I have many Pastor Friends who believes the Holy Spirit only indwells New Testament believers,and Old Testament believers had the spirit come upon them. I disagree but wanted to kick this around to hear what you guys"and Gals" think.:type:
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Were Old Tesament Saints Born Again?
- Thread starter Jedi Knight
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I have battled this question myself...I thought we were all saved by faith!
Salvation has always been by grace through faith. That's Paul's whole point in Galatians 1 and elsewhere.
Dispensationalism gets kinda dangerous here, in my opinion.
The OT is not to be discarded. It does not represent an old way to salvation that ought to be replaced with a new way.
It represents an old incomplete revelation of salvation that needs to be completed.
The NT does not REPLACE the OT- it fulfills it.
The confusion arises over NT verses that condemn the current Jewish religion in the first century.
People tend to think that the Judaism of Jesus' day was the OT faith. It was not. It was a severe perversion of the OT faith. It was legalistic. It resulted from a terror of God judging the Jews again as he did with the Babylonian destruction. To keep themselves from going back into idolatry and immorality they became obsessed with the law and started building up the law with hedges about the law and traditions of men. The result was a departure from the faith of the Patriarchs and the Prophets which was based in salvation by grace through faith to a perversion of that faith in the form of legalism.
That is a bit oversimplistic because it does not address numerous other factors and factions (like the Sadducess) but it suffices to make the point. What Jesus and Paul condemned was not clinging to the OT. NO!! It was clinging to a perversion of the OT.
The only things that were to not be observed were those laws that were fulfilled in Christ (ceremonial laws) and the laws that were specific to the nation of Israel (civil laws).
Though I wouldn't use the term "born again" I would say that the saints of the OT were saved through the covenantal blessing of God as they had faith in an were faithful towards God.
I believe they were and Jesus was reiterating to Nick @ Night the OT thus the "Are you a teacher of Israel and don't know these things?"
"Testament" before the spelling Police decides to pull me over.:smilewinkgrin:
psalms109:31
Active Member
1 Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.
John 7:39
By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.
Psalm 51:11
Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me.
We are being born again by His word, Moses by a burning bush before watching his people suffer in Egypt, Jonah by a worm, before suffered in the belling of a fish. The messenger of the Holy Spirit can come from anything it doesn't make the messenger special. It is the message and the one who sent it is what is important.
I do believe old testament saints God let certain people borrow the Holy Spirit to accomplish His purpose and will, but not a permanent dwelling like us who believe after Jesus is glorified
It is His words that is changing us making us into a new creation being born again by these words.
It is amazing how by a word God can move people like Abraham to do what he did without an indwelling who did not receive the promise, just makes me think we should do so much more being indwelt.
Hebrews 11 :
39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.
We might talk to more than 5 thousand people and not one would listen to us and then one who does we are depressed and defeating because of the 5 thousand who did not, but by that 1 doing the same who God reached them through us will advanced the kingdom more than we think.
I might never see the result of what I am doing, but i trust God to continue to do it even if I do not know what I am accomplishing by doing it.
Isaiah 6 ..Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”
9 He said, “Go and tell this people:
“‘Be ever hearing, but never understanding;
be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’
10 Make the heart of this people calloused;
make their ears dull
and close their eyes.[Hebrew; Septuagint ‘You will be ever hearing, but never understanding; / you will be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’ / 10 This people’s heart has become calloused; / they hardly hear with their ears, / and they have closed their eyes]
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts,
and turn and be healed.”
11 Then I said, “For how long, Lord?”
And he answered:
“Until the cities lie ruined
and without inhabitant,
until the houses are left deserted
and the fields ruined and ravaged,
12 until the Lord has sent everyone far away
and the land is utterly forsaken.
13 And though a tenth remains in the land,
it will again be laid waste.
But as the terebinth and oak
leave stumps when they are cut down,
so the holy seed will be the stump in the land.”
Will you go out to preach the Gospel where only a tenth of the people will listen and remain?
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.
John 7:39
By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.
Psalm 51:11
Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me.
We are being born again by His word, Moses by a burning bush before watching his people suffer in Egypt, Jonah by a worm, before suffered in the belling of a fish. The messenger of the Holy Spirit can come from anything it doesn't make the messenger special. It is the message and the one who sent it is what is important.
I do believe old testament saints God let certain people borrow the Holy Spirit to accomplish His purpose and will, but not a permanent dwelling like us who believe after Jesus is glorified
It is His words that is changing us making us into a new creation being born again by these words.
It is amazing how by a word God can move people like Abraham to do what he did without an indwelling who did not receive the promise, just makes me think we should do so much more being indwelt.
Hebrews 11 :
39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.
We might talk to more than 5 thousand people and not one would listen to us and then one who does we are depressed and defeating because of the 5 thousand who did not, but by that 1 doing the same who God reached them through us will advanced the kingdom more than we think.
I might never see the result of what I am doing, but i trust God to continue to do it even if I do not know what I am accomplishing by doing it.
