Tracing the Origins of Coming on the Clouds

[HisWitness]

Maybe you can deal with what Logos1 absolutely refuses to. If Revelation was written in 60 AD as you preterists think, then how is 10 years to 70 AD called "shortly"? How is it a "soon coming" from 60 to 70, ten whole years?

well taking that they didnt know the hour or day he would come,but knew he said it would be in that generation before they passed away--theres no other word that can be used beside shortly or soon

 

[HisWitness]

Um, no, Clarke's commentary does not answer me. He simply states with no proof that Rev. was written before 70, not saying how 60 to 70 is "soon." And the preterists on the BB have ceretainly not answered me. I've made the point over and over on this thread, and preterist extrordinaire Logos1 won't even touch it.

So you tell me, how is ten years "soon"?

nothing anyone says to you will matter you have your mind made up after what you hold to be right and you will believe nothing else

 

[Grasshopper]

Um, no, Clarke's commentary does not answer me. He simply states with no proof that Rev. was written before 70, not saying how 60 to 70 is "soon." And the preterists on the BB have ceretainly not answered me. I've made the point over and over on this thread, and preterist extrordinaire Logos1 won't even touch it.

So you tell me, how is ten years "soon"?

Funny, I've grown up in SBC churches now almost 50 years old and I can't tell you how many times I've heard Dispie preachers and teachers telling me Jesus is coming back soon. It been going on long before my birth. So I guess we can agree they were all liars.:thumbs:

Secondly in the context of an Old Covenant that was 1500 years old, to say those alive would see its end clearly falls in the 'soon" category.

Would Christ returning in 2025 not be considered near or soon? Not sure why you make this argument, it is your weakest.

 

[John of Japan]

if you think thousands of years is shortly then i can say nothing that will cause you to believe otherwise

No, no, I'm not asking about that. I've already said that futurism has a time problem (though I believe it can easily be solved). What I'm saying is that preterism also has a time problem.

Now once again, here is the question that apparently no preterist on the BB wants to anwer. (Prove me wrong.) If Rev. was written in 60 AD, and fulfilled in 70 AD, how is that "soon"?

 

[John of Japan]

Funny, I've grown up in SBC churches now almost 50 years old and I can't tell you how many times I've heard Dispie preachers and teachers telling me Jesus is coming back soon. It been going on long before my birth. So I guess we can agree they were all liars.:thumbs:

Secondly in the context of an Old Covenant that was 1500 years old, to say those alive would see its end clearly falls in the 'soon" category.

Would Christ returning in 2025 not be considered near or soon? Not sure why you make this argument, it is your weakest.

Sigh. If it is my weakest argument, then answer it. It should be very easy for you to answer if it's my weakest argument. Duck soup in fact! I don't care about the preachers you've heard say "Christ is coming soon." I'm asking about preterism's view of Rev.

If Rev. was written in 60 AD and Christ came in 70 AD, how is that "soon"? Is ten years soon to you in 2013?

 

[John of Japan]

nothing anyone says to you will matter you have your mind made up after what you hold to be right and you will believe nothing else

As I thought, you can't answer it. And Logos1 can't answer it.

 

[Grasshopper]

Sigh. If it is my weakest argument, then answer it. It should be very easy for you to answer if it's my weakest argument. Duck soup in fact! I don't care about the preachers you've heard say "Christ is coming soon." I'm asking about preterism's view of Rev.

If Rev. was written in 60 AD and Christ came in 70 AD, how is that "soon"? Is ten years soon to you in 2013?

Dude, read my post.

 

[DHK]

Sure it was future to them BUT SHORTLY to come as the bible teaches

[FONT=&quot]Romans 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Shall bruise (suntripsei). Future active of suntribô, old verb, to rub together, to crush, to trample underfoot. Blessed promise of final victory over Satan by "the God of peace." "Shortly" (en tachei). As God counts time. Meanwhile patient loyalty from us. (A.T. Robertson)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Must shortly come to pass (dei genesthai en tachei). Second aorist middle infinitive of ginomai with dei. See this same adjunct (en tachei) in Lu 18:8; Ro 16:20; Re 22:6. It is a relative term to be judged in the light of 2Pe 3:8 according to God's clock, not ours. And yet undoubtedly the hopes of the early Christians looked for a speedy return of the Lord Jesus. (Robertson)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Deuteronomy 4:26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]--that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto you go over Jordan to possess it; though they were now about to go over Jordan and inherit the land of Canaan, yet they would not enjoy it long, but be taken and carried captive out of it; as the ten tribes were by Shalmaneser king of Assyria, and the two tribes by Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, and both for their idolatry and other crimes. (Gill)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]--Note that the words in Deuteronomy 4 were spoken by Moses. The Exodus (led by Moses), took place in 1440 B.C. Soon after that Judah went into captivity in 586 B.C., or about 800 years later. Now there is a definition of “soon.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Jesus said he will come quickly. Paul defined quickly as “in the twinkling of an eye,” which is much faster than blinking an eye. That is quick. But he didn’t put a time frame on it. He simply said it would be quick. Three times Jesus said “I come quickly.” [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]There are dozens of other examples in the Bible as to the meanings of these words. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I work with the elderly. They come near to the end of their days after ninety or so years and tell us “how quickly” those years have gone by, “what a short time it has been,” and various other expressions. It all depends on the context, and from whose vantage point you are looking from doesn’t it? From God’s vantage point “soon” may be a very long time. [/FONT]

 

[John of Japan]

well taking that they didnt know the hour or day he would come,but knew he said it would be in that generation before they passed away--theres no other word that can be used beside shortly or soon

Well, sure there is! The Scripture could have said "in a few years" or "after a while."

