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Yeshua, I do not prove what is right and wrong by other denominations! IF you want to discuss the Word, I will! But you are asking me to prove something by the false!again, by what basis do YOU judge charasmatic activities by? as I said, mormons have tongues and manifestations, so why are they wrong, but yours right?
Again! How many times do you want me to explain my stand on this! I stand with what the Bible says! Not your unbelief that tongues/speaking to God/ giving thanks/pray in an tongue is not prayer...When the Bible is clear that it is!You tell me:
You have a private prayer language which you claim is tongues, and Biblical.
You say it is a language, but you don't know what the language is and cannot translate it. You have no idea what you are saying.
We say you are speaking gibberish.
No doubt you are denying that.
Then you explain to us how what you are speaking is not gibberish and is an actual language that can be understood, especially if you or no one else can understand it.
I judge everything by His Word! I do not know what charasmatic activities you are referring to. If it is the nine listed in 1 Cor. 12 then they are scriptural. If they are some other manifestation not in the Bible... they are not!again, by what basis do YOU judge charasmatic activities by? as I said, mormons have tongues and manifestations, so why are they wrong, but yours right?
You think the Canon is closed right? no ongoing revelations from modern apsotles/prophets?
I judge everything by His Word! I do not know what charasmatic activities you are referring to. If it is the nine listed in 1 Cor. 12 then they are scriptural. If they are some other manifestation not in the Bible... they are not!
Read carefully what I posted to you again:Again! How many times do you want me to explain my stand on this! I stand with what the Bible says! Not your unbelief that tongues/speaking to God/ giving thanks/pray in an tongue is not prayer...When the Bible is clear that it is!
Now I will repeat what I am asking you to do:You tell me:
You have a private prayer language which you claim is tongues, and Biblical.
You say it is a language, but you don't know what the language is and cannot translate it. You have no idea what you are saying.
We say you are speaking gibberish.
No doubt you are denying that.
Then you explain to us how what you are speaking is not gibberish and is an actual language that can be understood, especially if you or no one else can understand it.
THere is no way on this board that I would ever be able to prove that to you! I know I pray in the spirit and the Lord gives me the interpretation! I have never spoke in tongues in the church....but I have heard it done and the interpretation and it is powerful to say the least.Read carefully what I posted to you again:
Now I will repeat what I am asking you to do:
Explain to us that what you are speaking is not gibberish and is an actual language that can be understood, especially if you or no one else can understand it.
Don't just say: "Because it is in the Bible." We don't believe it is. You can't convince us that way. That is the Mormon's answer. Do better than that.
How is what you speak, "gibberish" to us, an actual language as it was in the Bible. How can you justify that belief?
Yes there is. You could prove it if you wanted to.THere is no way on this board that I would ever be able to prove that to you! I know I pray in the spirit and the Lord gives me the interpretation! I have never spoke in tongues in the church....but I have heard it done and the interpretation and it is powerful to say the least.
No you haven't. You take a verse like 1Cor.14:2, a rebuke to the Corinthians, where Paul is telling them to keep quiet because those speaking in tongues have no interpretation and it is just mystery and nonsense, and then you twist it to say that Paul is actually giving you permission to speak in tongues or pray at home. It is some of the worst twisting and destroying of Scripture I have ever seen. This is what the cults do to the Bible. Why do you do it??I have shown in scriptures over and over that speaking to God/ giving thanks/ tongues is praying!
I call it gibberish, and will until you can identify what languages you do and have spoken in. Tell me what you are saying, what the Lord is saying to you and why. Why would he be giving you another language (like Hindi or Cree) to speak in? And why don't you understand what you are saying in said language?You can call it gibberish all you want if that makes you feel above me in anyway! I call it what the Word calls it! Tongues/language/praying in the spirit/ speaking to God/giving thanks!
We have gone over this in other threads...I will not address this again!Yes there is. You could prove it if you wanted to.
