Hell

[Bronconagurski]

Well, I posted this link which no one has commented on:

http://www.seekfind.net/Bible_Dictionary__Define_aion__Definition_of_aion.html

It is worthy of comment.

I don't care what one man thinks. I look at how the word was translated by a group of the best translators of their day.

Let me ask you the same question that I asked Hiswitness: Will the people cast into the lake of fire in Revelation 20 be there eternally? That is what we are talking about, and what hiswitness denies in his obtuse manner. What say you?

 

[HisWitness]

So the man that can not give us a definition hell is now a textual critic? So answer me, if the KJV is not the word of God, then where is the word of God?

you have no earthly idea friend--all you do is keep adding words that i didnt say--i NEVER said the KJV wasnt the word of God--i said the UN-INSPIRED translaters made some mistakes in some of their translations.

 

[Bronconagurski]

you have no earthly idea friend--all you do is keep adding words that i didnt say--i NEVER said the KJV wasnt the word of God--i said the UN-INSPIRED translaters made some mistakes in some of their translations.

Then you are saying that God did not preserve His word for all those years that no other English versions were being used? Like the Jehovah Witnesses, the bible translators had to be wrong if the scripture doesn't agree with your pet false doctrines. You do not fool me, pal, with all your obfuscation. Your only goal here is to spread your lies that spawn from the father of lies and attack what God has said.

Let's see what other translations say:

Revelation 20:10 (GenevaBible)
10 And the devil that deceived them, was cast into a lake of fire and brimstone, where that beast and that false prophet are, and shall be tormented even day and night for evermore.
Revelation 20:10 (NET1)
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet are too, and they will be tormented there day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:10 (ESV)
10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Lets now look at another verse that proves the lost will be punished in hell forever:

Matthew 25:46 (KJV)
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Matthew 25:46 (ESV)
46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Matthew 25:46 (NASB)
46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Did all the above translators get it wrong also? If you think so, then why don't you tell me how the verses should read. Go ahead, if you dare oppose God and change His Holy Word.

 

[HisWitness]

Then you are saying that God did not preserve His word for all those years that no other English versions were being used? Like the Jehovah Witnesses, the bible translators had to be wrong if the scripture doesn't agree with your pet false doctrines. You do not fool me, pal, with all your obfuscation. Your only goal here is to spread your lies that spawn from the father of lies and attack what God has said.

Let's see what other translations say:

Revelation 20:10 (GenevaBible)
10 And the devil that deceived them, was cast into a lake of fire and brimstone, where that beast and that false prophet are, and shall be tormented even day and night for evermore.
Revelation 20:10 (NET1)
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet are too, and they will be tormented there day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:10 (ESV)
10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Lets now look at another verse that proves the lost will be punished in hell forever:

Matthew 25:46 (KJV)
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Matthew 25:46 (ESV)
46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Matthew 25:46 (NASB)
46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Did all the above translators get it wrong also? If you think so, then why don't you tell me how the verses should read. Go ahead, if you dare oppose God and change His Holy Word.

Lol your a funny guy--you think by taking 3-4 translations that all say the same thing-that is what some things are meant to say?

There are alot more translations that are out there that would beg to differ with you--but you choose not to use them because you might be proven wrong

 

[Thomas Helwys]

You are not posting what the word and all of it meanings you are only posting people and definitions that agree with yours. It is called trying to win people to incomplete meaning of the word. If it is your meaning then eternal life is only an age of life nothing bias about it. What you say about me can be said about you.

The article I posted is an objective one. Did you not take the time to read all of it, all the way to the end, as I stated? Apparently not.

 

[HisWitness]

So the man that can not give us a definition hell is now a textual critic? So answer me, if the KJV is not the word of God, then where is the word of God?

(The word "Hell" comes from the Teutonic "Hele" goddess of the underworld "Hell" of northern Europe. The description of this ancient mythological place has very little resemblance anymore to the modern Christian image of Hell. See any Encyclopedia or dictionary for the origin of the word.) Seeing that the Bible is supposed to be "Holy," why have pagan religious words been added to our modern English Bibles? Please understand, the English word "Hell" and its concepts are NOT in the Hebrew nor Greek. They come into the English through Northern European mythologies, NOT from the roots of Christianity

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Here is part of an objective article on the word 'aion'. Notice the difference between Young's Literal Translation and the others. Why do you suppose that is?

