Were Old Testament Saints Born Again?

[Van]

Hi Darrel C, 1 Corinthians 2:6-11 supports my view of 1 Corinthians 2:14-3:3.

We agree God must provide the grace of His revelation for us to have something to put our faith in. However, this enlightening is by presenting God's Word, the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of salvation.

You say our revelation is revealed by the "Spirit of God." But this could mean (1) any of the various methods of communication such as the spoken word, the written word, visions and dreams, or (2) the supernatural alteration of our ability to understand God's revelation.
I believe the Holy Spirit reveals God via number 1. Note verse 13 where Paul "speaks" the spiritual things given to him by the Spirit of God. Thus revealing them to others, including natural men.

In summary Paul says the Natural Man cannot understand spiritual meat, the stuff where we need to be indwelt to understand with the aid of the leading of our Helper, but Natural Man can understand spiritual milk, the fundamentals of the gospel, which Paul received from the Spirit of God.

The parable (Matthew 13:1-23) is explained and thus cannot be dismissed, three of the four soils could understand the milk of the gospel. The idea is that natural man can be cultivated planted, watered and chosen. Many are called but few are chosen. The first soil had little or no cultivation, no understanding of the milk of the gospel. The other three did understand, but accepted it to various degrees. And this acceptance can take years, years of cultivation and watering.

Those that walk away, were never saved, Jesus says "I never knew you" not I knew you once, but you drifted away." Thus their faith was never credited as righteousness, and they were never put in Christ, the sanctifying work of the Spirit.

It does not matter that John was writing to believers or believers and non-believers, either way the idea is anyone who is believing according to God has been born anew. Anyone who is believing but God has not credited his or her faith has righteousness, has not been born anew.

The question is, do we not ultimately view our righteousness as not our own?

God crediting our faith as righteousness means the righteousness of our faith is not our own. God took our faith, as flawed as a dirty rag, and declared it righteous. This does not result in us being righteous. When God then puts us in Christ, the sanctifying work of the Spirit, where we undergo the circumcision of Christ, and arise in Christ a new creature, then we are perfect, holy and blameless. It is only after undergoing being born anew spiritually that we are righteous in the eyes of God.

You are not saved because Christ died. Lots of folks are in Hades, even though Jesus died as a ransom for all. You are saved because God credited your faith as righteousness and put you spiritually "in Christ" where you were washed with His blood and born anew. You have "received" the reconciliation provided by Christ's death on the cross.

All in all, I do not discount the possibility that one can believe and yet not be born again.

Certainly but that belief has not been credited as righteousness, and that person has not been put in Christ, undergone the circumcision of Christ, and arisen a new creation. You are describing the Matthew 7 guys, that Christ never knew.

God's inspired words were written down, using the grammar embedded in the spelling of the words, i.e. the syntax and inflection. Now we in modern times think the Greek scholars have a handle on the grammar and thus are able to convey the intended message according to both the grammar and the word meanings. If a person alters the grammar in order to change the message to be consistent with their own doctrine, they are making the Word of God to no effect.

 

[DHK]

Abraham was in Abraham's bosom, for no one had ascended to heaven, John 3. Hebrews 11:39-40 says all the OTS had to wait to be made perfect, holy and blameless.

So what does Romans 4:3 actually say?

What does the "it" refer to? Abraham's faith! Thus Abraham was not made righteous, perfect and holy, but his faith was credited to Abraham as or for righteousness. God accepted Abraham's faith is what the verse says. See verse 5 if you think I missed the mark.

Thus Abraham gained approval through faith. He was not made righteous, justified, perfected or born anew. All these promises were kept with the propitiation of Christ.

Christ's death provided the justification of life to all men, including Abraham. Only those God puts spiritually in Christ are covered with His blood, justified.

If Abraham had to wait then Jehovah's promise to him was all in vain. What was Abraham's thoughts when Jehovah spoke to him:

Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

How would Moses and all the Israelites believe this statement for generations to come before the resurrection ever took place?

Because Abraham believed he was called the "Friend of God."
James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
--Note the Scripture was fulfilled. Fulfilled how? That righteousness had already been imputed unto Abraham long before the resurrection ever took place.

