Liberal Christianity vs. Seeker Friendly Christanity

[Yeshua1]

And what is worse and far more dangerous than Calvinism is Open theology and the idea that God learns. Heretical in its purist form.

Also som ewho post here who regard man as totally freewill, that man freely decides to get saved or not!
That no original Sin, born innocent, no effects from the fall!

neither calvinists nor Arminians agree with that!

 

[Yeshua1]

Well, there you go folks, this is the fruit of Calvinism. Icon says it is God's will that multitudes be lost, and he puts a smiley face on it. Horrific.

Calvinism says the EXACT OPPOSITE of what scripture says, the Bible says that God is not willing that any should perish.

2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

There is a lot of false teachings in the world, but I have never seen anything worse than Calvinism. Calvinism portrays God as an evil monster who delights in destroying men.

IF God really wanted to save all, and the cross was sufficient to save all sinners, why aren't all then saved? is the will and power of God not enough to get that done, or is there something that not even he can overcome?

AH, human free will, right?

 

[Winman]

IF God really wanted to save all, and the cross was sufficient to save all sinners, why aren't all then saved? is the will and power of God not enough to get that done, or is there something that not even he can overcome?

AH, human free will, right?

Why did you ask? You already knew the answer.

The difference between you and me is that I can show scripture that says God is not willing that any should perish, but all men come to repentance. I can show scripture that says God does not delight in the death of the wicked.

I can even show scripture where God himself says men have their own voluntary (free) will.

You, you just run your mouth. Only an idiot would listen to you.

You just keep teaching false doctrine, someday you will stand before God and answer for all the garbage you constantly spew out.

 

[mactx]

If something is scriptural it should have no other name nor need any other name that biblical or scriptural.
That a human has their name attached should give one pause at the beginning.

 

[Yeshua1]

Why did you ask? You already knew the answer.

The difference between you and me is that I can show scripture that says God is not willing that any should perish, but all men come to repentance. I can show scripture that says God does not delight in the death of the wicked.

I can even show scripture where God himself says men have their own voluntary (free) will.

You, you just run your mouth. Only an idiot would listen to you.

You just keep teaching false doctrine, someday you will stand before God and answer for all the garbage you constantly spew out.

Do you hold that the anger of the lord is kindled/reserved unto the ungodly/ bible does!

that God said that he would withhhold the truths of the kingdom for some, and gave that to his own? bible does!

that there is a difference between God saving His own, and aloowing sinners to stay as they are?

 

[Winman]

Do you hold that the anger of the lord is kindled/reserved unto the ungodly/ bible does!

that God said that he would withhhold the truths of the kingdom for some, and gave that to his own? bible does!

that there is a difference between God saving His own, and aloowing sinners to stay as they are?

Yeshua's parents had great hopes for him, he had a rocket arm. His older brother was a skilled hitter.

But somewhere along the way something went wrong...

 

[jbh28]

Um, this seems to be really off topic. Some claim to be able to understand the Bible but clearly can't understand the rules of this board. sad. It looked like an interesting topic before someone had to bring in another topic.

 

[Van]

Pitchback

strange! wesley geisler and others hold to arminian theology regarding God, yet they do NOT hold to open theism for God!

the god of open theism NOT the calvinist nor the arminian God, as that God is NOT biblcal, as God is not all knowing, and has agreed to learn and grow with his creation!

Do you never tire of posting falsehoods and absurdity? God either causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass. This is what the bible teaches. Calvinism on the other hand teaches God predestines (ordains) whatsoever comes to pass. Thus Closed theism. If you think God allows men to make choices between life and death, as scripture teaches, then you are an open theist, just like all Arminians, and others that understand we are responsible for the choice between life and death. Now our faith may be very flawed, for it is God alone who either credits our faith as righteousness or concludes our faith is not from the heart or is half hearted.

 

[Revmitchell]

IF God really wanted to save all, and the cross was sufficient to save all sinners, why aren't all then saved?

Just because He wanted all to be saved does not automatically mean that all have to be saved. I want my kids to do and be a lot of things. But I give them some room to make their won choices. Doing that does not mean that I did not want them to do something else.

is the will and power of God not enough to get that done, or is there something that not even he can overcome?

AH, human free will, right?

This is a strawman.

 

[Alive in Christ]

RevMitchll posted...

And what is worse and far more dangerous than Calvinism is Open theology and the idea that God learns.

What!!!

God (((LEARNS))) !!!

I have never heard of that. I am assuming it is the ultra liberals.???...

 

[Iconoclast]

Van

Yet another Calvinist misrepresenting my views, making false assertions and simply muddying the waters.

You claim this,however upon closer examination we will see it is just another believer exposing this as the error that it is.

