Thomas Helwys
New Member
LOL!
It is impossible to debate someone who takes your response and twists it into something you didn't say. Debate is not possible without honesty.
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Indwelling/ upon Holy Spirit
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LOL!
It is impossible to debate someone who takes your response and twists it into something you didn't say. Debate is not possible without honesty.
Again...I notice before the disciples at Ephesus were baptized in the Holy Spirit, the apostle Paul asked them if they had received the Holy Spirit when they believed in Jesus:
"While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?"" They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit." So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?" "John's baptism," they replied. Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied." (Acts 19:1-6)
Remember, Paul taught that we are automatically sealed with the Holy Spirit when we believe. Yet in the above passage Paul asked these disciples if they had received the Holy Spirit when they believed. He wasn't asking if they had been sealed with the indwelling Holy Spirit at salvation because it was Paul himself who taught that everyone is automatically sealed with the Holy Spirit when they believe. Paul was asking these disciples something else.
He was asking if they had received the "baptism" of the Holy Spirit yet. This baptism is a second experience of the Holy Spirit which we can receive after we become saved.
Since Paul asked this question, it shows that it is possible to be saved without receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Otherwise there would have been no need for Paul to ask this question! Paul assumed that they were Christians (which would have meant that they had automatically been sealed with the indwelling Holy Spirit), and he simply asked if they had received the baptism of the Holy Spirit at the time of their salvation. Their reply demonstrated their lack of knowledge (they were probably not yet saved), so Paul explained to them about Jesus, then he baptized them in water, and then he laid hands on them and they received the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Here's another point to consider. If we have received salvation, how do we know that we have received the indwelling Holy Spirit? The answer is that we take it on faith that the Holy Spirit now lives in our hearts because the Bible says so. Yet Paul asked these disciples if they had received the Holy Spirit. Think about that for a moment. The Holy Spirit is invisible, so how would they know if they had received the Holy Spirit? There are always supernatural manifestations which accompany the baptism of the Holy Spirit in the New Testament. There are no exceptions to this. That's how these disciples would have known if they had been baptized with the Holy Spirit, because they would have experienced some supernatural manifestations. Notice that when Paul laid hands on them and they received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, they immediately began speaking in tongues and prophesying. At that point they knew that they had been baptized with the Holy Spirit! Notice that this happened after they had received salvation.
These examples provide further confirmation that the baptism of the Holy Spirit does not refer to being sealed with the indwelling Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation. Instead, it refers to a separate event after salvation which is for empowering a Christian to function supernaturally in the body of Christ.
"While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?"" They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit." So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?" "John's baptism," they replied. Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied." (Acts 19:1-6)
Remember, Paul taught that we are automatically sealed with the Holy Spirit when we believe. Yet in the above passage Paul asked these disciples if they had received the Holy Spirit when they believed. He wasn't asking if they had been sealed with the indwelling Holy Spirit at salvation because it was Paul himself who taught that everyone is automatically sealed with the Holy Spirit when they believe. Paul was asking these disciples something else.
He was asking if they had received the "baptism" of the Holy Spirit yet. This baptism is a second experience of the Holy Spirit which we can receive after we become saved.
Since Paul asked this question, it shows that it is possible to be saved without receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Otherwise there would have been no need for Paul to ask this question! Paul assumed that they were Christians (which would have meant that they had automatically been sealed with the indwelling Holy Spirit), and he simply asked if they had received the baptism of the Holy Spirit at the time of their salvation. Their reply demonstrated their lack of knowledge (they were probably not yet saved), so Paul explained to them about Jesus, then he baptized them in water, and then he laid hands on them and they received the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Here's another point to consider. If we have received salvation, how do we know that we have received the indwelling Holy Spirit? The answer is that we take it on faith that the Holy Spirit now lives in our hearts because the Bible says so. Yet Paul asked these disciples if they had received the Holy Spirit. Think about that for a moment. The Holy Spirit is invisible, so how would they know if they had received the Holy Spirit? There are always supernatural manifestations which accompany the baptism of the Holy Spirit in the New Testament. There are no exceptions to this. That's how these disciples would have known if they had been baptized with the Holy Spirit, because they would have experienced some supernatural manifestations. Notice that when Paul laid hands on them and they received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, they immediately began speaking in tongues and prophesying. At that point they knew that they had been baptized with the Holy Spirit! Notice that this happened after they had received salvation.