First, find someone knowledgeable about languages. Like I said before, I may not know all languages, but I can recognize a language as a language and probably even the language group that it comes from when spoken. Your pastor should be able to do that for you, or a teacher from a Bible college. Languages differ from gibberish and are easily recognizable. They have order and structure to them. Gibberish does not.
How do you know your interpretation is correct. The Corinthians were cursing God (1Cor.12:1-3). You might be doing the same thing. You don't know what you are saying; therefore how do you know that your interpretation is correct.
Not all are called to speak in the assembly! I have never been called to do so! Your intimidating remarks do not work with me DHK!Third, if you do it at home, then why can't you do it a church? Are you afraid of being exposed?
He does not forbid me praying at home whether it is in my own understanding or with the spirit! He contrast the difference in vs. 15-17! He does both! speaks in tongues more than all, he said! But in the church if there is no interpretation he would rather speak so others can understand him! If Paul woul rather not speak with tongues in church, why would you insist that I have too?No you haven't. You take a verse like 1Cor.14:2, a rebuke to the Corinthians, where Paul is telling them to keep quiet because those speaking in tongues have no interpretation and it is just mystery and nonsense, and then you twist it to say that Paul is actually giving you permission to speak in tongues or pray at home. It is some of the worst twisting and destroying of Scripture I have ever seen. This is what the cults do to the Bible. Why do you do it??
Call it what you like!I call it gibberish, and will until you can identify what languages you do and have spoken in. Tell me what you are saying, what the Lord is saying to you and why. Why would he be giving you another language (like Hindi or Cree) to speak in? And why don't you understand what you are saying in said language?
You don't have me convinced that you are speaking through the Spirit of God. (and probably haven't convinced a lot of others either). So where is your proof; your evidence.We have gone over this in other threads...I will not address this again!
I Corinthians 12
1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
MAYBE YOU NEED TO READ THAT AGAIN! It says NO MAN SPEAKING BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD calleth Jesus accursed. It is plain to me that you can not curse God by speaking by the Spirit!
But you cannot speak in a known language can you. You hide the gibberish at home, think it is a language, but don't let anyone else hear you.Not all are called to speak in the assembly! I have never been called to do so! Your intimidating remarks do not work with me DHK!
Paul said he spoke in tongues more because he was an apostle and tongues were the sign of an apostle. It was a gift that was given for him to use specifically. Others were misusing the gift, or, as 1Cor.12:28ff states, didn't have the gift at all. Not every one did.He does not forbid me praying at home whether it is in my own understanding or with the spirit! He contrast the difference in vs. 15-17! He does both! speaks in tongues more than all, he said!
I would rather you demonstrate that you have the gift.But in the church if there is no interpretation he would rather speak so others can understand him! If Paul woul rather not speak with tongues in church, why would you insist that I have too?
Well, I am glad my walk with Jesus does not have to have your stamp of approval on it!You don't have me convinced that you are speaking through the Spirit of God. (and probably haven't convinced a lot of others either). So where is your proof; your evidence.
Vs. 28 says it is ok to keep silent and speak to God! So all of your prayers you pray outloud where everyone can hear you! You do not have a prayer closet (so to speak)?But you cannot speak in a known language can you. You hide the gibberish at home, think it is a language, but don't let anyone else hear you.
He did not say they could not speak in tongue! As a matter of fact he says "forbid not to speak in tongues." Tongues was not just for Paul or just for the apostles! You are grasping at straws again to prove your theory! He still said he spoke more than all ...but not in the church! Period!Paul said he spoke in tongues more because he was an apostle and tongues were the sign of an apostle. It was a gift that was given for him to use specifically. Others were misusing the gift, or, as 1Cor.12:28ff states, didn't have the gift at all. Not every one did.
Well, scriptures disagree with you! Prayer was given to the church! I could name a lot of things that are for the church...but I do not limit it to just the assembly!I would rather you demonstrate that you have the gift.
Those that had the gift would only speak it in the church, as it says in 1Cor.12:28ff. It was a gift given for the local church and not for private use.