The phrase "milk of the gospel" does not appear in scripture, but the concept does.

Like all who teach falsely ...when caught, you now seek to shift from your position and word things in a way that tries to look reasonable...

The teaching that you offer..."milk of the gospel does not exist"...and is no where to be found.

New Christitans are instructed to desire the Sincere milk of the word. Christians alone can welcome and understand the "milk" of the word,and later on, the meat of the word.

The unsaved cannot welcome ,or receive the word as you falsely teach.
Did you teach that in this post???Nope...you changed what you have posted many times before.....You teach that unsaved natural man can receive the "milk of the word"...despite your wriggling around in this post.

You have taught the error this way...everytime you have posted it, until you were called on it...HERE YOU GO:

Lets take 1 Corinthians 2:14. This is cited by Calvinism as supporting the idea of total spiritual inability of natural, unregenerate men of flesh. And no matter how many times it is pointed out that the verse in context says the exact opposite, this nonsense is propounded again and again, and defended by ad homenium's such as you lack "spiritual eyes."

The natural person does not accept the "things of the Spirit of God." Now does this refer to the things which are spiritual meat or spiritual milk, or both? Now lets read on and see what is crystal clear in scripture. Whatever "things" are in view are things understood only by those who have been indwelt with the Holy Spirit, for the spiritual person has the mind of Christ.

Now we reach the verse which makes clear only spiritual meat was in view in verse 14, not spiritual milk. 1 Corinthians 3:1, But I, brethren, could not address you as spiritual people. So Paul now addresses them as men of flesh. Therefore the passage says the natural man can understand spiritual milk, the opposite of what Calvinism claims.

That is the error that you have posted and most likely will post again:thumbs: You deny 1 cor 2:14 and supply your "view" .

1 Corinthians 3:2 refers to some spiritual food as meat and more fundamental spiritual food as milk. The new Christians, babies in Christ, could not understand the meat so Paul taught them using the milk spiritual food.

Here is how you have posted this error over and over again, I just picked one example as you repeat the error ,over and over.

Lets take 1 Corinthians 2:14. This is cited by Calvinism as supporting the idea of total spiritual inability of natural, unregenerate men of flesh. And no matter how many times it is pointed out that the verse in context says the exact opposite, this nonsense is propounded again and again, and defended by ad homenium's such as you lack "spiritual eyes."

The natural person does not accept the "things of the Spirit of God." Now does this refer to the things which are spiritual meat or spiritual milk, or both? Now lets read on and see what is crystal clear in scripture. Whatever "things" are in view are things understood only by those who have been indwelt with the Holy Spirit, for the spiritual person has the mind of Christ.

Now we reach the verse which makes clear only spiritual meat was in view in verse 14, not spiritual milk. 1 Corinthians 3:1, But I, brethren, could not address you as spiritual people. So Paul now addresses them as men of flesh. Therefore the passage says the natural man can understand spiritual milk, the opposite of what Calvinism claims.

Hebrews 6:1 teaches of "elementary principles" about Christ that are learned by immature Christians. And Hebrews 5:2 refers to those "elementary principles" and equates them with "milk."

This verse is addressed to believers
Thus, even though "the milk or fundamentals of the gospel" does not appear as an exact phrase, the concept that men of flesh and babies in Christ can understand milk is in the bible (1 Corinthians 3:2),

Wrong

 

[Iconoclast]

Winman

Or are you now Nostrawinmandamus.....I write to AIC and put the wavey guy :wavey: in the post...and you have seen this as a symbol of Implying AIC is "lost and going to hell".......I did not know the wavey guy was a symbol of the white throne judgement:wavey: You have special abilities Winman...unique insights:laugh:

No, it equates to you implying that AIC is lost and going to hell, and so you wave goodbye to him.

You delight in believing you are elect and others are lost, you are cold hearted and uncaring like the false god you worship.

This is coming from a dark place inside of you Winman.Get control of yourself. So....once again ,You confess that you do not worship the God that I worship......I did not think so.....so this comes as no surprise:thumbsup:

I deny that it is God's WILL that any should perish.

Yes....and sadly you deny many verses on all kinds of topics!

2 Peter 3:9 is a very simple verse that even a child could understand. Calvinists of old understood it properly.

They know that none of those spoken of in 2 Pet.3.....are going to perish...not one of them . God is long-suffering to us-ward
Not WILLING THat ANY Perish.....not one of them will perish.

Earlier Calvinists did not twist and wrest the scriptures as you do

.
They understood as I do.You do not see it.You cannot.

And I just showed you Calvinists that affirm that is exactly what scripture says

.
You have not shown any such thing.You still do not get what any of us are saying.