These examples provide further confirmation that the baptism of the Holy Spirit does not refer to being sealed with the indwelling Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation. Instead, it refers to a separate event after salvation which is for empowering a Christian to function supernaturally in the body of Christ.
Can you read with any degree of comprehension at all.Well, again we disagree! Water does not save!
Go back and read it again. Study carefully.
I never said once that baptism saves.
Thomas Helwys
New Member
Again...I notice before the disciples at Ephesus were baptized in the Holy Spirit, the apostle Paul asked them if they had received the Holy Spirit when they believed in Jesus:
"While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?"" They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit." So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?" "John's baptism," they replied. Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied." (Acts 19:1-6)
Remember, Paul taught that we are automatically sealed with the Holy Spirit when we believe. Yet in the above passage Paul asked these disciples if they had received the Holy Spirit when they believed. He wasn't asking if they had been sealed with the indwelling Holy Spirit at salvation because it was Paul himself who taught that everyone is automatically sealed with the Holy Spirit when they believe. Paul was asking these disciples something else.
He was asking if they had received the "baptism" of the Holy Spirit yet. This baptism is a second experience of the Holy Spirit which we can receive after we become saved.
Since Paul asked this question, it shows that it is possible to be saved without receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Otherwise there would have been no need for Paul to ask this question! Paul assumed that they were Christians (which would have meant that they had automatically been sealed with the indwelling Holy Spirit), and he simply asked if they had received the baptism of the Holy Spirit at the time of their salvation. Their reply demonstrated their lack of knowledge (they were probably not yet saved), so Paul explained to them about Jesus, then he baptized them in water, and then he laid hands on them and they received the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Here's another point to consider. If we have received salvation, how do we know that we have received the indwelling Holy Spirit? The answer is that we take it on faith that the Holy Spirit now lives in our hearts because the Bible says so. Yet Paul asked these disciples if they had received the Holy Spirit. Think about that for a moment. The Holy Spirit is invisible, so how would they know if they had received the Holy Spirit? There are always supernatural manifestations which accompany the baptism of the Holy Spirit in the New Testament. There are no exceptions to this. That's how these disciples would have known if they had been baptized with the Holy Spirit, because they would have experienced some supernatural manifestations. Notice that when Paul laid hands on them and they received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, they immediately began speaking in tongues and prophesying. At that point they knew that they had been baptized with the Holy Spirit! Notice that this happened after they had received salvation.
These examples provide further confirmation that the baptism of the Holy Spirit does not refer to being sealed with the indwelling Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation. Instead, it refers to a separate event after salvation which is for empowering a Christian to function supernaturally in the body of Christ.
You have posted this scripture over and over, and I have answered it over and over. How many times do you have to be told that these were NOT Christian disciples? They were merely disciples of John. Yet you take this with a couple of other passages and proclaim the false gospel of a HS baptism separate from and after conversion. When you start with a false premise, you end up with a false doctrine.
For the umpteenth time, these WERE NOT Christin disciples, they were disciples of John only.
Thomas Helwys
New Member
Can you read with any degree of comprehension at all.
Go back and read it again. Study carefully.
I never said once that baptism saves.
Either the answer to that is a resounding "NO!", or she is willfully ignorant and/or dishonest. This is painfully obvious.
Well, Eph. 4 is plain that it is one baptism that brings us into the body of Christ! Is it water or spirit?Can you read with any degree of comprehension at all.
Go back and read it again. Study carefully.
I never said once that baptism saves.
Why Did Jesus Call It the "Baptism" of the Holy Spirit?
