Featured Original sin (pre-Augustine)

We can choose to obey God but the desire of the flesh will get us every time.

And I would venture to say in the concept of to covet that desire will get us within our first three days of inhaling and exhaling.

I guess you could argue that until we can read to covet doesn't exist however because of Adam we will die anyway and need to be saved from that death.

Not physical, not spiritual just death, The wages of sin paid to all in Adam.

 

Unsaved people are not enslaved to sin, even an unsaved person will often return a lost wallet when they could have kept it.

If man were truly enslaved to sin, he would always be compelled to do the very worst thing possible. It is clear to all (even Calvinists) that men do not always do the worst thing possible.

Jesus himself said "sinners" can do good.

Luk 6:33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.

Jesus said sinners can do good, and this is exactly what the early church fathers before Augustine believed.

 

Calvin himself admitted the early church fathers, and especially the Greek fathers believed in free will.

Even Calvin admitted that nearly all of the ECF without exception believed men could freely choose to do good.

 

But Calvin still believed in the depravity of man. You have just defeated your own argument. If Calvin admitted the early church fathers believed in free will, as well as the depravity of man then you have no other place to go.

The question is not, and never has been as you continue to put it:
Did the ECF or early believers believe in OS (or the depravity of man, before Augustine?
You have changed the OP. You have made it this way: Did they believe in the depravity of man as Augustine did?
No one asked that question, but you keep putting it that way.

I am not a Calvinist. But I do believe in the depravity of man.
Most Calvinists that I know here do not believe in the "depravity of man" but rather "the total inability of man." There is a difference.

The difference is shown in Calvin's writings if what you posted is true. One can believe in the depravity of man and the free will of man at the same time. And that is what I believe. Man is born with a sin nature. But when it comes to the Gospel, God in his sovereignty gives man freely the choice to reject or receive Christ as his Savior. It is up to man to make that choice, not God. That doesn't take away from his depravity which he is born with.

 

As if almost everyone around here does not do the same exact thing. EWF, no I take that back EVERYONE does this.,

 

Could not the EXACT same things be said of us who followed in time much later, we are imperfect men, we "get it wrong", we dance around incorrect interpretations. Lets just all admit this huh?

 

If anyone wants to know how the early Greek fathers differed from the views of the Western church, just read about the Eastern Orthodox Church. Its views of sin as well as other doctrines such as the atonement are very different from the churches in the West.

Here is part of an article that will be helpful in seeing this difference:

"Sin, salvation and the incarnation

At some point in the beginnings of human existence man was faced with a choice: to learn the difference between good and evil through observation or through participation. The biblical story of Adam and Eve represents this choice by mankind to participate in evil. This event is commonly referred to as the "fall of man" and it represents a fundamental change in human nature. When Orthodox Christians refer to Fallen Nature they believe that human nature is open to acts of evil, and not that the humaneness joins with evil. They reject the Augustinian position that the descendants of Adam and Eve are actually guilty of their sin. As a result of this sin, mankind was doomed to be separated from God. This was mankind's ultimate dilemma. The solution to this problem was for God to effect another change in human nature. Orthodox Christians believe that Christ Jesus was both God and Man absolutely. He was born, lived, died, and rose again by the power of the Holy Spirit. Through God's participation in humanity, human nature is changed thus saving us from the fate of Hell (Orthodox reject the idea that Christ died to give God "satisfaction", as taught by Anselm, or as a punitive substitute as taught by the Reformers). The effective change included all those who had died from the beginning of time – saving everyone including Adam and Eve. This process, to Orthodox Christians, is what is meant by "salvation". The ultimate goal is theosis – an even closer union with God and closer likeness to God than existed in the Garden of Eden. This very process is called Deification or "God became man that man might become 'god'". However, it must be emphasized that Orthodox Christians do not believe that man literally becomes God in His essence, or a god. More accurately, Christ's salvific work enables man to become "partakers of the Divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4); that is to say, man is united to God in Christ."

 

Really Dave?!? I hadn't noticed....some must make a practice of it though :smilewinkgrin:

 

Thomas, I am currently reading "The History of Christianity" by David Bentley Hart (An Eastern Orthodox theologian). I was very interested in one part where he clearly remarks that Augustine got Romans 5:12 completely wrong due to the Latin text that he used.

