on this thread and asterisktom was not able to answer my points from the Greek: http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=71628

    But just for you, note the Greek of Acts 1:11 (all the Greek texts read the same in the following places) where outoV is "this same" referring to Christ. So the same person, Christ, will come again. How will he come? "In the same way" (Greek outwV, an adverb modifying the verb "go) as He went--literally, physically, flying up into the clouds. So the same Jesus will come back in the same way.

    Unless you believe the whole book of Acts is a metaphor instead of the historical document it was presented by Luke as in his intro, then this too is a historical event, and the 2nd coming of Christ in the clouds is promised as a literal, historical event.

    And I guess you refuse to answer whether or not you believe the Ascension of Christ to be a literal, historical event. Right? Please answer. Are you refusing to answer that?
    It hasn't been proven, you didn't prove it (come on, where is your own original research?) and it can't be proven. Case closed. OP answered.

    Maybe I'll get to that one tomorrow.
     
    #24 John of Japan, Jan 15, 2013
  5. thomas15

    thomas15 Well-Known Member

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    Logos1: poster child for legislation requiring that even Vitiman E should be sold in child-proof bottles.
     
    #25 thomas15, Jan 15, 2013
  6. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Very well...I will shun future study of preterism because I don't want to become like you.
     
    #26 InTheLight, Jan 15, 2013
  7. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Typical Yankee, no sense of humor. :D
     
    #27 kyredneck, Jan 15, 2013
  8. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    I presume since you are into Hebrew and Greek you won't mind if I use English will you Word-1?


    It was you O great Word-1 who twisted the Scripture wording of Jesus Christ coming in the clouds into "flying across the sky." Your smart aleck remark, "flying across the sky." is sacrilegious if not blasphemous. I quote from your OP O-Great Word-1. Please read excerpts from your OP to refresh your memory! I have taken the liberty of providing emphasis to reduce the effort!

    I would also note O_Great Word-1 that you are the only person posting on this Forum that I have seen using PAGAN writings/customs to defend your doctrine. This is the Baptist Board, a people of the Book. If you cannot defend your doctrine using the Bible then it is false at best! I suspect you are an embarrassment to other full preterists who post on this Board.
     
    #28 OldRegular, Jan 15, 2013
  9. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Come! Come! O_Great Word-1! Forced to use PAGAN writings again? Your rantings remind me of the experience of Elijah with the priests of Baal with whom you seem to be enamored!

    1 Kings 18:21-29
    21. And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.
    22. Then said Elijah unto the people, I, even I only, remain a prophet of the LORD; but Baal’s prophets are four hundred and fifty men.
    23 Let them therefore give us two bullocks; and let them choose one bullock for themselves, and cut it in pieces, and lay it on wood, and put no fire under: and I will dress the other bullock, and lay it on wood, and put no fire under:
    24. And call ye on the name of your gods, and I will call on the name of the LORD: and the God that answereth by fire, let him be God. And all the people answered and said, It is well spoken.
    25. And Elijah said unto the prophets of Baal, Choose you one bullock for yourselves, and dress it first; for ye are many; and call on the name of your gods, but put no fire under.
    26. And they took the bullock which was given them, and they dressed it, and called on the name of Baal from morning even until noon, saying, O Baal, hear us. But there was no voice, nor any that answered. And they leaped upon the altar which was made.
    27. And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked.
    28. And they cried aloud, and cut themselves after their manner with knives and lancets, till the blood gushed out upon them.
    29. And it came to pass, when midday was past, and they prophesied until the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that there was neither voice, nor any to answer, nor any that regarded.

    Now I am not going to show what happened to those false god worshippers O_Great Word-1 it might upset you! And we don't want to do that do we?
     
    #29 OldRegular, Jan 15, 2013
  10. Greektim

    Greektim Well-Known Member

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    I believe he is arguing that many OT motifs are sprung from many common myths of the surrounding area. And the Bible does interact w/ those myths (in a sarcastic way at times) such as Ps 29 (especially v. 3 best understood as a reference to Yam).
     
    #30 Greektim, Jan 15, 2013
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    So there was not a cloud that appeared with Elijah/Moses spoke to the Lord?
     
    #31 Yeshua1, Jan 15, 2013
  12. Greektim

    Greektim Well-Known Member

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    Just making the point that logos1 isn't wrong for citing pagan mythological stories. The Bible clearly makes reference to them. But I'm not siding with logos1 either. Just sayin'.
     
    #32 Greektim, Jan 15, 2013
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  13. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Once again I'll skip the extraneous material, the silly SW stuff and the jealous insults about my Greek training, experience and ability.
    You are misinterpreting John 3:13. First of all, the Greek term for "ascended" is anabainw, which is the term used for purposeful "going up" such as "going up to Jerusalem." The word used for Enoch being "translated" in Heb. 11:5 is metatiqhmi, a different word entirely. The point is that Jesus could go up to Heaven on His own, but Elijah and Enoch were taken up by the Lord--two different concepts. So simply because Jesus could ascend into Heaven on His own does not mean that no human other than Jesus ever went there. Other humans were taken there either miraculously like Elijah and Enoch, or at death.