In earlier post I shared that Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit into the disciples on the day that He was resurrected, exactly paralleling His act of breathing the spirit of life into Adam. Adam immediately received spiritual life, and so did the disciples. We also saw that 40 days later, Jesus told the disciples that they will soon be "baptized" with the Holy Spirit in order to receive supernatural power.
Why did Jesus call this a "baptism"?
Compare this Spirit baptism with the two forms of water baptism mentioned in the New Testament in order to see the parallels between these three types of baptisms:
All three baptisms are voluntary and are not required for salvation:
John's water baptism was voluntary. People chose to be baptized:
"John's clothes were made of camel's hair, and he had a leather belt around his waist. His food was locusts and wild honey. People went out to him from Jerusalem and all Judea and the whole region of the Jordan. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River." (Matthew 3:4-6)
John's baptism was voluntary, and it was not a requirement for salvation. Notice that John's baptism was not considered to be a Christian baptism because in Ephesus the apostle Paul rebaptized people who had only had John's baptism.
Christian water baptism is also a voluntary act which we choose to do in obedience to Christ. It would take up too much space to go into all of the proof that water baptism is not required for salvation...that is another thread!
Spirit baptism is also voluntary (that is, if God did not baptize us in the Holy Spirit right after we received salvation, as He did for Cornelius' household in Acts 10:44-45). We are told that we can ask our Father for the gift of the Holy Spirit:
"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!" (Luke 11:13)
Notice that God is only the Father of Christians (John 1:12-13, Romans 8:12-18, 29, Ephesians 2:18-19, Galatians 3:26-27, and 4:4-7), which indicates that we must first become saved before we can ask our Father for the gift of the Holy Spirit. Remember, the above verse is not referring to salvation because we do not become saved by asking for the Holy Spirit. Since we can ask for this gift, this demonstrates that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is not required for salvation and does not always happen automatically at the time of salvation.
In earlier post I shared that Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit into the disciples on the day that He was resurrected, exactly paralleling His act of breathing the spirit of life into Adam. Adam immediately received spiritual life, and so did the disciples. We also saw that 40 days later, Jesus told the disciples that they will soon be "baptized" with the Holy Spirit in order to receive supernatural power.
Why did Jesus call this a "baptism"?
Compare this Spirit baptism with the two forms of water baptism mentioned in the New Testament in order to see the parallels between these three types of baptisms:
All three baptisms are voluntary and are not required for salvation:
John's water baptism was voluntary. People chose to be baptized:
"John's clothes were made of camel's hair, and he had a leather belt around his waist. His food was locusts and wild honey. People went out to him from Jerusalem and all Judea and the whole region of the Jordan. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River." (Matthew 3:4-6)
John's baptism was voluntary, and it was not a requirement for salvation. Notice that John's baptism was not considered to be a Christian baptism because in Ephesus the apostle Paul rebaptized people who had only had John's baptism.
Christian water baptism is also a voluntary act which we choose to do in obedience to Christ. It would take up too much space to go into all of the proof that water baptism is not required for salvation...that is another thread!
Spirit baptism is also voluntary (that is, if God did not baptize us in the Holy Spirit right after we received salvation, as He did for Cornelius' household in Acts 10:44-45). We are told that we can ask our Father for the gift of the Holy Spirit:
"If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!" (Luke 11:13)
Notice that God is only the Father of Christians (John 1:12-13, Romans 8:12-18, 29, Ephesians 2:18-19, Galatians 3:26-27, and 4:4-7), which indicates that we must first become saved before we can ask our Father for the gift of the Holy Spirit. Remember, the above verse is not referring to salvation because we do not become saved by asking for the Holy Spirit. Since we can ask for this gift, this demonstrates that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is not required for salvation and does not always happen automatically at the time of salvation.
You honestly can't comprehend this post:Well, Eph. 4 is plain that it is one baptism that brings us into the body of Christ! Is it water or spirit?
