Were Old Tesament Saints Born Again?

[Jedi Knight]

Matthew 22:43 He said to them, "Then how does David IN THE SPIRIT call Him 'Lord,' saying, Romans 8:9 However, you are not in the flesh but IN THE SPIRIT, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the SPIRIT OF CHRIST, he does not belong to Him. Peter said that the SPIRIT OF CHRIST IN THEM 1 Peter 1:11...... speaking of OT saints. Its like math.:wavey:

 

[psalms109:31]

Psalm 51:11
Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me.

I praise God we do not have to pray that or cry that out ours is permanent. No one had received the Holy Spirit permanent until Jesus is glorified.


John 7:39
By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

Acts 19

19 While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2 and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[a] you believed?”

They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”

3 So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”

“John’s baptism,” they replied.

4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. 7 There were about twelve men in all.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Psalm 51:11
Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me.

I praise God we do not have to pray that or cry that out ours is permanent.

So was David's........he saw what happened to King Saul when he disobeyed and didn't want to loose that anointing on his life too.

 

[psalms109:31]

So was David's........he saw what happened to King Saul when he disobeyed and didn't want to loose that anointing on his life too.

I can't give you any clearer scripture than i did. We can't lose the Holy Spirit, but David was afraid and knew He could.. What was saul anointed by when he became King?

1 Samuel 10:1
Then Samuel took a flask of olive oil and poured it on Saul’s head and kissed him, saying, “Has not the Lord anointed you ruler over his inheritance?

11 The word of the Lord came to me: 12 “Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says:

“‘You were the seal of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
carnelian, chrysolite and emerald,
topaz, onyx and jasper,
lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.
Your settings and mountings were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.
14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.

 

[The Archangel]

So was David's........he saw what happened to King Saul when he disobeyed and didn't want to loose that anointing on his life too.

You are arguing, then, that David's indwelling of the Spirit was permanent?

I don't know that I agree. But, for the sake of the discussion, and for my sake--since I've not heard a specific argument for this before--could you detail your thoughts and state, specifically, why you think this is the case.

I'm simply curious as to your position and how you reach it.

The Archangel

 

[michael-acts17:11]

I think you're mixing up things--especially conflating two separate issues.

Abraham's faith being counted as righteousness was a separate from receiving the promise of many descendants.

Abraham did not see all of his descendants, but he did receive what might be referred to as "justification." That justification was something he had then and there. Isaac, in a sense, was the downpayment on the fulfilment of the promise.

These are two separate issues.

The Archangel

The promises spoken of in Hebrews are not speaking of the promise of physical descendants, they speak of spiritual descendants(the Church/Body of Christ) through Christ as the seed of Abraham through whom the promises are fulfilled. The promises are spiritual promises; referring to all who are true Israel through Christ, which also supports my position.

The promise of eternal life could not, was not, will never be fulfilled in the law. Salvation only comes through the New Covenant by the blood of the Perfect Sacrifice. The promises were only fulfilled in, through, & by Christ. No Salvation until Christ's sacrifice.


Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.(Galatians 3:16-19)

And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Galatians 3:29)

And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. (Hebrews 9:15)

Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. (Romans 9:6-8)

In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; (Titus 1:2)

 

[The Archangel]

The promises spoken of in Hebrews are not speaking of the promise of physical descendants, they speak of spiritual descendants(the Church/Body of Christ) through Christ as the seed of Abraham through whom the promises are fulfilled. The promises are spiritual promises; referring to all who are true Israel through Christ, which also supports my position.

The promise of eternal life could not, was not, will never be fulfilled in the law. Salvation only comes through the New Covenant by the blood of the Perfect Sacrifice. The promises were only fulfilled in, through, & by Christ. No Salvation until Christ's sacrifice.

So then, Abraham, Moses, David, Elijah were lost?

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.(Galatians 3:16-19)

What's the point you're trying to make by quoting this passage?

And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Galatians 3:29)

What's the point you're trying to make by quoting this passage?