Believe as you wish...or stay in your unbelief! Either way...it is between you and God what you believe! I can only share what he gives me to share! The heart to receive is not for me to change!But you don't have the gift. You can't speak in another language like Hindi or Cree. You simply jabber away in nonsense syllables called gibberish, and that is not of God.
My opinion is not worth much; but God's Word ought to mean something to you. God Spirit is not in the speaking of gibberish.Well, I am glad my walk with Jesus does not have to have your stamp of approval on it!
(MKJV) But if there is no interpreter, let him be silent in a church; and let him speak to himself and to God.Vs. 28 says it is ok to keep silent and speak to God! So all of your prayers you pray outloud where everyone can hear you! You do not have a prayer closet (so to speak)?
Forbid not to speak in tongues if you have the actual genuine gift. But very few did (1Cor.12:28-30).He did not say they could not speak in tongue! As a matter of fact he says "forbid not to speak in tongues." Tongues was not just for Paul or just for the apostles! You are grasping at straws again to prove your theory! He still said he spoke more than all ...but not in the church! Period!
The disciples came to Jesus, and asked him: "Lord teach us to pray." And Jesus replied, "Pray in this manner.." and proceeded to teach them what we know as "The Lord's Prayer." That was before there was a church established.Well, scriptures disagree with you! Prayer was given to the church! I could name a lot of things that are for the church...but I do not limit it to just the assembly!
My belief is that you speak gibberish. Can you give me evidence to the contrary?Believe as you wish...or stay in your unbelief! Either way...it is between you and God what you believe! I can only share what he gives me to share! The heart to receive is not for me to change!
God's Word mean a lot to me! And I agree that the Spirit is not into speaking gibberish!My opinion is not worth much; but God's Word ought to mean something to you. God Spirit is not in the speaking of gibberish.
I agree that with no interpreter we are to keep silent in church.(MKJV) But if there is no interpreter, let him be silent in a church; and let him speak to himself and to God.
The meaning here:
1. no interpreter means silence in the church. That is the primary and most important meaning that Paul is teaching here.
What I bolded is what it means...and we can keep to ourselves and pray to God! I do it all the time in my understanding and in tongues!2. Secondly, Also if there is no interpreter, let him speak to himself and to God. The object of the word "speak" is both "himself" and "God." If you adamantly say that speak means pray in this verse then the meaning is that he is praying to himself and praying to God. Praying to oneself is idolatry. We are to pray to God alone. But the word "speak" here is not in the context of prayer, nor is it used in the context of prayer. It is used in the context of keeping silence.
To yourself, and before God quietly and silently speak in the language God has given you. Do not disturb others. That is the meaning. It is not about prayer. There is no teaching here on private prayer or any kind of prayer. Primarily Paul says if you don't have an interpreter, sit down and shut up!!
No, you added that last part...nowhere in the Bible does it say that!Forbid not to speak in tongues if you have the actual genuine gift. But very few did (1Cor.12:28-30).
Forbid not to speak in tongues within the guidelines and restrictions I have given to you, which also means within the confines of the local church.
Again, you are adding to the Word of God! Nowhere does it say the manifestations have left, and nowhere does it say it was just for the Corinthian church!Forbid not to speak in tongues if you are living in the first century before the gift had ceased.
Forbid not to speak in tongues if you don't have evidence that you don't know that it is an actual language that you are speaking.
True, and in EVERY prayer we are to pray without ceasing! Especially in the last days!The disciples came to Jesus, and asked him: "Lord teach us to pray." And Jesus replied, "Pray in this manner.." and proceeded to teach them what we know as "The Lord's Prayer." That was before there was a church established.
In the same passage he taught this:
Matthew 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
--There is far more emphasis on private prayer then on corporate prayer. Nowhere does it say that "prayer is given to the church." Prayer is a command given to every Christian. We are to "pray without ceasing."