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1971033&postcount=73
You honestly can't comprehend this post:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1971033&postcount=73
I comprehend it! I just don't agree with it!
What denomination is going to be in heaven as the bride of Christ? Yours?
I never mentioned the bride of Christ. That is a different topic.I comprehend it! I just don't agree with it!
What denomination is going to be in heaven as the bride of Christ? Yours?
Take one baby step at a time.
Understand what I posted.
If you understood what I posted, then you wouldn't ask my questions on what I don't believe.
For example, would you ask Tom H. "Do you believe you will believe one of the 144,000?"
Why do you ask questions based on assumptions of your belief system not ours, or at least mine--what I have posted for you.
Well, I believe in a universal spiritual church! We are all ONE!I never mentioned the bride of Christ. That is a different topic.
Take one baby step at a time.
Understand what I posted.
If you understood what I posted, then you wouldn't ask my questions on what I don't believe.
For example, would you ask Tom H. "Do you believe you will believe one of the 144,000?"
Why do you ask questions based on assumptions of your belief system not ours, or at least mine--what I have posted for you.
Yes, we have local churches! But when it comes to salvation we are all born of one Spirit, We all have the same Lord, We as born again believer have One faith and it is only One baptism that puts into the body of Christ! ..and that is not water baptism!
All three baptisms involve an outer sign which follows an inner change:
John the Baptist's baptism was for repentance. He called on people to repent and then be baptized. Being baptized in water was an outer, public sign of the person's inner repentance.
Christian water baptism always followed a person's salvation. Being baptized in water is an outer, public sign of the person's inner faith in Christ.
Just like water baptism, the baptism of the Holy Spirit is only available to people after they receive salvation.
John the Baptist's baptism was for repentance. He called on people to repent and then be baptized. Being baptized in water was an outer, public sign of the person's inner repentance.
Christian water baptism always followed a person's salvation. Being baptized in water is an outer, public sign of the person's inner faith in Christ.
Just like water baptism, the baptism of the Holy Spirit is only available to people after they receive salvation.
Your opinion is irrelevant. The question is: What does the Bible teach?Well, I believe in a universal spiritual church! We are all ONE!
Yes, we have local churches! But when it comes to salvation we are all born of one Spirit, We all have the same Lord, We as born again believer have One faith and it is only One baptism that puts into the body of Christ! ..and that is not water baptism!
The word translated church is ekklesia. The meaning of ekklesia is "assembly." It is impossible to have an unassembled assembly or thus a universal church. It is a contradiction of terms. It doesn't matter what you believe. Every time the word ekklesia is used in the Bible it refers to a local church. There is no universal church taught in the Bible. The word means assembly. If you used either Darby's or Young's translation you would see that they would consistently translate the word "assembly" and not "church."
When we are born again we are born into the family of God, not into The Church.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
--Use the family of God; the Kingdom, but not "the Church." There are churches, but not "The Church" or the Universal Church." No such animal exists.
You can believe that if you want, but your belief will be wrong. It is not what the Bible teaches.
I believe in the local church! But we should not be separated by local churches spiritually! That is the work of satan!Your opinion is irrelevant. The question is: What does the Bible teach?
The word translated church is ekklesia. The meaning of ekklesia is "assembly." It is impossible to have an unassembled assembly or thus a universal church. It is a contradiction of terms. It doesn't matter what you believe. Every time the word ekklesia is used in the Bible it refers to a local church. There is no universal church taught in the Bible. The word means assembly. If you used either Darby's or Young's translation you would see that they would consistently translate the word "assembly" and not "church."
When we are born again we are born into the family of God, not into The Church.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
--Use the family of God; the Kingdom, but not "the Church." There are churches, but not "The Church" or the Universal Church." No such animal exists.
You can believe that if you want, but your belief will be wrong. It is not what the Bible teaches.
We are by one Spirit in the body of Christ! That is a spiritual birth......The church is the body of Christ!
Are you saying the work of the local church is the work of satan??I believe in the local church! But we should not be separated by local churches spiritually! That is the work of satan!