Your problem is that you take a preconceived theological stance and then try to fit everything into your paradigm whether or not the Bible teaches that. In this case the Bible doesn't teach what your paradigm sets out, and you can't make it fit. Therefore your theological paradigm is wrong, not the Bible.

 

[Yeshua1]

If Abraham had to wait then Jehovah's promise to him was all in vain. What was Abraham's thoughts when Jehovah spoke to him:

Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

How would Moses and all the Israelites believe this statement for generations to come before the resurrection ever took place?

Because Abraham believed he was called the "Friend of God."
James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
--Note the Scripture was fulfilled. Fulfilled how? That righteousness had already been imputed unto Abraham long before the resurrection ever took place.

Your problem is that you take a preconceived theological stance and then try to fit everything into your paradigm whether or not the Bible teaches that. In this case the Bible doesn't teach what your paradigm sets out, and you can't make it fit. Therefore your theological paradigm is wrong, not the Bible.

BOTH the OT/BT sinners were saved by God thru the act of the Messiah death upon the Cross, the question undecided was did the OT believers have the HS SAME fashion we do under the NC, or did God somehow remit their sins upon Christ, yet they did not have the HS indweling them as we do?

 

[Yeshua1]

I think that is the case. The Covenant of Law presented in shadow, in parable, the Atonement that would be produced through the sinless Son of God. While the Mystery of Christ was not made known until after Pentecost and the ministry of the Comforter had begun, obedience to God in relation to this Covenant was not mandated for no purpose. They understood sacrifice for sin, and while it was not until the Comforter made this understandable to man, their faith resulted in obedience through faith in God and a willingness to obey.

Consider:

1 Corinthians 2:7-11

King James Version (KJV)

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.


In v.9 we see this quotation applied to Christ. If those that ultimately contributed to the death of Christ had known this mystery, that is, what Christ would accomplish through His death and Resurrection, they would not have crucified Him, but, I believe, they and Satan would have assigned a security detail to make sure He would not even dash His foot against a stone.

Romans 16:25

King James Version (KJV)

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,


If we carefully consider the Disciples in the Gospels, it becomes clear that they do not understand the Mystery of Christ, though it was not given unto them to understand at that point. Christ told them directly that He would die, Peter going so far as to say "This will never happen to you," which statement earned him a severe rebuke from the Lord.

Paul tells us this mystery was kept secret since the world began.

Concerning those given unto the Lord, we see that He kept them and none were lost:

John 17:12

King James Version (KJV)

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.


They were kept...by the Lord. However, two important things are clear in scripture: 1) the Lord said He must leave that the Comforter come; 2) the disciples had not received the Spirit of God, and this is clear in Acts 1, where the Lord tells them the Promise of the Father would come, and they would be baptized with the Holy Ghost:



Acts 1

King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.


Even at this point the disciples did not understand fully that which the Lord had done. But, not many days hence...they would.




I do as well. Just as the disciples were kept by Christ before the Cross, even so those that shall be heirs of salvation are as well. The disciples had not received the Comforter at that point but we can see that the ministry of Christ did have impact on their lives:


John 15

King James Version (KJV)

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.




Ephesians 5:25-26

King James Version (KJV)


25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,



Romans 10:17

King James Version (KJV)


17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


Faith in Christ arises through the word, and specifically the word introduced to the heart of man by the Holy Spirit, as Paul teaches that the natural man cannot understand the things of God.

I would suggest that prior to the Cross and Pentecost the specific nature of the ministry of Christ was not revealed, even to His closest disciples. The cleansing which the word of God has always produced did not begin after Pentecost, however, it was not until God made known to man through the ministry of the Comforter the mystery of Christ that it became understood. We can look into the Law and clearly see Christ, far more clearly than the Old Testament Saints. But they were still assured of salvation though their faith did not have the revealed focus of the Son of God dying on behalf of man, to take upon Himself our penalty for sin.





I believe it was exactly that.


Galatians 3:6

King James Version (KJV)


6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.


But Abraham could not place his faith in the Risen Lord.

As posted previously, many Old Testament Saints received "a good report." However, they were not made perfect, and the importance of that cannot be underestimated.