And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. (Hebrews 9:15)

What's the point you're trying to make by quoting this passage?

Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. (Romans 9:6-8)

What's the point you're trying to make by quoting this passage?

In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; (Titus 1:2)

What's the point you're trying to make by quoting this passage?

The Archangel

 

[Jedi Knight]

You are arguing, then, that David's indwelling of the Spirit was permanent?

I don't know that I agree. But, for the sake of the discussion, and for my sake--since I've not heard a specific argument for this before--could you detail your thoughts and state, specifically, why you think this is the case.

I'm simply curious as to your position and how you reach it.

The Archangel

Hey Arch,can you start by the scriptures I posted last? Pick one and we can kick it around a tad.

 

[Jedi Knight]

What was saul anointed by when he became King?

1 Samuel 10:1
Then Samuel took a flask of olive oil and poured it on Saul’s head and kissed him, saying, “Has not the Lord anointed you ruler over his inheritance?

11 The word of the Lord came to me: 12 “Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says:

This was simply an outward ceremony of a spiritual reality. Like Baptism is an outward show of a spiritual reality to the believer in Christ.

 

[The Archangel]

Hey Arch,can you start by the scriptures I posted last? Pick one and we can kick it around a tad.

This:

Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question, 42 saying, “What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?” They said to him, “The son of David.” 43 He said to them, “How is it then that David, in the Spirit, calls him Lord, saying,

44 “‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at my right hand,
until I put your enemies under your feet”’?

45 If then David calls him Lord, how is he his son?” 46 And no one was able to answer him a word, nor from that day did anyone dare to ask him any more questions. (Matthew 22:41-46, ESV)
​

This:

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you. (Romans 8:1-11, ESV)

​

This:

Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully, 11 inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories. 12 It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look. (1 Peter 1:10-12, ESV)
​

Sure! What are you intending to convey by quoting these texts, or each individual text?


The Archangel

 

[Jedi Knight]

This:

Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question, 42 saying, “What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?” They said to him, “The son of David.” 43 He said to them, “How is it then that David, in the Spirit, calls him Lord, saying,
44 “‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at my right hand,
until I put your enemies under your feet”’?


45 If then David calls him Lord, how is he his son?” 46 And no one was able to answer him a word, nor from that day did anyone dare to ask him any more questions. (Matthew 22:41-46, ESV)
​

This:

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you. (Romans 8:1-11, ESV)

​

This:

Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully, 11 inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories. 12 It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look. (1 Peter 1:10-12, ESV)
​

Sure! What are you intending to convey by quoting these texts, or each individual text?


The Archangel

​

Well I thought they showed what I was conveying but I will try. 1st David said "IN THE SPIRIT".......Romans said your "IN THE SPIRIT". What does Romans describe as IN THE SPIRIT? 2nd Peter said that the SPIRIT OF CHRIST IN THEM as does Romans"THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST IN YOU". Also look at the argument Paul reiterates about that NONE SEEK after God. Do dead men chase after God? Do you believe all were spiritually dead in the OT? My point is Paul argued from the OT perspective as well to reiterate the same thing in his writings.

 

[The Archangel]

Well I thought they showed what I was conveying but I will try. 1st David said "IN THE SPIRIT".......Romans said your "IN THE SPIRIT". What does Romans describe as IN THE SPIRIT? 2nd Peter said that the SPIRIT OF CHRIST IN THEM as does Romans"THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST IN YOU". Also look at the argument Paul reiterates about that NONE SEEK after God. Do dead men chase after God? Do you believe all were spiritually dead in the OT? My point is Paul argued from the OT perspective as well to reiterate the same thing in his writings.

Let me ask the hard question: Is the point of these passages the "in the spirit" idea?

For instance, is Jesus (and Matthew) intending to emphasize the "in the Spirit" idea? Is that the main point of the passage?

Is Paul in Romans 8 intending to argue the Old Testament or is he addressing the 1st Century audience in Rome?