You imply that God is foolish and could not simply have said "the elect".

Actually...He did...
1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Then why did Jesus tell us to pray for God's will to be done on earth if it is already being done? Nonsensical.

As the gospel converts men and the kingdom spreads God's will is being done on earth,as it is in heaven.We pray for the blessings of the gospel finding the sheep.

Trust me, the elect in heaven do not agree with your doctrine.

Each and everyone do...in fact they know it much clearer now.

It is true that God will judge the world in righteousness, but God takes no delight in the death of the wicked. It is God's will that all repent.

God does not delight in the death of the wicked....he wept over Jerusalem,and yet...he will cast them into second death.

You should study some moderate Calvinists, they did not wrest the scriptures like the hard core hyper-Calvinists you listen to.

There is the truth,and compromise.You cannot see the difference.

 

[Winman]

Winman

Or are you now Nostrawinmandamus.....I write to AIC and put the wavey guy in the post...and you have seen this as a symbol of Implying AIC is "lost and going to hell".......I did not know the wavey guy was a symbol of the white throne judgement:wavey: You have special abilities Winman...unique insights

You have been called out numerous times for implying your opponents are lost. I have a feeling I was right on the money concerning you, and I think you know that too. :thumbsup:

This is coming from a dark place inside of you Winman.Get control of yourself. So....once again ,You confess that you do not worship the God that I worship......I did not think so.....so this comes as no surprise:thumbsup:

No, it comes from seeing you imply your opponents are lost over and over again.

The funny thing is that you do not even know if you are elect. :laugh:

Yes....and sadly you deny many verses on all kinds of topics!

Calvinism is famous for changing the definitions of words, non-Cals and Arminians have no need to wrest the scriptures. When scripture says God is not willing that ANY should perish, we understand that as all men. It is you and Calvinism that must redefine this word to mean only the elect, as if God could not simply have said "the elect". You guys think people are stupid, but are fools yourselves.

They know that none of those spoken of in 2 Pet.3.....are going to perish...not one of them . God is long-suffering to us-ward
Not WILLING THat ANY Perish.....not one of them will perish.

All of those Calvinists I quoted believed 2 Peter 3:9 was speaking of all mankind, not just the elect. I will show you the source so you can see for yourself.

http://calvinandcalvinism.com/?cat=54

.

They understood as I do.You do not see it.You cannot.

They most certainly did not. They believed it was God's will that 100% of men be saved.

You have not shown any such thing.You still do not get what any of us are saying.

Any honest person knows I have shown it. Of course that excludes YOU.

Actually...He did...
1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:



As the gospel converts men and the kingdom spreads God's will is being done on earth,as it is in heaven.We pray for the blessings of the gospel finding the sheep.

Anyone that thinks God's will is being done on earth is insane, unless you believe it is God's will that men sin. Knowing you, you probably believe that very thing.

Each and everyone do...in fact they know it much clearer now.

God does not delight in the death of the wicked....he wept over Jerusalem,and yet...he will cast them into second death.


There is the truth,and compromise.You cannot see the difference.

Wow, once in a great while you speak truth. But it is buried under piles of falsehood.

 

[Winman]

Here is what Charles Simeon wrote. It is clear he believed 2 Peter 3:9 says God is not willing that ANY man (meaning 100% of all men) should perish.