Tell me what you think about the following analysis of Original Sin.

http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/openhse/original.html

 

You are some confused person. Calvin claimed the will was enslaved DESPITE the teachings of the early church fathers. He could find no support for this bondage of the willl before Augustine.

Well, that is the question here.

Herald's statement is not really true. The early church fathers did believe in a type of physical depravity that caused man to be more prone to sin, but the VAST MAJORITY did not believe Adam's sin was imputed to us, they did not believe a person was born a sinner, and they believed men had the ability to do good. That is historical fact whether you like it or not.

It was Herald who tried to use Irenaeus's quote in the OP to imply we inherited Adam's sin, when Irenaeus did not believe that. Irenaeus is speaking of a physical depravity, not a moral depravity. Irenaeus clearly taught that man retained free will and could choose to do good. He would have been called a Pelagian or semi-Pelagian by Calvinists today.

You are far closer to being a Calvinist than you are even aware of. You believe babies are born sinners like Augustine, but when they die you make up some non-scriptural excuse for God not to send them to hell. Augustine taught if they were baptized they would be saved, but without baptism they went straight to hell. You are semi-Augustinian. Calvin was an Augustinian.

You believe all men MUST sin, that they are absolutely compelled to sin by their nature. This is nothing but a big EXCUSE for sin. The early church fathers before Augustine did not believe as you do whatsoever.

All men sin, if that is what you mean by depravity, but all men are able to choose to obey God, or not to obey God, just as Adam and Eve did in the garden. No person is absolutely compelled to sin. The early church fathers believed very similar to what I believe, they did not believe as you and the Calvinists whatsoever.

 

I think he has nailed it! It is a wonderful and theologically accurate article. I especially appreciate his analysis of physical and spiritual death.

What he said about Augustine getting Romans 5:12 completely wrong due to the Latin text that he used is absolutely correct. The harm done by Augustine and those he influenced, which was the entire Western church, is inestimable, harm done to the view of man and to the character of God.

Thanks for posting this article. I wish everyone would read it.

 

It is interesting to see the opposition you get here. It is illustrative of the stranglehold that Augustine's beliefs have on all of Western Christianity, many of whom who do not even realize it.

 

Yep, just about everyone here is a Roman Catholic, and they don't even know it. :thumbsup:


Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

They don't know what this verse is saying either.

 

But Augustine's teachings influenced the Magisterial Reformers, too, and even many Baptists.

My goal is to get as far away from Augustine's influence as possible, so that might suggest the Eastern Orthodox Church, but I am too Baptist, and they are too steeped in error, not as deeply steeped as the RCC but steeped nonetheless.

It is refreshing and surprising to find a Baptist who believes as you do. Would you mind telling me which Baptist denomination you're a member of? If you'd rather, you can PM me.

 

Exactly, that is why she is called THE MOTHER of harlots. And she has many daughters who follow in her footsteps.

I go to an IFB church. Believe me, I have raised some eyebrows there. But when I showed them from scripture what I believe they admitted I presented a very compelling and convincing case. Our church's statement of faith is worded in such a way as to allow that persons become sinners after birth by personal sin.

 

Thank you. Wow, an IFB church!

At some point, I would like to ask why you hold to the 'P' in the TULIP but not the other petals. I don't see how you can hold that and not the others, but that is a discussion for another place and time.

 

And then again we have this:

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, (NASB: Lockman)

Greek: pantes gar emarton (3PAAI) kai husterountai (3PPPI) tes doxes tou theou
Amplified: Since all have sinned and are falling short of the honor and glory which God bestows and receives. (Amplified Bible - Lockman)
Phillips: everyone has sinned, everyone falls short of the beauty of God's plan.) (Phillips: Touchstone)
Wuest: for all sinned and are falling short of the glory of God; (Eerdmans)
Young's Literal: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
FOR ALL HAVE SINNED: pantes gar emarton (3PAAI): (Ro 3:9,19; 1:28, 29, 30, 31, 32; 2:1-16; 11:32; Eccl 7:20; Gal 3:22; 1Jn 1:8, 9, 10)

For (1063) (gar) is a subordinating conjunction expressing or introducing an explanation. Here Paul provides proof that there is no distinction between Jew or Gentile. The common factor is sin for all men have sinned. As Paul explains later all men contracted the "sin virus" from Adam (Ro 5:12-note) and the "sin virus" causes them to commit acts of sin.