"Eternity or age

The Bible translation is a treatment of the Hebrew word olam and the Greek word aion. Both these words have similar meaning, and Young's Literal Translation renders them and their derivatives as “age” or “age-during”. Other English versions most often translate them to indicate eternity, being translated as eternal, everlasting, forever, etc. However, there are notable exceptions to this in all major translations, such as Matthew 28:20: “…I am with you always, to the end of the age” (NRSV), the word “age” being a translation of aion. Rendering aion to indicate eternality in this verse would result in the contradictory phrase “end of eternity”, so the question arises whether it should ever be so. Proponents of Universal Reconciliation point out that this has significant implications for the problem of hell. Contrast Matthew 25:46 in well-known English translations with its rendering in Young's Literal Translation:

And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during. (YLT)

Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life. (NIV)

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. (NASB)

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. (KJV)

And these will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life. (NWT)"

 

[Thomas Helwys]

I don't care what one man thinks. I look at how the word was translated by a group of the best translators of their day.

Let me ask you the same question that I asked Hiswitness: Will the people cast into the lake of fire in Revelation 20 be there eternally? That is what we are talking about, and what hiswitness denies in his obtuse manner. What say you?

I say what I have said previously: I am not a universalist. Is that not good enough for you? Considering the accusatory tone of your posts, I don't feel I owe you further explanation.

 

[Bronconagurski]

Lol your a funny guy--you think by taking 3-4 translations that all say the same thing-that is what some things are meant to say?

There are alot more translations that are out there that would beg to differ with you--but you choose not to use them because you might be proven wrong

Ok, then copy and paste what they say and tell what translations they are from. I can't find any in my bible software. It's one thing to assert something, but show me some proof.

 

[Bronconagurski]

I say what I have said previously: I am not a universalist. Is that not good enough for you? Considering the accusatory tone of your posts, I don't feel I owe you further explanation.

No, you do not owe me anything, but it's a simple question. Why do you avoid it? Will the people cast into the lake of fire be there forever? I already said I thought you believed in eternal punishment. The reason being you said you were a conservative Baptist. However, maybe I was wrong since you won't answer the question. What happened to the exchange of ideas. Are you ashamed of what you believe, or afraid some here won't like it?

 

[Thomas Helwys]

No, you do not owe me anything, but it's a simple question. Why do you avoid it? Will the people cast into the lake of fire be there forever? I already said I thought you believed in eternal punishment. The reason being you said you were a conservative Baptist. However, maybe I was wrong since you won't answer the question. What happened to the exchange of ideas. Are you ashamed of what you believe, or afraid some here won't like it?

Considering your reactions, I got the impression that it was you who was uncomfortable with the exchange of ideas.

 

[HisWitness]

Here is part of an objective article on the word 'aion'. Notice the difference between Young's Literal Translation and the others. Why do you suppose that is?

"Eternity or age

The Bible translation is a treatment of the Hebrew word olam and the Greek word aion. Both these words have similar meaning, and Young's Literal Translation renders them and their derivatives as “age” or “age-during”. Other English versions most often translate them to indicate eternity, being translated as eternal, everlasting, forever, etc. However, there are notable exceptions to this in all major translations, such as Matthew 28:20: “…I am with you always, to the end of the age” (NRSV), the word “age” being a translation of aion. Rendering aion to indicate eternality in this verse would result in the contradictory phrase “end of eternity”, so the question arises whether it should ever be so. Proponents of Universal Reconciliation point out that this has significant implications for the problem of hell. Contrast Matthew 25:46 in well-known English translations with its rendering in Young's Literal Translation:

And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during. (YLT)

Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life. (NIV)

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. (NASB)

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. (KJV)

And these will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life. (NWT)"

Good post--there are alot more examples just like that one that doesnt make any sense to be translated eternal or eternity :thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Thomas Helwys]

I have found very few people who are able to be objective in religious matters. For some strange reason, I have always been able to, even if I find something that contradicts my personal beliefs. I think that's because I have a passionate love of truth and want to find it, whatever it is.

Of course, none of us will ever find the complete truth, except in the person of Jesus Christ.

Thomas Helwys and the first English Baptists had that desire to find the truth, and they were willing to be persecuted and die for their beliefs and for religious freedom. He is one of my heroes.

 

[Bronconagurski]

Here is part of an objective article on the word 'aion'. Notice the difference between Young's Literal Translation and the others. Why do you suppose that is?