The Law and the sacrifices of Law could not make perfect, or complete, only Christ fulfilling that which the Law only pictured could. Abraham had faith in God, but you and I can place our faith in the completed work of Christ, Who has died in our place that we might have life. That life, Eternal Life, is not just that we will live forever, but because God is in us, His Life is in us.

The saints of old can be seen to have faith, and in fact can be seen to have been moved by the Spirit of God, Who worked through them, however, concerning the ministry of the Holy Spirit in our lives, we are told, as Percho quotes in the previous post, that He is the earnest of our inheritance. We see King Saul as an example of one through whom the Spirit of God worked through yet the Spirit of God departed from him. There is no indication of this scripture concerning those born again, and in fact, we are told the exact opposite, and are sure He will never leave nor forsake us.



It is my belief as well that God makes provision for those that cannot fully comprehend sin, righteousness, and judgment. This would include children and those mentally challenged. God is righteous and will not demand something that He has not also made clear to an individual. This can be seen in those before the Cross, who did not understand the Mystery of Christ, and we have for an example the disciples themselves. If anyone should have understood that Christ would die for the sins of man, it should have been Peter. John the Baptist is another example of the Holy Spirit ministering through men, as he proclaimed, "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sins of the world." Powerful statement, yet, while in prison, Joh sends his own disciples to ask of Christ...


Matthew 11

King James Version (KJV)


2 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples,

3 And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?


The Lord said of John...


Matthew 11:11

King James Version (KJV)

11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.


John was not in the Kingdom of Heaven? Was John "saved?" He was "saved" in the sense that he belonged to God, yet, even being the second to last Old Testament Prophet, the revelation of the Mystery of Christ had not been made known to John. He inquired if Christ was in fact the Messiah. This indicates, I believe, or illustrates I should say, the ministry of the Holy Spirit in men, where they prophesy according to the Spirit yet have not full understanding revealed to them. Showing that the ministry of the Spirit of God did not begin with Pentecost, however, I think that given the revelation of the Mystery of Christ, which was kept hidden until the appointed time, we can see a distinct change in both the indwelling as well as that which He makes known unto us.



God bless.

For we are now under a MUCH beter/surer Coveannt with God, and I think the key to that being new and better is now we have direct access to God thru Jesus, and God Himself dwells in our livng vessals!

As paul seemed to make the sign of the new covenant the Holy Spirit in us!

 

[Van]

Pitchback

If Abraham had to wait then Jehovah's promise to him was all in vain. What was Abraham's thoughts when Jehovah spoke to him:

Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

How would Moses and all the Israelites believe this statement for generations to come before the resurrection ever took place?

Because Abraham believed he was called the "Friend of God."
James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
--Note the Scripture was fulfilled. Fulfilled how? That righteousness had already been imputed unto Abraham long before the resurrection ever took place.

Your problem is that you take a preconceived theological stance and then try to fit everything into your paradigm whether or not the Bible teaches that. In this case the Bible doesn't teach what your paradigm sets out, and you can't make it fit. Therefore your theological paradigm is wrong, not the Bible.

Abraham's faith in God was not in vain. Abraham's seed (Jesus) blessed the whole world.

If they understood it correctly they would understand it just as Paul understood it, Abraham's faith was credited as righteousness.

Lets look at James 2:23 and see if there is any support for Abraham himself being made righteous. "And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "And Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. So yet another verse that clearly says Abraham's faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness. God turned Abraham's faith into righteousness.

No verse says Abraham was made righteous before Christ died, none, zip, nada.

You hold a well accepted view, it is just not what scripture says.

 

[Yeshua1]

Abraham's faith in God was not in vain. Abraham's seed (Jesus) blessed the whole world.

If they understood it correctly they would understand it just as Paul understood it, Abraham's faith was credited as righteousness.

Lets look at James 2:23 and see if there is any support for Abraham himself being made righteous. "And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "And Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. So yet another verse that clearly says Abraham's faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness. God turned Abraham's faith into righteousness.

No verse says Abraham was made righteous before Christ died, none, zip, nada.

You hold a well accepted view, it is just not what scripture says.

