Tracing the Origins of Coming on the Clouds

[John of Japan]

John,

You and I may disagree on the particular events related to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, I take the amillennial view, but I believe, and I believe Scripture teaches most clearly, that Jesus Christ will return in the full Glory of the Godhead, there will be a resurrection of all the dead followed by the White Throne Judgment, and all the redeemed of God shall live throughout eternity in the New Heavens and New Earth. For the believer Scripture says it well:

Titus 2:13. Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Revelation 21:1-7
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2* And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3* And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4* And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5* And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6* And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7* He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

That glorious appearing has not happened yet. God had the Scripture written for all His redeemed throughout time, not some of it just for those who lived prior to the destruction of Jerusalem!

Amen, brother! This glorious and blessed hope is a fundamental doctrine of the faith.

 

[Logos1]

This thread is on p. 20, so it will probably be shut down soon and I want to say something.

First of all, I thank God for the grace to ignore the vitriol that came my way in virtually every single preterist post. The accusations of "whining" when I obeyed Christ by confronting the offender (Matt. 18) were fairly riduculous to me, but God gives grace there too.

Next, I want to thank God for the blessed hope of the appearing of Christ. I have examined carefully and honestly virtually every single Scripture about the 2nd Coming over and over, have honestly researched and taught through many of the prophetic books and passages in either Japanese, English or both, and my faith that Christ is coming in physically and imminently remains strong. I love Him with all that I am and love His appearing (2 Tim. 4:8), and have given my life to serve Him while waiting for Him and praying often "Even so, come, Lord Jesus" (Rev. 22:20).

There are so many, many Scriptures about the 2nd coming, the BB cannot contain them all! But the ones about Him coming in the air (yes, flying) are all precious to me. I believe them as is, literally, with no "interpretation" or denial. And they give me peace and hope and help me to seek to live a holy life ("Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure."--1 John 3:2-3).

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Matt. 24:30).

"Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven" (Matt. 26:64).

"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory" (Mark 13:26).

"And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven" (Mark 14:52).

"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (1 Thess. 4:17).

"Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen" (Rev. 1:7).

John it is really nice that all the scripture on the second coming is precious to you….as it should be. I’m sure you are not implying that it is not precious to me as well.

All the scripture that you have cut and pasted here do pertain to a coming of Christ, but you haven’t explained why they support a future, physical coming in the manner that I have explained how they support a coming in judgment in 70 AD. You have simply chosen to define them as you wish…and you complain about my exegesis.

All you have done here is make a nice declaration of fidelity to scripture. That much is implied by every person here by fiat in that they are Baptist and hold to general Baptist faith such as the bible is divinely inspired, is to be accepted by a believer, and teaches us how to obtain eternal salvation.

I won’t bother repeating all the points of my last post—I’ll just point out that you have made no counter argument based on scripture that points to how Revelation cold be fulfilled post 70 AD.

I was totally entertained to read your comments on my comments on your whining. In every post here I do believe you complain about how you are treated, spoken to, referred to, about this and about that, whatever ….maybe you define yourself by how others see you and so you need to manage their opinion of you…I don’t know.

I haven’t complained once about your comments about me, what you think of me, what you say about me (or anyone else)….I don’t need to worry myself with your or other’s opinion. I don’t get worked up over the insults of anyone else. I know who I am and I’m not worried about what other people say on a bulletin board.

Maybe you should not worry yourself so much with what you think other people think and just be your own man.

 

[OldRegular]

I won’t bother repeating all the points of my last post—I’ll just point out that you have made no counter argument based on scripture that points to how Revelation cold be fulfilled post 70 AD.

I suspect that a lot of people wondered how the following Scripture could be fulfilled. Sadly, there are many who still deny that it was fulfilled.

Isaiah 7:14. Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

It is not the task of "grasshoppers" to determine how God will fulfill His promises.

Isaiah 40:18-22
18. To whom then will ye liken God? or what likeness will ye compare unto him?
19. The workman melteth a graven image, and the goldsmith spreadeth it over with gold, and casteth silver chains.
20. He that is so impoverished that he hath no oblation chooseth a tree that will not rot; he seeketh unto him a cunning workman to prepare a graven image, that shall not be moved.
21. Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?
22. It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

 

[DHK]

Ah, granted I should clarify that with most scholars of a preterist persuasion today; however, I have seen more than one futurist that will readily admit that all of the bible was written before 70 AD.

If you know anything about the history of views on dating the book of revelation you know it is much more fashionable today to say it was written in 90 AD than it was a few hundred years ago.

Preterist Extraordinairé Logos1.....JOJ

I don't think it has to do with "fashion."
It has to do with more available research tools, more evidence, etc. We build on the work of those who have gone on before us. More information comes to light as the years press on. That is the reason more scholars in recent years believe Revelation was written in the 90's.

 

[John of Japan]

Maybe you should not worry yourself so much with what you think other people think and just be your own man.

Funny to see this thread still going. I was pretty much through with you, but I thought I'd try one more time to get past your facade of trash talking.

First of all, I care not at all what you are anyone else on the BB thinks of me, except for one other who is a real life friend from even before the Internet. What I care about is what God thinks of me. So you have completely misunderstood my comments to you. Anyone who knows me in real life would be quite entertained that you think I'm a whiner.

Please try to understand, and I mean this sincerely. What you call "whining" has been what I believe to be Biblical rebuke, a genuine, heart-felt attempt to get you to see what you are doing and change your ways. Please see my recent thread on an Internet code of ethics that is in my heart and I live by. You will see an explanation there of what you think to be "whining." It matters not in the slightest to me if you change or not, but it matters completely to that I obey God in open and honest confrontation of those who offend.

