Researching apostles...

[DHK]

Since manifestation has been discussed between us on several threads...I will let that one alone!

"Acts of the apostles" is the name of the book not the "only miraculous acts ever done."

The Bible specifically says that signs and wonders accompanied the apostles. They authenticated the apostles, not others. Who, besides Philip and Stephen, performed signs and wonders?

Others besides the Twelve performed signs and wonders.

Besides Stephen and Philip, Who?

It is the Holy Spirit, not just the Twelve, that takes what is of Jesus and making it known to us and works through us. It is true also that it is the Holy Spirit not JUST the apostles that was manifested during that time! You give more credit to the apostles than you do the Holy Spirit.

You don't know what you talk about. The apostles performed signs and wonders as the Spirit gave them power to do so. It was a sign for them.
You have no idea what "manifestation of the Spirit" means or you wouldn't use the term. The Holy Spirit is manifested in me daily. But the gifts of the Spirit died out 1900 years ago. Think on that one.

Acts is not the transitional book as you are teaching! It was them acting out/manifesting what Jesus said they/we could! It was for the believers!

This statement only demonstrates an unteachable spirit. Go and study some NT Survey books. Get yourself an education.

THe same Holy Spirit that was promised on the Day of Pentecost is still here working where we are noe quenching with our unbelief!

The Holy Spirit is the same; the same as he was during the days of Creation. But he isn't working the same way, as you think he is. If he was you would be able to demonstrate that, but you can't. You can't meet the challenge I keep giving you to demonstrate that he is working the same way as he once did in the first century.
Demonstrate it by giving evidence of:
The gift of miracles,
The gift of healing,
The gift of languages.

Since you cannot, we know these gifts have ceased. Don't claim what you cannot do.

 

[awaken]

The Bible specifically says that signs and wonders accompanied the apostles. They authenticated the apostles, not others. Who, besides Philip and Stephen, performed signs and wonders?

I thought they authenticated the WORD that the apostles were preaching!

Besides Stephen and Philip, Who?

How many do you want? Just one more than the apostles is proof it was not JUST to authenticate the apostles or miracles were JUST for the apostles!

You don't know what you talk about. The apostles performed signs and wonders as the Spirit gave them power to do so. It was a sign for them.
You have no idea what "manifestation of the Spirit" means or you wouldn't use the term. The Holy Spirit is manifested in me daily. But the gifts of the Spirit died out 1900 years ago. Think on that one.

You think on it!! IT is the Holy Spirit within us..It is the Holy Spirit upon us! Without the Holy Spirit none of the nine in 1 Cor. could manifest in our lives or theirs! Are you trying to tell me it is the apostles manifesting themselves? They have no power without the Holy Spirit! It is therefore the HS that is manifested through them...unless you want to give credit to the flesh!

This statement only demonstrates an unteachable spirit. Go and study some NT Survey books. Get yourself an education.

I would rather the Holy Spirit teach me through His written word! You again give more credit to outside authors than you do His written word! Scriptures will interpret scriptures!

The Holy Spirit is the same; the same as he was during the days of Creation. But he isn't working the same way, as you think he is. If he was you would be able to demonstrate that, but you can't. You can't meet the challenge I keep giving you to demonstrate that he is working the same way as he once did in the first century.
Demonstrate it by giving evidence of:
The gift of miracles,
The gift of healing,
The gift of languages.

Since you cannot, we know these gifts have ceased. Don't claim what you cannot do.

Stick to scriptures and I will debate with you! I will continue to ignore all personal attacks to my personal walk with JEsus! You only post such as this because you do not have a scripture to prove your theory!

 

[DHK]

I thought they authenticated the WORD that the apostles were preaching!

Both the Apostles and the message of the Apostles had to be authenticated.

How many do you want? Just one more than the apostles is proof it was not JUST to authenticate the apostles or miracles were JUST for the apostles!

But you don't have one more.

You think on it!! IT is the Holy Spirit within us..It is the Holy Spirit upon us! Without the Holy Spirit none of the nine in 1 Cor. could manifest in our lives or theirs! Are you trying to tell me it is the apostles manifesting themselves? They have no power without the Holy Spirit! It is therefore the HS that is manifested through them...unless you want to give credit to the flesh!

The Holy Spirit dwells within every believer. That was the whole point of Pentecost. From that point onward the Holy Spirit would now come and indwell the believer instead of coming upon the believer.
However the text also says that the Spirit filled them and they spoke with other tongues.
The filling of the Holy Spirit is also available to every believer.
In Acts 4, the disciples came together and prayed. After they prayed, the earth shook, and they spoke the Word of God boldly.
The filling of the Spirit is directly related to the command in Acts 1:8--to preaching the gospel, to speaking boldly, witnessing boldly.
The command is given in Eph. 5:18.