 

[John of Japan]

Dude, read my post.

I did and you did not answer me. It's a linguistic problem. The word "soon" simply cannot mean "ten years" in normal usage. If it can then give me an example from contemporary usage in English (or koine Greek) in which it does.

Example as to why "soon" does not mean a span of time as long as ten years: "Mable, I'm going out to play basketball with the guys and trash-talk like Logos1 taught me. I'll be back soon, in maybe ten years." You see, no one uses the word "soon" like you are suggesting. So preterism has a time statements problem.

I'll be waiting until you give me a good linguistic answer. Otherwise, I'm doing Bible translation work today and can't get back to this until this evening.

 

[Grasshopper]

["Shortly" (en tachei). As God counts time. Meanwhile patient loyalty from us. (A.T. Robertson)[/FONT][/SIZE]

That's his assumption created to fit his eschatology. You, like Robertson don't belive God communicated in a way in which the readers would understand. Instead He used code words such as "shortly" to not mean what it normally means but actually just the opposite.

 

[DHK]

["Shortly" (en tachei). As God counts time. Meanwhile patient loyalty from us. (A.T. Robertson)[/FONT][/SIZE]

That's his assumption created to fit his eschatology. You, like Robertson don't belive God communicated in a way in which the readers would understand. Instead He used code words such as "shortly" to not mean what it normally means but actually just the opposite.

But that is not the only place.
What about here:

[FONT=&quot]--Note that the words in Deuteronomy 4 were spoken by Moses. The Exodus (led by Moses), took place in 1440 B.C. Soon after that Judah went into captivity in 586 B.C., or about 800 years later. Now there is a definition of “soon.”

Is 800 years "soon" to you?
There are dozens of such Scriptures.
[/FONT]

 

[HisWitness]

[FONT=&quot]Romans 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Shall bruise (suntripsei). Future active of suntribô, old verb, to rub together, to crush, to trample underfoot. Blessed promise of final victory over Satan by "the God of peace." "Shortly" (en tachei). As God counts time. Meanwhile patient loyalty from us. (A.T. Robertson)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Must shortly come to pass (dei genesthai en tachei). Second aorist middle infinitive of ginomai with dei. See this same adjunct (en tachei) in Lu 18:8; Ro 16:20; Re 22:6. It is a relative term to be judged in the light of 2Pe 3:8 according to God's clock, not ours. And yet undoubtedly the hopes of the early Christians looked for a speedy return of the Lord Jesus. (Robertson)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Deuteronomy 4:26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]--that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto you go over Jordan to possess it; though they were now about to go over Jordan and inherit the land of Canaan, yet they would not enjoy it long, but be taken and carried captive out of it; as the ten tribes were by Shalmaneser king of Assyria, and the two tribes by Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, and both for their idolatry and other crimes. (Gill)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]--Note that the words in Deuteronomy 4 were spoken by Moses. The Exodus (led by Moses), took place in 1440 B.C. Soon after that Judah went into captivity in 586 B.C., or about 800 years later. Now there is a definition of “soon.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Jesus said he will come quickly. Paul defined quickly as “in the twinkling of an eye,” which is much faster than blinking an eye. That is quick. But he didn’t put a time frame on it. He simply said it would be quick. Three times Jesus said “I come quickly.” [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]There are dozens of other examples in the Bible as to the meanings of these words. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I work with the elderly. They come near to the end of their days after ninety or so years and tell us “how quickly” those years have gone by, “what a short time it has been,” and various other expressions. It all depends on the context, and from whose vantage point you are looking from doesn’t it? From God’s vantage point “soon” may be a very long time. [/FONT]

if you want to have that view that is your right--but sorry i think shortly and soon doesnt mean thousands of years

 

[HisWitness]