Isaiah 6 ..Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”
9 He said, “Go and tell this people:
“‘Be ever hearing, but never understanding;
be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’
10 Make the heart of this people calloused;
make their ears dull
and close their eyes.[Hebrew; Septuagint ‘You will be ever hearing, but never understanding; / you will be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’ / 10 This people’s heart has become calloused; / they hardly hear with their ears, / and they have closed their eyes]
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts,
and turn and be healed.”
11 Then I said, “For how long, Lord?”
And he answered:
“Until the cities lie ruined
and without inhabitant,
until the houses are left deserted
and the fields ruined and ravaged,
12 until the Lord has sent everyone far away
and the land is utterly forsaken.
13 And though a tenth remains in the land,
it will again be laid waste.
But as the terebinth and oak
leave stumps when they are cut down,
so the holy seed will be the stump in the land.”
Will you go out to preach the Gospel where only a tenth of the people will listen and remain?
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My $0.02;
Pentecost was clearly a new experience. The Spirit had never been "poured out" in that fashion before and the baptism/indwelling of the Spirit that the believer has now seems to be a result of the change at Pentecost. So while OT saints were saved in the same way we are (by grace, through faith) the indwelling of the Spirit seems to have been different and not necessarily permanent.
Pentecost was clearly a new experience. The Spirit had never been "poured out" in that fashion before and the baptism/indwelling of the Spirit that the believer has now seems to be a result of the change at Pentecost. So while OT saints were saved in the same way we are (by grace, through faith) the indwelling of the Spirit seems to have been different and not necessarily permanent.
OT saints were not born again if they were why did Christ have to die for our sins and provide a way to the Father? I'm not saying OT saints went to hell to burn. They were set aside. They went to paradise a place of waiting for the Messiah to come and set the captives free. David went to this place in hell and knew in advance he was going there. He wrote;
Psa 16:9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.
Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Psa 16:11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.
MB
Psa 16:9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.
Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Psa 16:11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.
MB
My answer: Not yet....
I would say they, "died," in faith.
"And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live." (Deut 30:6) How can a natural man desire the things of God unless he was born again....even in the OT as this passage clearly shows.
psalms109:31
Active Member
Ezekiel 18:32
For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!
Paul spent his life reaching dead dead sinners with the words of life and this is the teaching about him we give.
The point and reason for saying that the natural man can't understand the things of God is to tell them not to trust in themselves do not lean on their own understanding but trust in the Lord and He will direct their path.
It was never meant to be used to tell people they can't come.
We must come to Jesus just as we are as a dead sinner and it is Him who makes us alive, how by the words of Spirit and life.
To be born again we must die to self to be reborn in Christ a new creation. To be born again you must first die. There is nothing wrong with being a dead sinner, because Jesus came to save sinners who i am the worst. Death in sin is just another excuse men give you not to turn to Jesus our life in Him we become the new creation chosen before the foundation of the world. The old creation was never chosen for salvation but death destruction, so we must die to self and be reborn in Christ and we are born again by His word, that we have become messengers of.
Romans 6
Dead to Sin, Alive in Christ
6 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,[Or be rendered powerless] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.
8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.
For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!
Paul spent his life reaching dead dead sinners with the words of life and this is the teaching about him we give.
The point and reason for saying that the natural man can't understand the things of God is to tell them not to trust in themselves do not lean on their own understanding but trust in the Lord and He will direct their path.
It was never meant to be used to tell people they can't come.
We must come to Jesus just as we are as a dead sinner and it is Him who makes us alive, how by the words of Spirit and life.
To be born again we must die to self to be reborn in Christ a new creation. To be born again you must first die. There is nothing wrong with being a dead sinner, because Jesus came to save sinners who i am the worst. Death in sin is just another excuse men give you not to turn to Jesus our life in Him we become the new creation chosen before the foundation of the world. The old creation was never chosen for salvation but death destruction, so we must die to self and be reborn in Christ and we are born again by His word, that we have become messengers of.
Romans 6
Dead to Sin, Alive in Christ
6 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,[Or be rendered powerless] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.
8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.
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Without the shedding of (Christ's) blood, there is no eternal remission of sin! How could it be any simpler? Until Christ sacrificed Himself, ALL men were still in their sins. For goodness sake! Just read Hebrews, people!
Read John 5:24 Well maybe in your case the whole book of John.:wavey:
Excellent book. Fits perfectly with Hebrews. Eternal life is dependent upon belief in the resurrected Savior. Surely you've read John 3. Man must be born of the Spirit to inherit eternal life. Jesus made it clear that He must first be lifted up upon the cross "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life". He also makes it clear that the sending of the Son came before belief unto eternal life.
Again see John 5:24 Your wrong ... notice "has eternal life." People were being saved all the time my friend.
My view is OT saints were born again at the moment of their conversion. To answer your second question no one is born again without the Holy Spirit. It says in 1 John "if anyone have not the spirit he is not his.".
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