I would rather the Holy Spirit teach me through His written word! You again give more credit to outside authors than you do His written word! Scriptures will interpret scriptures!

And that is precisely why you will remain confused.
I have a library of over 2,000 books, plus close to a thousand more books on my computer from various software programs, and a good working knowledge of where to find various resources on the internet as well. I can draw on the wisdom of others. You spurn that very wisdom and that is sad.
The Holy Spirit does not work in a vacuum. He works through individuals.
Can't you see and understand? God gave local churches pastors, teachers, and evangelists for their edification and their teaching. He doesn't expect them to learn on their own. He doesn't expect you to learn simply by allowing the "Holy Spirit teach you."
That isn't even Biblical.
It is the very reason that I have been teaching in a Bible College for more than 30 years, preparing others for the ministry.

Stick to scriptures and I will debate with you! I will continue to ignore all personal attacks to my personal walk with JEsus! You only post such as this because you do not have a scripture to prove your theory!

I will repeat it again, for what I said is very Scriptural. There is nothing unscriptural about the immutability about the third person of the eternal Godhead. He is the same person at Creation as he is today.

But just as he worked in different ways then, he worked in a different way in the Apostolic Age, and he works in a different way now, 2,000 years later.

The Holy Spirit is the same; the same as he was during the days of Creation. But he isn't working the same way, as you think he is. If he was you would be able to demonstrate that, but you can't. You can't meet the challenge I keep giving you to demonstrate that he is working the same way as he once did in the first century.
Demonstrate it by giving evidence of:
The gift of miracles,
The gift of healing,
The gift of languages.

Since you cannot, we know these gifts have ceased. Don't claim what you cannot do.

Thus evidence is a very important thing in our lives.
Read Eph.2:8-10
Verses 8,9 speak of our salvation. But verse 10 speaks of the result of our salvation which is works. If the Christian life is not evidenced by works; if there is no change perhaps he was never changed in the first place. There must be evidence.
In the same way, when you claim the gifts there must be evidence for the reality of the claim.

 

[Yeshua1]

I thought they authenticated the WORD that the apostles were preaching!

How many do you want? Just one more than the apostles is proof it was not JUST to authenticate the apostles or miracles were JUST for the apostles!

You think on it!! IT is the Holy Spirit within us..It is the Holy Spirit upon us! Without the Holy Spirit none of the nine in 1 Cor. could manifest in our lives or theirs! Are you trying to tell me it is the apostles manifesting themselves? They have no power without the Holy Spirit! It is therefore the HS that is manifested through them...unless you want to give credit to the flesh!

I would rather the Holy Spirit teach me through His written word! You again give more credit to outside authors than you do His written word! Scriptures will interpret scriptures!

Stick to scriptures and I will debate with you! I will continue to ignore all personal attacks to my personal walk with JEsus! You only post such as this because you do not have a scripture to prove your theory!

Apostle paul stated the Full gospel is the birth/death/resurrection of Jesus, and that thry faith we have life in his name!

Do you have that "full Gospel?"


And do you see there IS a difference between the 12 Apostles and paul, and ANY so called ones today?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

.............The Holy Spirit is manifested in me daily. ...........

You go think on that one again ...!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I believe in miracles; I experience them day by day. Some are just greater than most.

I thank God I need not explain these miracles from the Bible--the God in the Bible is their only explanation. "I AM THE LIFE." Where is greater proof of miracles than the miracle to see them?

Unhappy man that does not believe in miracles or has found no miracles or whom no miracles have found!

 

[awaken]

Both the Apostles and the message of the Apostles had to be authenticated.

But you don't have one more.

The Holy Spirit dwells within every believer. That was the whole point of Pentecost. From that point onward the Holy Spirit would now come and indwell the believer instead of coming upon the believer.
However the text also says that the Spirit filled them and they spoke with other tongues.
The filling of the Holy Spirit is also available to every believer.
In Acts 4, the disciples came together and prayed. After they prayed, the earth shook, and they spoke the Word of God boldly.
The filling of the Spirit is directly related to the command in Acts 1:8--to preaching the gospel, to speaking boldly, witnessing boldly.
The command is given in Eph. 5:18.