Sorry, you are still in unbelief! Sometimes we have to believe before we experience anything God has for us! That includes salvation! Without faith in God's Word we can not please him! Because if we do not believe his Word..we will not act on it! Most of us are taught not to believe certain things in the Bible, therefore we do not experience God in those area's.My belief is that you speak gibberish. Can you give me evidence to the contrary?
It was an unlearned language that the person speaking does not know. If the person knew the language then they would not have to pray for the interpretation as in vs. 13 of chapter 14.Biblical tongues were actual languages that they knew, for God had miraculously given them those languages. What languages can you speak?
Or is it just gibberish?
Gibberish is not of God.
You mentioned in another thread some time ago that you don't speak Spanish. But from what I know and have read, Spanish is like an "unofficial" second language in the U.S. If you heard people speaking in Spanish you would recognize the language that they are speaking in as Spanish, correct? The language is that prevalent in your country.It was an unlearned language that the person speaking does not know. If the person knew the language then they would not have to pray for the interpretation as in vs. 13 of chapter 14.
Nowhere in scritptues does it say that tongues was for preaching the gospel! Nowhere!I guess posting part of an article on Pentecostalism again might be helpful and enlightening:
"Because speaking in tongues was initially believed to always be actual foreign languages, it was believed that missionaries would no longer have to learn the languages of the peoples they evangelized because the Holy Spirit would provide whatever foreign language was required. (When the majority of missionaries, to their disappointment, learned that tongues speech was unintelligible on the mission field, Pentecostal leaders were forced to modify their understanding of tongues.)"
You reason this out in your mind so you can fit it in your theory...but the Word does not describe tongues as you do!You mentioned in another thread some time ago that you don't speak Spanish. But from what I know and have read, Spanish is like an "unofficial" second language in the U.S. If you heard people speaking in Spanish you would recognize the language that they are speaking in as Spanish, correct? The language is that prevalent in your country.
You haven't learned it. The gift of languages is, as you say, God giving a person an unlearned language that the person does not know. So if God gave you the gift of speaking Spanish, would you know it was Spanish? Of course you would! You would recognize the language that you were speaking in right away and be able to speak in it fluently. The purpose then would be to edify the church, not you. And if there were no Spanish people in your church speak to yourself and to God (or before God), but keep silent, for the gift is useless when there are no Spanish speaking people in the church. An interpreter would be necessary only to translate it back into English for the rest of the congregation. But if no Spanish people are there sit down and shut up. Quit showing off that you are spiritual and the rest are not because you can exercise this showy gift that others cannot. That was the problem in Corinth.
Keep quiet. Speak only to yourself and before God. This isn't prayer.
The gift is always used:
in the church for the edification of others.
with an interpreter.
only if needed. Thus there had to be two language groups present--such as Spanish and English in the illustration I have given you.
It was a real language to be used in the church, not at home. It was not the gibberish you speak. The fact that you cannot identify the language shows that what you do is wrong.
Yes it does. In fact the only meaning the word has is "languages." It does not mean "gibberish" or "ecstatic utterances" born out of emotionalism. They were real languages. The spoke with other languages.You reason this out in your mind so you can fit it in your theory...but the Word does not describe tongues as you do!
I have never denied that it was a known language. But the rest of your theory is not in the Bible!Yes it does. In fact the only meaning the word has is "languages." It does not mean "gibberish" or "ecstatic utterances" born out of emotionalism. They were real languages. The spoke with other languages.
"How hear we every man in our own language." How plain can that be?
It is not theory; it is what the Bible teaches.I have never denied that it was a known language. But the rest of your theory is not in the Bible!
There are many languages in the world I recognize maybe 5! Everytime you speak in tongues it could be a different language.It is not theory; it is what the Bible teaches.
Show me in my post (#74) where I am wrong.
Is it not evident that if God gave you the gift of languages, that you would know that it was a real language (like Spanish), and not just the gibberish that you speak. Own up! You know the honest answer to that question. You know that you can differentiate between actual languages and random syllables run together.
So what is there in what my post is not Biblically correct?
Explain it to me.