Think that the Jews and others saved by God under Old covenant were saved based upon the Cross of messiah yet to come, that He did NOThold their sins against them, but the HS only semed to come upon certain persons under the OT, like prophets and Kings, so he did not function like under NT, when he actually indwells ALL saved persons now!
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Were Old Tesament Saints Born Again?
- Thread starter Jedi Knight
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Think that the Jews and others saved by God under Old covenant were saved based upon the Cross of messiah yet to come, that He did NOThold their sins against them, but the HS only semed to come upon certain persons under the OT, like prophets and Kings, so he did not function like under NT, when he actually indwells ALL saved persons now!
Conversion meaning by faith? So do you believe they received the indwelling HOly Spirit then?
If I understand your post... you are saying no one can be born again without the spirit and that OT saints are born again just as we are now?
can god save you by remitting all of your sins commited, yet not have you born again?
Were people getting born again before the HS came to earth as he did to establish the Church Age?
Correct.:wavey:
So are you saying that men could seek god without the Holy Spirit? Think that through....remember none seek after God.
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No, rather that the Old Covenant believers were regenerated by God and saved, but were not indwelt by the HS like we are today...
This is hard to understand for me, as do know that NONE are saved apart from the will of God being exercised towards them first, but also have the NT teaching that the HS had not come to be in them until pentacost!
I disagree.......I believe scripture teaches clearly one cannot be regenerate "AKA Born Again" without the Holy Spirit.
Ok, I am trying to figure the difference out from the NT and OT! I was just making sure I understood your post!
Try to remember this scripture. Romans 8:9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Part of the challenge with this question is that being born again is exclusive language of the new covenant.
However, there are many examples of conversion--men starting out one way and finishing dramatically changed.
The Archangel
However, there are many examples of conversion--men starting out one way and finishing dramatically changed.
The Archangel
What you see at Pentecost is like in the OT times.......the Spirit came upon them....power from on high "remember Samson". OT saints experienced this at times in the Lords service. Not speaking in tongues necessarily but STRENGTH,WISDOM,PROPHESY etc. Jesus had the Holy Spirit descend upon him too when he started his public ministry. King David in Psalm 51 asked God not to take away His Holy Spirt.....not his salvation but He remembered what happened to Saul.....Lost that anointing for service "ministry".
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Indeed.......how about progressive revelation of an old principal.
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Progressive revelation is indeed an important concept in biblical theology. But, I would argue that the new covenant "Regeneration" and "Born again" language is intended to show something completely different from the Old Covenant. And, I think Galatians makes that very case.
Was there something akin to being "born again" in the Old Testament?????? I don't know that I'd say "yes," but I wouldn't say "no." That said, I think we do see conversion, a heart-change in the lives of many people.
The Archangel
I half agree with ya....that ok?:smilewinkgrin:
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Where?
I would think it's quite the opposite:
But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, so also it is now. Gal 4:29
[add] Left off this one:
Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. Gal 4:28
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Are you referring to being regenerated as in 'born again from above'? Seems some here are including Pentecost, indwelling, etc. and it's a little confusing.
Was there something better about OT people than NT people that made it not necessary for them to be 'born again from above'?
God doesn't change. Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. He wasn't implementing a 'new' thing in Jn 3:3-8, He was revealing a mystery from of old, something heretofore not known.
Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith Jehovah. Isa 54:1 [Gal 4:26,27]
26 even the mystery which hath been hid for ages and generations: but now hath it been manifested to his saints,
27 to whom God was pleased to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Col 1
13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them);
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh:
29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Ro 2
1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what is the profit of circumcision?
2 Much every way: first of all, that they were intrusted with the oracles of God. Ro 3
who are Israelites; whose is the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ as concerning the flesh, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. Ro 9
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JESUS, "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
Is there a chance that Adam can be born again and see the kingdom of God, that is to sit down with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of God?
From what moment would the man (Adam) need to be born again?
A. And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
B. And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
C. All the above.
Is there a chance that Adam can be born again and see the kingdom of God, that is to sit down with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of God?
From what moment would the man (Adam) need to be born again?
A. And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
B. And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
C. All the above.
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
I let that reference go without further explanation, and I probably shouldn't have.
I'm referring to Paul's reference to the law as a "school master." In the Old Covenant, such a school master was necessary. In the New Covenant, the school master, while a profitable study to be sure, isn't necessary because the law is written on our hearts.
So, that's what I mean when I say Galatians describes a great difference between the Old and New Covenant.
Thanks for pointing out my lack of explanation.
Blessings,
The Archangel
convicted1
Guest
Under the Law, God dwelt in the tabernacle; under Grace, He dwells in the soul of man. Under the Law, there was a rememberance of sin from year-to-year, thus the need for the yearly sacrifice; under Grace, our sins are blooted out for eternity, never to be brought up before us ever again. Under the Law, men had to keep it; under Grace, He keeps us. Under the Law, the Spirit moved upon them to do certain tasks, under Grace, He moved in to stay. The Law was a covenant addressing the flesh; Grace addresses the soul.
The Grace Covenant is set up upon better promises, because the first wasn't faultless, seeing that it was weak according to the flesh. If the first (Law) had been faultless, there would have been no need for the second(Grace).
The Grace Covenant is set up upon better promises, because the first wasn't faultless, seeing that it was weak according to the flesh. If the first (Law) had been faultless, there would have been no need for the second(Grace).
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