In the Peter passage, is Peter indicating a perpetual indwelling of the Spirit, or is he arguing for the idea of the inspiration of the Holy Spirit in the prophets' writing?

Those are the first questions to deal with.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[Jedi Knight]

Let me ask the hard question: Is the point of these passages the "in the spirit" idea?

For instance, is Jesus (and Matthew) intending to emphasize the "in the Spirit" idea? Is that the main point of the passage?

No it's not but sometimes I believe it's a clue. Kinda like the Angel of the Lord in the OT. No one called the Angel of the Lord "Jesus" but when you look at situation after situation a strong argument can be made that he was the preincarnate Christ. That make sense?

 

[psalms109:31]

Old Testament messengers had the Holy Spirit helping them, but not permanently for the same reason for us permanently. Paul spent His life seeking them, because no one seek God. They were messenger being sent out, but it does not mean that those who heard the Gospel of their salvation having believed were not being included.

Ezekiel 33 :
12 “Therefore, son of man, say to your people, ‘If someone who is righteous disobeys, that person’s former righteousness will count for nothing. And if someone who is wicked repents, that person’s former wickedness will not bring condemnation. The righteous person who sins will not be allowed to live even though they were formerly righteous.’ 13 If I tell a righteous person that they will surely live, but then they trust in their righteousness and do evil, none of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered; they will die for the evil they have done. 14 And if I say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die,’ but they then turn away from their sin and do what is just and right— 15 if they give back what they took in pledge for a loan, return what they have stolen, follow the decrees that give life, and do no evil—that person will surely live; they will not die. 16 None of the sins that person has committed will be remembered against them. They have done what is just and right; they will surely live.

17 “Yet your people say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ But it is their way that is not just. 18 If a righteous person turns from their righteousness and does evil, they will die for it. 19 And if a wicked person turns away from their wickedness and does what is just and right, they will live by doing so. 20 Yet you Israelites say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ But I will judge each of you according to your own ways.”

James 5:20
remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

1 Peter 4:8
Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.

James 3:1
[Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

2 Corinthians 5 :
16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

The need of preachers bringing the good news is the reason behind no one seeks God, and none are righteous, because Jesus came to save sinners.

 

[Jedi Knight]

In the Peter passage, is Peter indicating a perpetual indwelling of the Spirit, or is he arguing for the idea of the inspiration of the Holy Spirit in the prophets' writing?

The Later but unless you skim over it without noticing that the SPIRIT OF CHRIST IN THEM. Where was Christ Spirit......upon them?

 

[convicted1]

There are several problems in this statement, and I point them out simply for edification purposes--and to make you think and interact more deeply with the text.

You state: "Abraham, and everyone who made animal sacrifices"...had to do so yearly...

This is not necessarily so. You are viewing Abraham anachronistically through the Law of Exodus, Leviticus, etc. We know Abraham sacrificed, that's pretty much without debate. However, we don't see his sacrifices bringing "righteousness" to him. We clearly see Abraham's faith being counted as righteousness.

1st off, thanks for the quick reply to my former post....:thumbs: Maybe I painted with too broad of a brush when I spoke about Abraham. Yet we both agree that he did perform animal sacrifices. Now, we also both agree that the animal sacrificies were OT types of the Messiah to come and shed His blood on the cross. So with the shedding of these animal sacrificies under the OT, and especially the Law, there wasn't a blotting out of their sins, just "stayed" for a while, and then another sacrifice was needed. The Law was a works based covenant where they had to do certain things, or they died. They had to keep the Law in order to be in "good standing" with the Lord. All of the things that they did that pertained to the Law, were types of Christ. IOW, the Law pointed to Him. The Law was their "schoolmaster", if you will, and it brought them to Christ, but the Law could put them in Christ. There was no justification under the Law, just condemnation. There was a remembrance of their sins under the Law, but under the Grace Covenant, God said their sins and iniquities will I remember no more(Hebrews 8:10, 10:16).