"Eternity or age

The Bible translation is a treatment of the Hebrew word olam and the Greek word aion. Both these words have similar meaning, and Young's Literal Translation renders them and their derivatives as “age” or “age-during”. Other English versions most often translate them to indicate eternity, being translated as eternal, everlasting, forever, etc. However, there are notable exceptions to this in all major translations, such as Matthew 28:20: “…I am with you always, to the end of the age” (NRSV), the word “age” being a translation of aion. Rendering aion to indicate eternality in this verse would result in the contradictory phrase “end of eternity”, so the question arises whether it should ever be so. Proponents of Universal Reconciliation point out that this has significant implications for the problem of hell. Contrast Matthew 25:46 in well-known English translations with its rendering in Young's Literal Translation:

And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during. (YLT)

Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life. (NIV)

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. (NASB)

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. (KJV)

And these will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life. (NWT)"

And what does Young's translation mean to you? If you say it means that the punishment isn't eternal, then do you not have to say that that the saved don't have eternal life either? Because he uses the same terminology for eternal punishment and eternal life. So you believe eternal life is temporary?

Young used the same terminology for eternal life in John 3: 16. It seems to me that he means eternal here. If not, then he doesn't believe the soul will live forever. Do you believe eternal life is only temporary?

 

[Thomas Helwys]

And what does Young's translation mean to you? If you say it means that the punishment isn't eternal, then do you not have to say that that the saved don't have eternal life either? Because he uses the same terminology for eternal punishment and eternal life. So you believe eternal life is temporary?

Young used the same terminology for eternal life in John 3: 16. It seems to me that he means eternal here. If not, then he doesn't believe the soul will live forever. Do you believe eternal life is only temporary?

What does Young's translation mean to me? It is more literal than the others and thus closer to the original meaning and intent of the word. I think this should be taken into account when studying the use of the word throughout scripture. Do you not think this?

What do you think of this part of the article: "Other English versions most often translate them to indicate eternity, being translated as eternal, everlasting, forever, etc. However, there are notable exceptions to this in all major translations, such as Matthew 28:20: “…I am with you always, to the end of the age” (NRSV), the word “age” being a translation of aion. Rendering aion to indicate eternality in this verse would result in the contradictory phrase “end of eternity”

 

[HisWitness]

I have found very few people who are able to be objective in religious matters. For some strange reason, I have always been able to, even if I find something that contradicts my personal beliefs. I think that's because I have a passionate love of truth and want to find it, whatever it is.

Of course, none of us will ever find the complete truth, except in the person of Jesus Christ.

Thomas Helwys and the first English Baptists had that desire to find the truth, and they were willing to be persecuted and die for their beliefs and for religious freedom. He is one of my heroes.

could not have said it better myself

TRUTH sets you FREE from the chains of tradition--

and gives Liberty and Peace

BUT also brings much persecution from the BRETHREN who still are chained by the traditions

 

[Bronconagurski]

What does Young's translation mean to me? It is more literal than the others and thus closer to the original meaning and intent of the word. I think this should be taken into account when studying the use of the word throughout scripture. Do you not think this?

First, I believe the NASB to be the most literal translation, not Youngs. You have one translation that you think proves your point, while I have 100 that say otherwise. Points of view come from our presuppositions to a certain extent, and I get the feeling you don't trust the bible very much unless Young says it.

Second, the translation is awkward. To me the it means to the duration of the age, which happens to be eternity. That means it is perpetual, no stopping place.

Lastly, why can't you just explain what you think he means? I just did it for you, yet you obfuscate in my opinion.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

First, I believe the NASB to be the most literal translation, not Youngs. You have one translation that you think proves your point, while I have 100 that say otherwise. Points of view come from our presuppositions to a certain extent, and I get the feeling you don't trust the bible very much unless Young says it.

Second, the translation is awkward. To me the it means to the duration of the age, which happens to be eternity. That means it is perpetual, no stopping place.

Lastly, why can't you just explain what you think he means? I just did it for you, yet you obfuscate in my opinion.

I don't have a point that I'm trying to prove. I am simply presenting different evidence.

Actually, I am not overly familiar with Young's translation. I don't have a copy of it. My favorite translations are the NASB and the NKJV.

Are you talking about what Young means? If so, it appears that he means that an age is not an eternity.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

To all here: When responding to me, you might want to wait a few minutes after I post because I find that I frequently have to edit them. I use the hunt-and-peck method of typing, so I make many errors.

 

[Bronconagurski]

I don't have a point that I'm trying to prove. I am simply presenting different evidence.

Actually, I am not overly familiar with Young's translation. I don't have a copy of it. My favorite translations are the NASB and the NKJV.

Are you talking about what Young means? If so, it appears that he means that an age is not an eternity.

I disagree. So, back to my question. Do you believe in eternal life of the Christian?