And that is precisely why you will remain confused.
I have a library of over 2,000 books, plus close to a thousand more books on my computer from various software programs, and a good working knowledge of where to find various resources on the internet as well. I can draw on the wisdom of others. You spurn that very wisdom and that is sad.
The Holy Spirit does not work in a vacuum. He works through individuals.
Can't you see and understand? God gave local churches pastors, teachers, and evangelists for their edification and their teaching. He doesn't expect them to learn on their own. He doesn't expect you to learn simply by allowing the "Holy Spirit teach you."
That isn't even Biblical.
It is the very reason that I have been teaching in a Bible College for more than 30 years, preparing others for the ministry.

I will repeat it again, for what I said is very Scriptural. There is nothing unscriptural about the immutability about the third person of the eternal Godhead. He is the same person at Creation as he is today.

But just as he worked in different ways then, he worked in a different way in the Apostolic Age, and he works in a different way now, 2,000 years later.

The Holy Spirit is the same; the same as he was during the days of Creation. But he isn't working the same way, as you think he is. If he was you would be able to demonstrate that, but you can't. You can't meet the challenge I keep giving you to demonstrate that he is working the same way as he once did in the first century.
Demonstrate it by giving evidence of:
The gift of miracles,
The gift of healing,
The gift of languages.

Since you cannot, we know these gifts have ceased. Don't claim what you cannot do.

Thus evidence is a very important thing in our lives.
Read Eph.2:8-10
Verses 8,9 speak of our salvation. But verse 10 speaks of the result of our salvation which is works. If the Christian life is not evidenced by works; if there is no change perhaps he was never changed in the first place. There must be evidence.
In the same way, when you claim the gifts there must be evidence for the reality of the claim.

You can have a 1000 books and 1000 degrees but without the Holy Spirit you can not understand spiritual things!
See, you take too much out of the Bible and add too much to it to believe as you do!
I noticed that you left out what Eph. 4 did not! Apostles and Prophets! We need all of them not just the evangalist, pastors and teacher!

 

[awaken]

You go think on that one again ...!

Well...the flesh does win out more...but tongues/prophecy/word of wisdom/word of knowledge do manifest from time to time as He wills!

 

[DHK]

You can have a 1000 books and 1000 degrees but without the Holy Spirit you can not understand spiritual things!
See, you take too much out of the Bible and add too much to it to believe as you do!
I noticed that you left out what Eph. 4 did not! Apostles and Prophets! We need all of them not just the evangalist, pastors and teacher!

It is evident that if the Apostles died in the first century that we don't need them today. I haven't seen the Apostle Peter or Paul or even John around lately. Have you? Or do you have seances and bring them up from the dead?
Along with the Apostles the prophets died out at the end of the century when the NT canon was completed. We don't need any more revelation. God's word is complete.
Thus the three offices remain for the building up and edification of local churches. What don't you understand about that?

 

[Yeshua1]

Well...the flesh does win out more...but tongues/prophecy/word of wisdom/word of knowledge do manifest from time to time as He wills!

what is their purpose though? To guide and direct you, in a way that the bible cannot?

Do tongues allow you to share/witness to someone who speaks a foreign language to you?

 

[Thomas Helwys]

It is evident that if the Apostles died in the first century that we don't need them today. I haven't seen the Apostle Peter or Paul or even John around lately. Have you? Or do you have seances and bring them up from the dead?
Along with the Apostles the prophets died out at the end of the century when the NT canon was completed. We don't need any more revelation. God's word is complete.
Thus the three offices remain for the building up and edification of local churches. What don't you understand about that?

:laugh:

Actually, that is not too far-fetched, considering some charismatic churches I've been in. In one, they had a visiting "prophet" (profit) who did what I considered pretty close to palm reading, in effect. And he drew huge crowds to this little isolated country charismatic church. Poor deceived souls.

 

[awaken]

It is evident that if the Apostles died in the first century that we don't need them today. I haven't seen the Apostle Peter or Paul or even John around lately. Have you? Or do you have seances and bring them up from the dead?
Along with the Apostles the prophets died out at the end of the century when the NT canon was completed. We don't need any more revelation. God's word is complete.
Thus the three offices remain for the building up and edification of local churches. What don't you understand about that?

What I don't understand is your interpretation of Eph. 4!

 

[awaken]

what is their purpose though? To guide and direct you, in a way that the bible cannot?

Do tongues allow you to share/witness to someone who speaks a foreign language to you?

Well, since this is a thread on the apostles....we will leave that discussion for another thread! Maybe you would like to open a thread and share exactly what your church teaches on what the gifts were SUPPOSE to be when they did exist!

 

[DHK]

What I don't understand is your interpretation of Eph. 4!

Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

This letter, written by Paul to the church at Ephesus was written ca. 60 A.D. in the first century before the apostles had died, before the canon of Scripture was complete. To this early church, as with all these contemporary churches God gave them apostles, prophets, evangelists, and teachers. But the apostles and prophets would not be for all churches. This letter was for Ephesus. It would be passed on to near-by churches and eventually preserved as Scripture. But its original intent was for the believers at Ephesus. He writes that they needed the apostles and prophets, etc., not that we need all five offices.
We need only the last three of them because the apostles and prophets have done their job. They have laid the foundation. We have what they did not have--the completed Word of God. Their ministry is finished. The Bible takes their place.
There are no apostles today.
There are no prophets today.
We have the completed word of God; apostles and prophets are not needed today. They died at the end of the first century. They have never been replaced. There is no apostolic succession. There is no prophetic office. There is no gift of prophecy.

 

[awaken]

Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

This letter, written by Paul to the church at Ephesus was written ca. 60 A.D. in the first century before the apostles had died, before the canon of Scripture was complete. To this early church, as with all these contemporary churches God gave them apostles, prophets, evangelists, and teachers. But the apostles and prophets would not be for all churches. This letter was for Ephesus. It would be passed on to near-by churches and eventually preserved as Scripture. But its original intent was for the believers at Ephesus. He writes that they needed the apostles and prophets, etc., not that we need all five offices.
We need only the last three of them because the apostles and prophets have done their job. They have laid the foundation. We have what they did not have--the completed Word of God. Their ministry is finished. The Bible takes their place.
There are no apostles today.
There are no prophets today.
We have the completed word of God; apostles and prophets are not needed today. They died at the end of the first century. They have never been replaced. There is no apostolic succession. There is no prophetic office. There is no gift of prophecy.

And you have no scripture to proof of that! So that is just an assumption!
I have stated over and over...Jesus sent those 5 ministry gifts to the church to equip the church AFTER he asecended! He equipped them, HOW?
UNtil you can prove we are the measure of Christ (without twisting scriptues)...then you have nothing to debate this scripture with!

 

[Yeshua1]

And you have no scripture to proof of that! So that is just an assumption!
I have stated over and over...Jesus sent those 5 ministry gifts to the church to equip the church AFTER he asecended! He equipped them, HOW?
UNtil you can prove we are the measure of Christ (without twisting scriptues)...then you have nothing to debate this scripture with!

the Church has NEVER said that there wee ANY Ot prophets/NT Apsotles that were still functioning in the Body of christ, outside of the groups like the Mormons/JW/RCC, so the Charasmatics have quite a 'brotherhood" they are linked together with on this topic!

 

[DHK]

And you have no scripture to proof of that! So that is just an assumption!
I have stated over and over...Jesus sent those 5 ministry gifts to the church to equip the church AFTER he asecended! He equipped them, HOW?
UNtil you can prove we are the measure of Christ (without twisting scriptues)...then you have nothing to debate this scripture with!

1. Prove that there has been apostolic succession from the first century until now.
2. Prove that history shows that churches held to apostolic offices.
3. Prove that the Bible indicates that each of the apostolic offices were to continue.
4. Why are there only 12 names written on the foundations of the 12 walls of the New Jerusalem if the office was to continue.

The time of the ascension is a moot point. It has nothing to do with this discussion since all the apostles were alive at that time.

 

[Revmitchell]

 

[awaken]

the Church has NEVER said that there wee ANY Ot prophets/NT Apsotles that were still functioning in the Body of christ, outside of the groups like the Mormons/JW/RCC, so the Charasmatics have quite a 'brotherhood" they are linked together with on this topic!

God's plan was for them all to be functioning in the church until we come to the FULL MEASURE of Jesus Christ!

 

[awaken]

1. Prove that there has been apostolic succession from the first century until now.
2. Prove that history shows that churches held to apostolic offices.
3. Prove that the Bible indicates that each of the apostolic offices were to continue.
4. Why are there only 12 names written on the foundations of the 12 walls of the New Jerusalem if the office was to continue.

The time of the ascension is a moot point. It has nothing to do with this discussion since all the apostles were alive at that time.

Here you go...proof that the Word of God is true!
There can be 12 names written on the wall and still have more apostles! Where are you going to fit Paul in the wall? I guess you are going to kick Matthias out???

It is a major point that you want to ignore! Because to understand that significance you would have to reconsider your theory! He called the 12 before his resurrection. Matthias and Paul, just to name two, were called after the ascension! He sent these gifts to the church...AFTER his ascension Until we reach the FULL measure of Christ!