Now, in the performance of the sacrificial ritual under the Law, it was not understood that the sins were merely "pushed forward" for another year. Indeed, the text says that "atonement" was made.

Either way you put it, there was no blotting out of sins under the Law. Whether we say their sins were "stayed", or "pushed ahead", the end result was still the same.....they had to make another sacrifice.

Of course, we learn later--In Hebrews 10--that the blood of bulls and goats cannot and do not take a way sin. However, we must still deal with the Old Testament saying that "atonement" was made. (More on this below).

All of these atonements made under the Law, were only temporary, and another one was necessary at a later date.

You state: "They were looking to the coming Messiah...whereas, we look back."

This is a fairly common misconception, although there are elements of this thought line that are not wrong. However, the thought line suggests that Abraham was trusting in Christ for his salvation, as were Moses, David, Daniel, etc. None of these men, or their contemporaries, were trusting in a God-Man from Nazareth named Jesus. Rather, all these men, were trusting in God--Yahweh--and living their lives according to His word. For Abraham this was trusting in the promise that God gave him. For Moses and David, this trust was expressed through right, lawful living while making "atonement" for their sins through the sacrificial system.

Look closely at those men you just mentioned here. All of these were types of OT Christs, in that they interacted directly with God, and He spoke with them verbally. They were the "go betweens", and God spoke to them, and they, in turn, spoke with the children of Israel, and told them what God told them they must do(a picture of Christ conversing with the Church, if I ever saw one).

Now, how does all this fit together? How is "atonement" made in the Old Testament while Hebrews says the blood of bulls and goats can't take away sin?

Simply put: CHRIST. OK, we can all say "well, DUH!" now. But, here's how this works, according to Romans 3:

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. (Romans 3:21-26, ESV)​

We're all familiar with this passage. But, the answer to the dilemma at hand is in verse 25 and following.

And I will use a verse that I use as a username in a couple other christian message boards: Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.


Christ is, was, and forever will be, the fulfilling, ending, and abolishing of the law. He ushered in the Grace Covenant when He was seated on the right hand of the Father in glory.

What we see here is that God put forward Christ as a propitiation for one major purpose--to show His [God's] righteousness. Why would He need to do so? Because He passed over former sins in His divine forbearance.

Now, what does that mean?! It means that God counted the blood of bulls and goats as "atonement" and that He counted Abraham's faith as righteousness without punishing their sin. In other words, Abraham, Moses, David, etc. were never held to account for their sins. God counted the sins as forgiven, even though they weren't.

I agree. But, the atonement that the blood of bulls and goats couldn't do away with sins, only appease it for a while. Christ's blood blots them out forever.

So, the primary reason Jesus came was to pay for those sins that God passed over in the past. This was absolutely necessary because God simply cannot "write off" sins. He can't say, "that's OK, don't worry about it, I'll just let it go." If He were to do so, He would cease to be God. All sin is against God and God, in His righteousness and justice is "required" to punish sin. Therefore, Jesus is the ultimate payment for the "passed over" sins of the Old Testament.

Agreed. The sacrifical system under the OT, and especially the Law, was pointing them to Christ.

It is as if God put the sins of the "Old Testament Saints" on His credit card and paid the bill in Christ on the cross. It is in this way, and only this way, the sacrifices of the Law could be said to make "atonement." God could count the sins as atoned for since He knew He'd make payment in Christ.

This expresses one inescapable truth: There is no injustice with God. Every sin will be paid for--either by the sinner in hell for all eternity or in Christ on the cross.

Blessings,

The Archangel

Agree with this. God had them through His Grace, knowing that Christ was coming to pay their sin debt in full.

 

[The Archangel]

No it's not but sometimes I believe it's a clue. Kinda like the Angel of the Lord in the OT. No one called the Angel of the Lord "Jesus" but when you look at situation after situation a strong argument can be made that he was the preincarnate Christ. That make sense?