Bible did not say Abraham/Moses/Daniel etc became rightous, but that thru their faith God credited that to them!

Any guessing as to where God got that grace to credit them from?

Hint, He came as he promised One fortold in Isaiah 53!

 

[DHK]

Abraham's faith in God was not in vain. Abraham's seed (Jesus) blessed the whole world.

If they understood it correctly they would understand it just as Paul understood it, Abraham's faith was credited as righteousness.

Lets look at James 2:23 and see if there is any support for Abraham himself being made righteous. "And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "And Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. So yet another verse that clearly says Abraham's faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness. God turned Abraham's faith into righteousness.

No verse says Abraham was made righteous before Christ died, none, zip, nada.

You hold a well accepted view, it is just not what scripture says.

It is accepted but it is Biblical. Trust in the Word, not a system.

Romans 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
--"Whom he believed, even God."
One cannot get much clearer than that. It is past tense. Abraham believed God. Thus God made him a father of many nations.

Romans 4:18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations; according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
--"Against hope believed in hope."
This is a picture of true Christian faith or the faith of a believer. An unbeliever cannot demonstrate such faith. It reminds one of the faith expressed in Titus 2,
Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
That is our hope. We look in faith to his glorious coming.

Romans 4:19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:
--What a picture of strong faith; one that an unbeliever could never have.

20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
--"the promise of God through unbelief."
What is that I hear? There was no unbelief in Abraham. He was declared by his faith a righteous man.

Romans 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
--Here you find one of the best definitions of faith in the Bible.
Faith is being fully persuaded that what God has promised he is fully able to perform, and he will do it. That is faith. It is confidence in the promises of God. Abraham had that confidence, that faith.

And for that reason, it was at that time, that....
Romans 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
--This is not a future event. Righteousness was imputed to him back then. He was declared righteous back then. He was a man of faith, not of works. It was because of his faith that God could declare him a righteous man.

 

[Van]

Not to put too fine a point on it, DHK, the issue is not that Abraham believed God. The issue is whether, because of Abraham's faith, Abraham was declared righteous (your view) or Abraham's faith was declared righteous (my view). None of the verses (Romans 4:17-22) say Abraham was made righteous. They all say Abraham's faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness.

Now according to scripture, how are individuals "made righteous?" Romans 5:19 says we are made righteous through the obedience of the One, i.e. Christ's sinless life and sacrificial death. You cannot go through a door because a door is planned. Therefore the OTS had to wait to be made perfect (in Abraham's bosom) until Christ died.

So the issue is, are we saved by faith in the blood, or are we saved by the blood. The OTS could certainly be set apart through faith in the blood, like being carried to Abraham's bosom, but did they have to wait to be made perfect, righteous, holy and blameless through the death of Christ? Of course.

The OTS, including Abraham gained approval through faith, but they followed Christ in the washing of regeneration.

 

[Van]

We seem to have a number of people who hold mistaken views concerning being made righteous. We are fully justified, holy, blameless and perfect, without fault, when we are made righteous. This is done via the washing of regeneration. We are baptized into Christ's body, undergo the circumcision of Christ where our body of flesh (sin) is removed, and we arise in Christ a new creation, born anew from above.

 

[DHK]

Now according to scripture, how are individuals "made righteous?" Romans 5:19 says we are made righteous through the obedience of the One, i.e. Christ's sinless life and sacrificial death. You cannot go through a door because a door is planned. Therefore the OTS had to wait to be made perfect (in Abraham's bosom) until Christ died.

If this is what you believe then you believe that salvation is by works.
Salvation is never through obedience by always through faith.

For by grace are ye saved by faith and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast.
--It is not of obedience; not of works.

Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Abraham indeed was justified, but not by his obedience, not by his works.

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
--His works will be counted as a debt. That is the same as your works. As a Christian your works will be evaluated at the Judgment Seat of Christ. You will either receive reward or loss. It will not be grace at that Judgment.

Romans 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
--However, concerning salvation Abraham's works did not count toward his salvation. Nothing did. His salvation was totally by the grace of God. Abraham simply believed. By faith in Jehovah, and no works whatsoever, he was justified. That is grace, and that is what Paul sets out to demonstrate here.
You seek to demonstrate a works-based salvation.