Do you have your own code of Internet ethics? If so, are you not then by definition acting without ethics every time you post?

My expectation based on your demeanor so far is that you will not pay an iota of attention to what I am saying in this post. Prove me wrong and interact rationally and maturely with me about this.

 

[John of Japan]

I don't think it has to do with "fashion."
It has to do with more available research tools, more evidence, etc. We build on the work of those who have gone on before us. More information comes to light as the years press on. That is the reason more scholars in recent years believe Revelation was written in the 90's.

I agree completely.

 

[Tom Bryant]

Funny to see this thread still going. I was pretty much through with you, but I thought I'd try one more time to get past your facade of trash talking.

First of all, I care not at all what you are anyone else on the BB thinks of me, except for one other who is a real life friend from even before the Internet. What I care about is what God thinks of me. So you have completely misunderstood my comments to you. Anyone who knows me in real life would be quite entertained that you think I'm a whiner.

Please try to understand, and I mean this sincerely. What you call "whining" has been what I believe to be Biblical rebuke, a genuine, heart-felt attempt to get you to see what you are doing and change your ways. Please see my recent thread on an Internet code of ethics that is in my heart and I live by. You will see an explanation there of what you think to be "whining." It matters not in the slightest to me if you change or not, but it matters completely to that I obey God in open and honest confrontation of those who offend.

Do you have your own code of Internet ethics? If so, are you not then by definition acting without ethics every time you post?

My expectation based on your demeanor so far is that you will not pay an iota of attention to what I am saying in this post. Prove me wrong and interact rationally and maturely with me about this.

JoJ,
I have been reading thru this thread since I am currently preaching thru Revelation on Sunday night. I have a particular pov about eschatology but desire to understand the other viewpoints.

But as I go read thru them, I am reminded of something I heard your grandfather say in talking about preaching and conducting yourself. He said that he didn't care how many people disagreed with him about his position, but he never wanted anyone to disagree with him because of his disposition.

Logos1 would have done well to have known that truth.

 

[John of Japan]

JoJ,
I have been reading thru this thread since I am currently preaching thru Revelation on Sunday night. I have a particular pov about eschatology but desire to understand the other viewpoints.

But as I go read thru them, I am reminded of something I heard your grandfather say in talking about preaching and conducting yourself. He said that he didn't care how many people disagreed with him about his position, but he never wanted anyone to disagree with him because of his disposition.

Logos1 would have done well to have known that truth.

I remember him saying that. He always sought to be gracious to his opponents in debate, even to liberals (though sometimes sharp with them) as evidenced by several of his books which are compilations of those letters.

 

[Logos1]

Funny to see this thread still going. I was pretty much through with you, but I thought I'd try one more time to get past your facade of trash talking.

First of all, I care not at all what you are anyone else on the BB thinks of me, except for one other who is a real life friend from even before the Internet. What I care about is what God thinks of me. So you have completely misunderstood my comments to you. Anyone who knows me in real life would be quite entertained that you think I'm a whiner.

Please try to understand, and I mean this sincerely. What you call "whining" has been what I believe to be Biblical rebuke, a genuine, heart-felt attempt to get you to see what you are doing and change your ways. Please see my recent thread on an Internet code of ethics that is in my heart and I live by. You will see an explanation there of what you think to be "whining." It matters not in the slightest to me if you change or not, but it matters completely to that I obey God in open and honest confrontation of those who offend.

Do you have your own code of Internet ethics? If so, are you not then by definition acting without ethics every time you post?

My expectation based on your demeanor so far is that you will not pay an iota of attention to what I am saying in this post. Prove me wrong and interact rationally and maturely with me about this.

Sorry to take so long to reply. To some of us posting has to take a back seat to our work. Overtime and logging in from home is to frequent to worry much about posting these days.

I do fine it curious that you constantly complain if you like that word better than whine about how I talk to you. I never bother with how you or your fellow futurists talk to me. If let that bother me I would be here at all.

You will be delighted to know I do have a code of ethics that I live by when posting.

I have never tried to stick heresy on a poster (despite the many times it has been done to me). I have never questioned anybody’s salvation (as some do to me). I assume it is save to believe most everybody in here knows the Lord as Savior regardless of their views on any subject.

I don’t personally attack anyone. Although DHK likes to put those words in my mouth—but he has his own definition that is unique to himself and it comes with the territory when you are a preterist to get unique definitions applied to you.

I never let what you say or how you say it bother me John. My only frustration with you ever is when you dodge a question or seek to squirm around it.

However, it seems whatever I say to you—you find a way to take offense with it. In the end we all have to decide what we will take offense with I guess.

 

[Logos1]

JoJ,
I have been reading thru this thread since I am currently preaching thru Revelation on Sunday night. I have a particular pov about eschatology but desire to understand the other viewpoints.

But as I go read thru them, I am reminded of something I heard your grandfather say in talking about preaching and conducting yourself. He said that he didn't care how many people disagreed with him about his position, but he never wanted anyone to disagree with him because of his disposition.

Logos1 would have done well to have known that truth.

Tom,

You are very similar to myself in that regard. I’m always interested in what others believe and why they believe it. I was a premil most of my life, but could never feel I got consistent, complete, or satisfactory answers from any futurist view point.

I fought preterism myself at first. Being a futurist all my life it was hard to accept something so different than what I had been taught and believed for so long. But more than anything else I just wanted the truth regardless of where it led.

Preterism kept providing those answers. Eventually I had to acknowledge I was wrong in my thinking as a futurist and follow where the Holy Spirit led me. Reading the bible from a preterist view point I find it consistent all the way through and never contradicting itself. I am finally at peace with everything in biblical prophecy. It is such a comfortable position to finally be in. Believe me I thank God for it.