[FONT=&quot]Romans 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Shall bruise (suntripsei). Future active of suntribô, old verb, to rub together, to crush, to trample underfoot. Blessed promise of final victory over Satan by "the God of peace." "Shortly" (en tachei). As God counts time. Meanwhile patient loyalty from us. (A.T. Robertson)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Must shortly come to pass (dei genesthai en tachei). Second aorist middle infinitive of ginomai with dei. See this same adjunct (en tachei) in Lu 18:8; Ro 16:20; Re 22:6. It is a relative term to be judged in the light of 2Pe 3:8 according to God's clock, not ours. And yet undoubtedly the hopes of the early Christians looked for a speedy return of the Lord Jesus. (Robertson)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Deuteronomy 4:26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]--that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto you go over Jordan to possess it; though they were now about to go over Jordan and inherit the land of Canaan, yet they would not enjoy it long, but be taken and carried captive out of it; as the ten tribes were by Shalmaneser king of Assyria, and the two tribes by Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, and both for their idolatry and other crimes. (Gill)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]--Note that the words in Deuteronomy 4 were spoken by Moses. The Exodus (led by Moses), took place in 1440 B.C. Soon after that Judah went into captivity in 586 B.C., or about 800 years later. Now there is a definition of “soon.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Jesus said he will come quickly. Paul defined quickly as “in the twinkling of an eye,” which is much faster than blinking an eye. That is quick. But he didn’t put a time frame on it. He simply said it would be quick. Three times Jesus said “I come quickly.” [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]There are dozens of other examples in the Bible as to the meanings of these words. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I work with the elderly. They come near to the end of their days after ninety or so years and tell us “how quickly” those years have gone by, “what a short time it has been,” and various other expressions. It all depends on the context, and from whose vantage point you are looking from doesn’t it? From God’s vantage point “soon” may be a very long time. [/FONT]

its funny how you use old testament for an example--when i gave scriptures from there to prove ever and everlasting wasnt eternal just the same way as you have done here but you reject mine and you expect me to accept yours ?

 

[HisWitness]

But that is not the only place.
What about here:

[FONT=&quot]--Note that the words in Deuteronomy 4 were spoken by Moses. The Exodus (led by Moses), took place in 1440 B.C. Soon after that Judah went into captivity in 586 B.C., or about 800 years later. Now there is a definition of “soon.”

Is 800 years "soon" to you?
There are dozens of such Scriptures.
[/FONT]

Matthew 24 contains all the things that the disciples of that day was going to witness--as jesus told them they would--you can deny it if you want --but doesnt change the fact that jesus said YE in all those scriptures which was talking straight forward to the disciples of his day--and THAT generation would not pass till ALL those things were fulfilled--now its your turn to Murder them scriptures

 

[DHK]

its funny how you use old testament for an example--when i gave scriptures from there to prove ever and everlasting wasnt eternal just the same way as you have done here but you reject mine and you expect me to accept yours ?

Note, that I don't allegorize Scripture as you do. I use facts. They are irrefutable. Look at the post again.
[FONT=&quot]

Deuteronomy 4:26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]--that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto you go over Jordan to possess it; though they were now about to go over Jordan and inherit the land of Canaan, yet they would not enjoy it long, but be taken and carried captive out of it; as the ten tribes were by Shalmaneser king of Assyria, and the two tribes by Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, and both for their idolatry and other crimes. (Gill)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]--Note that the words in Deuteronomy 4 were spoken by Moses. The Exodus (led by Moses), took place in 1440 B.C. Soon after that Judah went into captivity in 586 B.C., or about 800 years later. Now there is a definition of “soon.”

1. Moses was writing, and it was Moses that wrote the word "soon."
2. Moses led the nation of Israel out of Egypt in 1440 B.C. Less than 40 years after that he died.
3. What Moses was that they would "SOON" perish....
4. The "soon referred to going into captivity which they did in 586 B.C. as the Northern Kingdom did in 722 B.C. Some 800 years after Moses' writing the "soon ye shall utterly perish" came to pass.
Those are the facts. That is what "soon" refers to here.
[/FONT]

 

[DHK]

Matthew 24 contains all the things that the disciples of that day was going to witness--as jesus told them they would--you can deny it if you want --but doesnt change the fact that jesus said YE in all those scriptures which was talking straight forward to the disciples of his day--and THAT generation would not pass till ALL those things were fulfilled--now its your turn to Murder them scriptures

Any objective reader of the Scriptures can obviously see that all those things did not come to pass,

 

[HisWitness]

Any objective reader of the Scriptures can obviously see that all those things did not come to pass,

how so ? Jesus said ALL THOSE THINGS would come to pass before that generation passed away ?? AD 70 fit the bill perfectly before that generation passed away--just because you dont know all the history of that time doesnt mean its not there I think if jesus said they would see it then it happened in their lifetimes or your calling Jesus a liar

 

[DHK]

how so ? Jesus said ALL THOSE THINGS would come to pass before that generation passed away ?? AD 70 fit the bill perfectly before that generation passed away--just because you dont know all the history of that time doesnt mean its not there I think if jesus said they would see it then it happened in their lifetimes or your calling Jesus a liar

Did he? Quote the verse.
70 A.D.? Who says that is a generation? John lived into the second century. I suppose that would prove your prophesy false right there, wouldn't it?

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

And where is the documented evidence that this happened?

 

[HisWitness]

Did he? Quote the verse.
70 A.D.? Who says that is a generation? John lived into the second century. I suppose that would prove your prophesy false right there, wouldn't it?

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

And where is the documented evidence that this happened?

ok - translate it however you wish