the Confession that you have cited MUCH more in line with the biblical concept of Sin of Adam and us, for the SBC would seem to have us not reckon as sinners until we make theconsciouschoice to sin, so we would be innocent before God before then!
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
is it Heresy to deny doctrine of original/Imputed Sin?
- Thread starter Yeshua1
- Start date
the Confession that you have cited MUCH more in line with the biblical concept of Sin of Adam and us, for the SBC would seem to have us not reckon as sinners until we make theconsciouschoice to sin, so we would be innocent before God before then!
HisWitness
New Member
I do recal Jesus telling some folks that they were gonna die in their sins--but could you give the scripture of folks being dead in sin ?
[2:1]*And you were dead in the trespasses and sins [2]*in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—
(Ephesians 2:1-2 ESV)
[13]*And you, who were dead in your trespasses* and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,
(Colossians 2:13 ESV)
[4]*But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, [5]*even when we were dead in our trespasses*, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
(Ephesians 2:4-5 ESV)
*trespasses and sin are synonymous with each other.
HisWitness
New Member
So to you what does it mean to be dead in sins ?
As I explained previously to convicted1, the English word "dead" is the koine Greek word "nekros." Nekros means, "one that has breathed his last. Lifeless. Deceased. Departed." It describes a dead body. A corpse. A sinner is spiritually dead. The sinner still has a nature, but that nature is in bondage to sin. Sin is synonymous with death and darkness. The spiritually dead nature is incapable of any righteous act. It is incapable of belief - faith. Paul writes:
[14]*The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
(1 Corinthians 2:14 ESV)
The natural person in 1 Cor. 2:14 is the same person who is spiritually dead. This person not only does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, he is incapable of doing so, because those things are spiritually discerned. That is what it means to be spiritually dead.
Whatever spirtually dead means, it cannot mean that a person is unable to hear the gospel and believe, because Jesus himself said "the dead" would hear his voice, and those that hear shall live.
John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
When you claim that the spiritually dead cannot hear Jesus Christ, you are likewise saying that Jesus does not have power to speak to the dead. If Jesus can speak to the dead, then the dead can hear. And Jesus said the dead that hear, that is, the ones who actively listen and believe his words shall live.
Jesus did not say the living shall hear his voice and live, he said THE DEAD.
You are incorrect.
Ephesians 2:4, 5 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
The spiritually dead person remains spiritually dead unless, and until, the Holy Spirit performs the work of regeneration. I have yet to read one single post from anyone - ANYONE - who is willing to offer a sound exegesis of Ephesians 2:1-5 and Colossians 2:13. You may disagree with me, but I exegeted the text and explained it. All the responses I have received seek to explain why my interpretation cannot be right, but no one is offering another conclusion based on their exegesis of the text. Why is that?
The very verse you use refutes your position. You fail to leave off we are quickened WITH Christ, not prior or after...with. The moment of faith.
webdog, that quickening is regeneration, which precedes faith in the ordo salutis. I know that you and I disagree on that point, but I believe the text explains the necessity of it. Man is incapable of belief apart from God granting that ability.
All words have more than one meaning. The Bible does not use this meaning for the word "dead." The word "dead" in the Bible means "separated." The sooner you see that, the sooner you will understand the various usages of the word "dead." Only the context in which the word "dead" is used can give you the actual meaning--which is usually true with all words.
1. Physical death:
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead,
--When the spirit separates from the body that is death. We don't pray to the dead. We don't pray to Mary and the "saints." They are dead. We don't go into the cemeteries and pray to those that are there. They are dead. Their spirits are separated from their bodies and are either in heaven or hell.
2. Spiritual death:
Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
--The spirit of man is always "alive" but not always "responsive." In its unsaved state it is separated from God by sin, and it needs to be reconciled to God. Death is not lifelessness. It is not as a corpse. That is false teaching. If it were true, then you wouldn't be alive. God breathed into you the breath of life (your spirit). That act completed Adam and Eve as "persons."
2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
The work of Christ--reconciling the world to himself.
The command of Christ--Be reconciled to God.
Why? We are separated from God by sin. Death is separation. They were separated from God. The Holy Spirit reconciled them to God. That is where the life came from. Death is separation.
3. Eternal death:
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Eternal life, spoken of in the second half of this verse is compared to death in the first half of the verse, and therefore--eternal death, or separation for all eternity. This death is separation from God for all eternity in a place called hell or eventually the Lake of Fire. Those who reject God will eternally die and be separated from God eternally. Death is separation.
4. The Second Death.
This is the final sentence on all the unsaved. It is in Rev.20:11-15.
Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
--Separation from God for all eternity. It is plain that death is separation from God.
A person is saved by faith. That is the only way that one can be saved. Your statement is false primarily because your definitions are false. Your entire premise to start with is false. False premises lead to false conclusions.