One thing is true. I have never known a group to split up churches more than Charismatics do. They are very divisive.
Are you saying the work of the local church is the work of satan??
One thing is true. I have never known a group to split up churches more than Charismatics do. They are very divisive.
What? You are twisting my words??? See how easy it is..not meaning too..just trying to understand what the poster is REALLY SAYING! Questions are not twisting the posters post as some state!
But to answer your question (since I am sure you ask it just to better understand my post and not twist my words to make me look bad)..that one was for Thomas by the way!
My answer is NO! I said the SEPARATION of the different churches/religions is satan!
God's truth is sharper than a two edge sword....those that can not embrace the truth usually do get offended by it!
Ecumenism is of Satan. The ecumenical movement, helped along by the Charismatic movement is a wicked movement to try and get all churches from all denominations to unite together regardless of doctrine. Unity has become more important than doctrine. Doctrine has been sacrificed on the altar of unity.What? You are twisting my words??? See how easy it is..not meaning too..just trying to understand what the poster is REALLY SAYING! Questions are not twisting the posters post as some state!
But to answer your question (since I am sure you ask it just to better understand my post and not twist my words to make me look bad)..that one was for Thomas by the way!
My answer is NO! I said the SEPARATION of the different churches/religions is satan!
God's truth is sharper than a two edge sword....those that can not embrace the truth usually do get offended by it!
Paul went on three different missionary journeys and established approximately 100 different churches--all independent of each other. They were not in unity one with another. The members were in unity with each other. That is the goal of each and every local church. You can see that on this board. There are Calvinistic churches and non-Calvinistic churches. If you ask the pastors of those churches if they have unity in their churches I am sure that some of them will tell you that they do. But this is a debate board where pastors of different persuasions debate various persuasions. Thus there is not unity on the board.
Some day the antichrist will come, and use the ecumenical movement with the Charismatic movement and he will establish his one world antichrist church using these two movements as his foundation.
Yeah...and I remember growing up I was taught the Pope was going to be the antichrist and it was the catholic religion that was going to bring it in.....Ecumenism is of Satan. The ecumenical movement, helped along by the Charismatic movement is a wicked movement to try and get all churches from all denominations to unite together regardless of doctrine. Unity has become more important than doctrine. Doctrine has been sacrificed on the altar of unity.
Paul went on three different missionary journeys and established approximately 100 different churches--all independent of each other. They were not in unity one with another. The members were in unity with each other. That is the goal of each and every local church. You can see that on this board. There are Calvinistic churches and non-Calvinistic churches. If you ask the pastors of those churches if they have unity in their churches I am sure that some of them will tell you that they do. But this is a debate board where pastors of different persuasions debate various persuasions. Thus there is not unity on the board.
Some day the antichrist will come, and use the ecumenical movement with the Charismatic movement and he will establish his one world antichrist church using these two movements as his foundation.
Whatever, DHK...you keep resenting the doctrines in the Bible that do not agree with your MAN MADE theololy! The manifestation of the HOly Spirit being one of them!
Nothing of what I have posted to you is "man-made theology".Yeah...and I remember growing up I was taught the Pope was going to be the antichrist and it was the catholic religion that was going to bring it in.....
Whatever, DHK...you keep resenting the doctrines in the Bible that do not agree with your MAN MADE theololy! The manifestation of the HOly Spirit being one of them!
I have presented to you Biblical doctrine and you can't refute it.
You can make a mockery of the Bible like an unsaved person, but you can't give a decent refutation to my post. Your answer is pitiful.
I am sorry, did I miss a scriptue in that verse????Nothing of what I have posted to you is "man-made theology".
I have presented to you Biblical doctrine and you can't refute it.
You can make a mockery of the Bible like an unsaved person, but you can't give a decent refutation to my post. Your answer is pitiful.
How do I give a decent refutal to a post that is pitiful and only leads people to concentrate on the false rather than the Word of God! My faith comes from what He says...not on fake and false out there!