All (3956) (pas) means that there are no exceptions to this declaration.

Sinned (264) (hamartano) means miss the mark, to err, to wander from the path of righteousness then, to do or go wrong then, to violate God's law, to sin.

There are 43 uses of hamartano in the NT - Matt. 18:15, 21; 27:4; Lk. 15:18, 21; 17:3, 4; Jn. 5:14; 8:11; 9:2, 3; Acts 25:8; Ro. 2:12; 3:23; 5:12, 14, 16; 6:15; 1Co. 6:18; 7:28, 36; 8:12; 15:34; Eph. 4:26; 1Ti 5:20; Titus 3:11; He 3:17; 10:26; 1Pe 2:20; 2Pe 2:4; 1Jn 1:10; 2:1; 3:6, 8, 9; 5:16, 18

To sin is to act contrary to the will and law of God. Everybody is born into Adam and thus all sinned for when he sinned, for he acted as the representative for all his descendants. Men are not only sinners by nature, but are also sinners by practice and thus continually fall short (see below), in committing sin themselves. Thus there is a universal need for the gospel, which is thankfully mercifully universally available!

The aorist tense here is referred to as "timeless aorist" which gathers up the whole human race for all time into this condemnation (see also A T Robertson). There are no exceptions save Christ Jesus as Paul has made clear in the preceding indictment in (Ro 1:18-3:20) Godet agrees writing that the aorist tense

'transports us to the point of time when the result of human life appears as a completed fact, the hour of judgment."

MacDonald writes that the aorist tense pictures the fact that...

Everybody sinned in Adam; when he sinned, he acted as the representative for all his descendants. But men are not only sinners by nature; they are also sinners by practice.

Leon Morris writes that...

The aorist pictures this as past, but also as a completion. It certainly does not mean that sin belongs wholly in the past, for Paul goes on to a present tense when he says fall short of the glory of God. Elsewhere in Romans the glory is often future (Ro 2:7, 10; 5:2; 8:18, 21). But there is also a present glory, for God “made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ” (2 Cor. 4:6; cf. 2 Cor. 3:18; John 17:22). But this is something Christ produces in believers. Sinners fall short of it. Not only did all sin in the past, but they continually come short of God’s glory. (Ibid)

Vincent writes that the aorist tense means...

looking back to a thing definitely past — the historic occurrence of sin.

Remember that men and women sin because we are sinners by nature. A plum tree bears plums because it is a plum tree. The fruit is the result of its nature. Sin is the fruit of a sinful heart. “The heart is deceitful above all things” (Jer 17:9).

omans 5:12 Therefore *, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because * all sinned -- (NASB: Lockman)


Greek: Dia touto hosper di' enos anthropou e hamartia eis ton kosmon eiselthen (3SAAI) kai dia tes hamartias o thanatos, kai houtos eis pantas anthropous o thanatos dielthen, (3SAAI) eph o pantes hemarton (3PAAI)
Amplified: Therefore, as sin came into the world through one man, and death as the result of sin, so death spread to all men, [no one being able to stop it or to escape its power] because all men sinned. (Amplified Bible - Lockman)
NLT: When Adam sinned, sin entered the entire human race. Adam’s sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned. (NLT - Tyndale House)
Phillips: This, then, is what happened. Sin made its entry into the world through one man, and through sin, death. The entail of sin and death passed on to the whole human race, and no one could break it for no one was himself free from sin. (Phillips: Touchstone)
Wuest: Wherefore, as through the intermediate agency of one man the aforementioned sin entered the world, and through this sin, death; and thus into and throughout all mankind death entered, because all sinned. (Eerdmans)
Young's Literal: because of this, even as through one man the sin did enter into the world, and through the sin the death; and thus to all men the death did pass through, for that all did sin;