Yes and no. "The Angel of the Lord" does some very God-like things--received worship, etc. That's not a "clue," per se, it's outright demonstration of Who He is.

And, in some sense, The Angel of the Lord was not Jesus. Jesus is the God-Man. The Angel of the Lord was the second person of the Trinity. He would later become the God-Man and will be so for all eternity.

So, there is a correlation in concept here, but not in actuality.

The Later but unless you skim over it without noticing that the SPIRIT OF CHRIST IN THEM. Where was Christ Spirit......upon them?

And, we must ask, for what purpose? Peter makes the case it was for prophesying. Were there other reasons? Undoubtedly. But, in the instance of the 1 Peter passage, Peter is only stating one reason--and, I might add, it's not the same reason you're arguing while quoting his epistle.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[Jedi Knight]

Yes and no. "The Angel of the Lord" does some very God-like things--received worship, etc. That's not a "clue," per se, it's outright demonstration of Who He is.

And, in some sense, The Angel of the Lord was not Jesus. Jesus is the God-Man. The Angel of the Lord was the second person of the Trinity. He would later become the God-Man and will be so for all eternity.

So, there is a correlation in concept here, but not in actuality.



And, we must ask, for what purpose? Peter makes the case it was for prophesying. Were there other reasons? Undoubtedly. But, in the instance of the 1 Peter passage, Peter is only stating one reason--and, I might add, it's not the same reason you're arguing while quoting his epistle.

Blessings,

The Archangel

Ok....agree to disagree.

 

[The Archangel]

1st off, thanks for the quick reply to my former post....:thumbs: Maybe I painted with too broad of a brush when I spoke about Abraham. Yet we both agree that he did perform animal sacrifices. Now, we also both agree that the animal sacrificies were OT types of the Messiah to come and shed His blood on the cross. So with the shedding of these animal sacrificies under the OT, and especially the Law, there wasn't a blotting out of their sins, just "stayed" for a while, and then another sacrifice was needed. The Law was a works based covenant where they had to do certain things, or they died. They had to keep the Law in order to be in "good standing" with the Lord. All of the things that they did that pertained to the Law, were types of Christ. IOW, the Law pointed to Him. The Law was their "schoolmaster", if you will, and it brought them to Christ, but the Law could put them in Christ. There was no justification under the Law, just condemnation. There was a remembrance of their sins under the Law, but under the Grace Covenant, God said their sins and iniquities will I remember no more(Hebrews 8:10, 10:16).

Either way you put it, there was no blotting out of sins under the Law. Whether we say their sins were "stayed", or "pushed ahead", the end result was still the same.....they had to make another sacrifice.

All of these atonements made under the Law, were only temporary, and another one was necessary at a later date.

But, the text of the Old Testament says atonement was made. That is inescapable, unless you want to claim the Bible contradicts itself.

Look closely at those men you just mentioned here. All of these were types of OT Christs, in that they interacted directly with God, and He spoke with them verbally. They were the "go betweens", and God spoke to them, and they, in turn, spoke with the children of Israel, and told them what God told them they must do(a picture of Christ conversing with the Church, if I ever saw one).

So? How does that serve the discussion? These men, though types of Christ (but in a different way than you are intending to show) were still under the Law.

And I will use a verse that I use as a username in a couple other christian message boards: Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

I'm not arguing that righteousness comes from the Law.

Christ is, was, and forever will be, the fulfilling, ending, and abolishing of the law. He ushered in the Grace Covenant when He was seated on the right hand of the Father in glory.

I don't think "abolishing" is the correct term. Christ Himself said He did not come to abolish the Law, but, instead, He came to fulfill it.

He lived the perfect life under the Law that we couldn't live and He died, as a substitutionary sacrifice, the death we owed God.

I agree. But, the atonement that the blood of bulls and goats couldn't do away with sins, only appease it for a while. Christ's blood blots them out forever.

Again, the problem is that the Old Testament seems to think that it did atone for sins.