He desires to save every child of man–
[“He is not willing that any should perish:” no; he would not that so much as one should ever become a monument of his indignation. This he affirms in the strongest manner; yea, and confirms his assertion with an oath: “As I live, says the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of a sinner, but rather that he should turn from his wickedness and live;”1 It is surprising, that any, after such a declaration as this, should maintain the doctrine of absolute reprobation. Were that, or any other doctrine, clearly revealed in the Holy Scriptures, I should feel it my duty to receive it with the simplicity of a little child: but to receive it merely as a deduction of human reason, an inference drawn by weak and fallible man from the doctrine of election, when the whole Scriptures uniformly declare the very reverse, is, to say the least, very dangerous, arid exceeding sinful. I know it is said of ungodly men, by St. Jude, that “they were of old ordained to this condemnation.”2 I know, also, that St. Peter says of many, that they “stumbled at the word, being disobedient, whereunto also they were appointed.”3 But it is not of individuals that these Apostles speak, but of characters. God has ordained, that they who will not receive the truth with humility shall stumble at it; and that they who will resist the faith which he has delivered to his saints, shall be left to turn the grace of God into lasciviousness, and to deny the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. And this is a wise and righteous appointment. But it is a far different thing from creating any with a fixed determination to consign them over to perdition, purely of his own arbitrary will, without any fault of theirs. Such an idea as this is directly contradicted by the assertion in my text: and by the oath which I have before mentioned; and by numberless other portions of Scripture, which can admit of no doubt. Our blessed Lord said to his hearers, “Ye will not come to me, that ye may have life”4 and to the Jews, even after they were given up to the judgments they had merited, he said, “O that thou had known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things that belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.”5 And again: “How often would I have gathered you, even as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, but ye would not.”67 The whole Scripture attests, that “God would rather that all should come to repentance and live.” He “commands all men everywhere to repent.”8 He exhorts them to it also; saying, “Turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel,”9 and he declares to all, without exception, “Him that cometh unto me, I will in no wise cast out.”10 Now shall we, in deference to human systems, set aside all these passages of holy writ? God forbid: we dare not do so: and if we cannot mark out the precise boundaries where truths of an opposite aspect meet, we are contented to say, “What I know not now, I shall know hereafter.” If we choose to speculate on divine truths, we may soon get out of our depth: but if we will practically apply them to our own souls, we shall find them as clear as we can wish. Where is the man who has not experienced more or less the strivings of God s Spirit in his soul?11 Who amongst us has not a consciousness that he has resisted those strivings;12 and that, if he had made a due improvement of them, “God would have given him more grace?”13 The truth, then, is plain: if God forbear to execute upon the world the judgments we deserve, it is not because he is indifferent about our proceedings, but because he is long-suffering towards us, and desirous, if we would improve the opportunity, to save us all. This is the true reason why “he endures, with such astonishing forbearance, the vessels of wrath who are fitted for destruction.14]

 

[Iconoclast]

I read your source already....But the scripture rules Winman...

The problem is you are a parrot trolling anti-cal sites and copying and pasting....lol

.” He “commands all men everywhere to repent.”8 He exhorts them to it also; saying, “Turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel,”9 and he declares to all, without exception, “Him that cometh unto me, I will in no wise cast out.”

HAHA....I like how he cut out the first part of jn 6:37...ALL THAT THE FATHER GIVES TO ME SHALL COME TO ME...lol

All he is speaking of is the "free offer "...you do not get it.

 

[Winman]

Here is what O. Palmer Robertson wrote;

The longsuffering of God, who does not wish any to perish (v. 9), manifests itself in the context of this covenanting word that God will maintain the whole of creation until the judgment of fire (vv. 7, 10). In the cosmic context of these verses, describing the purposes of God respecting the whole of creation (vv. 6, 7), the “desire” of God that “all” should come to repentance should be interpreted universally. The fact that God may “desire” what he has not explicitly “decreed” simply must be taken as one of those areas of God’s purposes that cannot be comprehended by the finite mind. The context would not favor the limitation of this desire to the “elect,” despite the possibility that “longsuffering to you” could be interpreted as meaning longsuffering to the believing recipients of Peter’s letter. The point of the text is not that God is longsuffering toward the elect, not willing that any of the elect should perish. The present delay of judgment on the world indicates his longsuffering to the whole of humanity, despite the fact that ultimately not all shall be saved. Cf. John Murray and N. B. Stonehouse, The Free Offer of the Gospel (Phillipsburg, n.d.) pp. 21-26.

These Calvinists did not agree with you whatsoever.

 

[Revmitchell]

.I like how he cut out the first part of jn 6:37...ALL THAT THE FATHER GIVES TO ME SHALL COME TO ME...lol

Are you assuming this must only mean that they are first given and then come only because they are given?

 

[Winman]

I read your source already....But the scripture rules Winman...

The problem is you are a parrot trolling anti-cal sites and copying and pasting....lol

That is a MODERATE CALVINIST site. The problem is that you are a HYPER Calvinist.

http://calvinandcalvinism.com/?cat=54

HAHA....I like how he cut out the first part of jn 6:37...ALL THAT THE FATHER GIVES TO ME SHALL COME TO ME...lol

All he is speaking of is the "free offer "...you do not get it.

Nevertheless, there are five pages there of Moderate Calvinists who all interpreted 2 Peter 3:9 to be speaking of 100% of mankind. The problem is that over zealous Hyper Calvinists like you have become the majority in Calvinism. But early Calvinists were far more scriptural.

 

[Iconoclast]

That is a MODERATE CALVINIST site. The problem is that you are a HYPER Calvinist.



Nevertheless, there are five pages there of Moderate Calvinists who all interpreted 2 Peter 3:9 to be speaking of 100% of mankind. The problem is that over zealous Hyper Calvinists like you have become the majority in Calvinism. But early Calvinists were far more scriptural.

I already read your source Winman.

 

[Winman]

I already read your source Winman.

NOT. If you had read it you would have known it is a Calvinist site. There are five pages on this verse alone, try reading what moderate Calvinists taught for once, might do you some good.