    That should be enough to prove my point, though I could also discuss the verb tense used.
    First of all, I don't remember any preterist saying to me in particular that they believed in a literal ascension. Maybe you can give me a link on the BB to show they have. Secondly, you are using the word "accession" not "ascension." Why?

    Please be clear. Do you believe in a literal, physical ascension of Christ to Heaven, or do you not?
    I have no problem with Christ referring back to 7:13. And as I have pointed out contra your OP and your unsupported opinion, the pagan idea is Baal controlling the weather, not descending to earth "on a cloud" as you keep putting it. So the pagan belief is different from the OT passages, thus meaning they did not influence the Word of God. You've not yet answered this point--I don't think you can.
    See my other post on Acts 1:11--Christ ascended physically to Heaven, according to Luke a historical event, so "this same Jesus" (outoV o ihsouV) will descend "in the same way" (outwV). That is a physical return clearly stated in the Word of God.
     
    #33 John of Japan, Jan 15, 2013
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  14. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    John of Japan,
    For a layman like me, what web site or book would you recommend as a reference for translating Greek and Hebrew into English? I will never learn the language like you, but would like a solid reference without searching the internet everytime the situation comes up. Thanks for your response in advance.
     
    #34 saturneptune, Jan 15, 2013
  15. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    I recommend the e-sword free Bible software at www.e-sword.net. It gives easy access to adequate (though not the best) Greek and Hebrew dictionaries even if you can't read the languages. (You do have to download the dictionaries also) There is also an old free software program called Seedmaster that can still be downloaded at various places on the Internet (works on any Windows but Windows 7 and maybe Vista) which not only parses the words but gives explanations about the tenses etc.

    For a book for the layman I recommend Vine's (http://www.amazon.com/dp/0785211608/?tag=baptis04-20).
     
    #35 John of Japan, Jan 15, 2013
  16. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    I don't agree with your remark about Psalms 29:3. The Psalm reads:

    Psalms 29:1-11
    1. Give unto the LORD, O ye mighty, give unto the LORD glory and strength.
    2. Give unto the LORD the glory due unto his name; worship the LORD in the beauty of holiness.
    3. The voice of the LORD is upon the waters: the God of glory thundereth: the LORD is upon many waters.
    4. The voice of the LORD is powerful; the voice of the LORD is full of majesty.
    5. The voice of the LORD breaketh the cedars; yea, the LORD breaketh the cedars of Lebanon.
    6 He maketh them also to skip like a calf; Lebanon and Sirion like a young unicorn.
    7. The voice of the LORD divideth the flames of fire.
    8. The voice of the LORD shaketh the wilderness; the LORD shaketh the wilderness of Kadesh.
    9. The voice of the LORD maketh the hinds to calve, and discovereth the forests: and in his temple doth every one speak of his glory.
    10. The LORD sitteth upon the flood; yea, the LORD sitteth King for ever.
    11. The LORD will give strength unto his people; the LORD will bless his people with peace.

    It is irrational to believe that in the midst of the praise of the LORD a remark regarding a PAGAN god would be inserted: the God of glory thundereth: Is the LORD the God of Glory? And then there is this:


    Job 40:9. Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him?
     
    #36 OldRegular, Jan 15, 2013
  17. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Try this: http://onlinebible.net

    There is a free download. For a nominal cost there are numerous Versions and helps.
     
    #37 OldRegular, Jan 15, 2013
  18. Logos1

    Logos1 New Member

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    Amen

    You are right of course—and I know they realize it too. They just can’t make a valid counter argument based on scripture so they twist what is well established and documented in scholarly works to change the context it is used in.
     
    #38 Logos1, Jan 16, 2013
  19. Logos1

    Logos1 New Member

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    Dear Lighted one,

    LOL, you keep saying that but you keep coming back here to read what I post—why don’t you just go away if you are so disgusted with it—I don’t think you can leave. I think deep down you are drawn to the posts that you consider the best argued, best reasoned, and the best interpretation of scripture!

    Thanks for your support!
     
    #39 Logos1, Jan 16, 2013
  20. Logos1

    Logos1 New Member

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    Dear Old Regulator,

    I’ll raise you from a C to a C+ (and that is being generous) for insults since I haven’t heard Word 1 before, but the rest of your material came out of the dust bin. Maybe you could rhyme sacrilegious or blasphemous or use them in a limerick for example.

    Concerned about upsetting me—thanks for the concern man! I hope you got a brownie point in heaven today.

    *Hugs*

    I love how you have twisted around coming in the clouds and flying across the sky. I’m the one who is making the point that coming in the clouds doesn’t mean Jesus goes flying across the sky—it’s the futurists who insists it does mean Jesus literally goes flying across the sky and every eyeball will see him. On this page and the next page JOJ is adamant that Jesus went flying up into the clouds physically and will fly back down physically. Maybe you two need to get together to coordinate a consistent futurist position. LOL.

    OR—does this mean you don’t believe he will come back physically—are you becoming a preterist—I could be having a most beneficial effect on you OR.
     
    #40 Logos1, Jan 16, 2013
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