But, as I've stated earlier, had Christ never been planned by God, those sacrifices would not have atoned for anything.

Agreed. The sacrifical system under the OT, and especially the Law, was pointing them to Christ.

Again, though....they weren't expecting "Jesus" from Nazareth. I've argued, somewhat strenuously, that the primary purpose of the Old Testament Sacrificial System was to create the context in which Christ's death would have had the intended meaning.

Agree with this. God had them through His Grace, knowing that Christ was coming to pay their sin debt in full.

Do you intend to say that God had already "planned" Christ? If so, I agree. If, on the other hand, you intend to say that the Old Testament Saints were expecting Christ to pay their sin debt, then, no, I don't agree.

The Archangel

 

[convicted1]

But, the text of the Old Testament says atonement was made. That is inescapable, unless you want to claim the Bible contradicts itself.

Thanks again for the civil debate...:thumbs: ....you cause me to dig a little deeper everytime we converse, and that's always a good thing....:thumbs:
Okay, let me take a another stab at this. It's true that the animal's blood which was sacrificed atoned for their sins, but not permanently. It needed done on a continual basis until Jesus did it once for all time. Does that clear things up? Yes? No? Maybe? Possibly? LOL? hehehehehe

So? How does that serve the discussion? These men, though types of Christ (but in a different way than you are intending to show) were still under the Law.

These men you mentioned were the special of the special of the OT in that God hand picked them to carry out His desires amongst His people. Yet, they had to make animal sacrifies for their sins as well. Their sins were atoned for, yes, but never blotted out by the blood of a bull and/or goat.

I'm not arguing that righteousness comes from the Law.

:thumbs:

I don't think "abolishing" is the correct term. Christ Himself said He did not come to abolish the Law, but, instead, He came to fulfill it.

He lived the perfect life under the Law that we couldn't live and He died, as a substitutionary sacrifice, the death we owed God.

Bear with me, this may get a little lengthy....hopefully it won't.

Col. 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

The handwritting of ordinances that was against us was the Law. The Law could never justify, on condemn.

2 Cor. 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

The ministration of death written and engraven in stone is the Law. The ministration of the Spirit is the Grace Covenant. Jesus did away with the Law and ushered in the Grace Covenant. Jesus didn't die, was buried, and arose just to have the Law alongside the Grace Covenant. There's only one existing covenant now betwixt God and His children, Grace.

Gal. 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Under the Law, they were in bondage to it. If they didn't keep it, they died. Under Grace, when we sin, Grace much more abounds. Grace is merciful unto us, God children, than the Law was.

Gal. 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

There was no faith, or very little of it, under the Law, because it was a works based covenant. They had to do things to stay in "good standing" with God. Not so under Grace. Grace is what keeps us now.

Gal. 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Jesus bore our curse for us, in that only He could truly atone for our sins in a manner that they would never be brought up before us again. Under the Law, they were remembered....or rather, brought back before them again. Christ abolished this when He hung, bled, died, and arose, and ascended back to the Father.

Again, the problem is that the Old Testament seems to think that it did atone for sins.

Never permanently atoned for them, however.

But, as I've stated earlier, had Christ never been planned by God, those sacrifices would not have atoned for anything.

Jesus was always the plan.

Again, though....they weren't expecting "Jesus" from Nazareth. I've argued, somewhat strenuously, that the primary purpose of the Old Testament Sacrificial System was to create the context in which Christ's death would have had the intended meaning.

Expound a little further, please. The way I understand things, is that the shedding of blood via animals was that death was the only remedy for sin. God gave them this system until He would send His Son to atone for our sins via His shed blood.....and it had to be innocent blood, too. That's why only animals would suffice under the context of the Law's sacrificial system.

Do you intend to say that God had already "planned" Christ? If so, I agree. If, on the other hand, you intend to say that the Old Testament Saints were expecting Christ to pay their sin debt, then, no, I don't agree.

The Archangel

Jesus was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. He was the only plan, and wasn't a fallback, or plan B.