The verse is speaking of one who tries on his own to understand spiritual things. An example is the Ethiopian Eunuch. He was reading the Book of Isaiah. When Philip asked if he understood what he was reading, he replied: "How can I except some man show me"?
Then Philip began at the same place and preached unto him Jesus.
Note that the eunuch was still unsaved, but he could understand Philip.
Why could he understand Philip if he was dead and spiritually discerned?
Why would one man make a difference?
Does going to church make a difference? Listening to the preacher?
He could understand, while he was yet dead. Dead does not mean lifelessness as you assert.
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. As he heard the Word of God explained to him by Philip he came to understand it. After he understood it his spirit was able to respond in faith, his faith. By faith he trusted Christ. What did Philip say?
If THOU believest thou mayest.
The eunuch said: "I BELIEVE that Christ is the Son of God."
It wasn't God's faith; it was his own.
I'm sorry, but the only linear explanation using that text is simultaneous (with Christ).
You can read, does John 5:25 say the living shall hear Jesus, and those that hear shall live? NO, it says THE DEAD.
Do you think Jesus does not understand doctrine properly? Do you think Jesus would make a mistake and say the dead shall hear his voice when he meant to say the living?
Your problem is that you do not believe what the scriptures say. You can cling to your Reformed view, but Jesus said THE DEAD shall hear his voice, and those that hear shall live.
DHK, with all due respect you are incorrect. Three respected resources, The Complete Word Study Dictionary: New Testament , the Louw-Nida Greek English Lexicon, and the Friberg Lexicon clearly define nekros as speaking of a dead person or corpse. In relation to the immaterial part of man (the soul, or nature), "...one may translate ‘we who were unable to respond to matters relating to God because of our sins …’ or ‘we who were spiritually dead …’"
Please, do not take my word for it:
DHK said:
Exactly. Since nekros is a very specific word (referring to physical death), its uses are also very specific. Every time it is used it is referring to physical death, or spiritual death described in physical terms. The latter is done for effect, in order to provide a point of reference.
And I courteously disagree.
Matt. 1:21 "She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins"
Note that Matt. 1:21 does not say Jesus will save his people from their sinful condition, but it says Jesus will save his people from their sins. I agree with the SBC BF&M.
Note that Matt. 1:21 does not say Jesus will save his people from their sinful condition, but it says Jesus will save his people from their sins. I agree with the SBC BF&M.
in conte/t 'His people' in that verse is referring to Israel.
convicted1
Guest
Bingo!!! :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
He came to His own(Israel), and His own(again, Israel) believed Him not. But as many as did believe(both Jew and Gentile here), gave He them(again, both Jew and Gentile) power to become the sons(again, Jews and Gentiles) of God. Even those(again, both Jew and Gentile), who believe in His name.
convicted1
Guest
Again Brother Herald, corpse is a poor example of someone spiritually dead. A corpse just lays there, and does nothing. Yet, you say that a corpse can go out, hit the bars, get blitzed, sleep around, etc.....but then in regards to doing good, it can do nothing.
FWIW, sin is something. It's breaking the commandment(s) of God. Now, I agree that none of us has a desire to come to God, left to our own devices, and that the unctioning of/by the Spirit is an absolute necessary, but we are still dead in our sins until we eat of Jesus' flesh and drink of His blood, and then we are made alive in Him. We are not made alive, then able to eat and drink of Jesus. If that were the case, then there's spiritual life outside of Jesus Christ.
Bronconagurski
New Member
So you are saying that until we take the Lord's supper, we aren't saved? That's a new Baptist doctrine on me, if I am understanding you right.
Paul tells us specifically that we receive the Spirit when we believe:
Galatians 3:1-3 (KJV)
1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
And again in Ephesians; Ephesians 1:13-14 (KJV)
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Ephesians 2:4-5 (KJV)
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
1 Corinthians 12:13-14 (KJV)
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14 For the body is not one member, but many.
When we have saving faith, we are immediately quickened, or made alive, and indwelt by the Holy Spirt, who seals us. We are also baptized by the Spirit into the body of Christ. Communion is an ordinance, just like water baptism, and has nothing to do with our salvation, but it was instituted by Christ that we may remember what He did for us till He comes again.
Well, though not a calvinist, might I ask why does that in and of itself defeat their view of unconditional election?
"Those that hear" - a calvinist might ask how is it that not all hear?
Possible answer: Only those who were predisposed (in particular) to hear will hear at the appropriate time when (though they be dead) God opens their ears.
But I agree winman, the way the calvinist doctrinal view of being "dead in trespasses and sins" is presented as a dead man in a coffin is problematic.
An example is Cain who, after he murdered his brother, not only heard God but prayed and his prayer was answered.
Genesis 4
13 And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear.
14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.
15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.
14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.
15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.
HankD