 

[Van]

Question for DHK, why did the OTS, including Abraham, have to wait to be made perfect, if he had already been made righteous. Maybe God made Abraham righteous, but still unholy, blemished and less than faultless. Sound doctrine must be consistent with all scripture, including 1 Peter 1:3, Hebrews 11:39-40, Romans 4:22-23, and Romans 5:19.

We are made righteous through the sacrifice and death of Christ, Romans 5:19.

We are made holy and blameless through the death of Christ, Colossians 1:22.

We are born anew through the resurrection of Christ, 1 Peter 1:3

We are made perfect in Christ, Hebrews 12:23, as a member of the church of the firstborn.

 

[Van]

I am sorry sir, DHK, but to make the charge I believe in salvation through works is needless and false. The "obedience" is Christ's obedience, not ours. Just read the verse, Romans 5:19.

Next, you change the subject to the truth that we are saved by grace through faith. That again is not in dispute. Why not stay on topic?

Why did the OTS, including Abraham, have to wait to be made perfect if he had been made righteous before Christ shed His blood? Please do not change the subject.

 

[DHK]

Question for DHK, why did the OTS, including Abraham, have to wait to be made perfect, if he had already been made righteous. Maybe God made Abraham righteous, but still unholy, blemished and less than faultless. Sound doctrine must be consistent with all scripture, including 1 Peter 1:3, Hebrews 11:39-40, Romans 4:22-23, and Romans 5:19.

We are made righteous through the sacrifice and death of Christ, Romans 5:19.

We are made holy and blameless through the death of Christ, Colossians 1:22.

We are born anew through the resurrection of Christ, 1 Peter 1:3

We are made perfect in Christ, Hebrews 12:23, as a member of the church of the firstborn.

That is all true in their context!
Peter and Paul were not addressing OT saints when they made those statements, and therefore are irrelevant when it comes to speaking of OT saints.

 

[percho]

Question for DHK, why did the OTS, including Abraham, have to wait to be made perfect, if he had already been made righteous. Maybe God made Abraham righteous, but still unholy, blemished and less than faultless. Sound doctrine must be consistent with all scripture, including 1 Peter 1:3, Hebrews 11:39-40, Romans 4:22-23, and Romans 5:19.

We are made righteous through the sacrifice and death of Christ, Romans 5:19.

We are made holy and blameless through the death of Christ, Colossians 1:22.

We are born anew through the resurrection of Christ, 1 Peter 1:3

We are made perfect in Christ, Hebrews 12:23, as a member of the church of the firstborn.

Have the OTS yet been made perfect?

In Hebrews 11:13 they died in faith not having received the promises. Do the promises have anything to do with perfection?

In verses 39 and 40 they are still dead in faith and have still not been made perfect and this is some 40 or 50 years after Christ was raised from the dead.

When will Larry, Curly, or Mo or Me or You or Abraham or anyone else be made as perfect as Christ is perfect?

Christ! Heb. 5:9 And being made perfect he became. When was he made perfect?

Was he perfect when he was 30 years old? Can that which is perfect die?

Romans 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. Because he was raised to eternal life. Life in himself as his Father has. J5:29

What perfected him Jesus the Christ? Resurrection to eternal life.

We have the seed of that life in us by the word of God that even as Jesus was raised from the dead unto eternal life so shall we.

Because of the fact of his resurrection by the word of God we have the begotten again hope of that same life by the eternal word of God.

The resurrection of Christ is totally negated by Christianity because it does not teach the necessity of resurrection for eternal life. Christ, the person died for our sins. When he died in the flesh, Christ the person, not just the body, but the Son of God died and the person, the Son of God, had to be given life again by his Father.

That life comes by resurrection for those who have died including Abraham and is inclusive of all except those alive at the coming of the Lord and they must be changed.

The prophet of God spoke as a prophet: I am the resurrection and the life.

Because he has been raised from the dead.

His perfection came by his resurrection and so will ours come by resurrection unless we live unto his coming.

If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: ---Paul--- Phil 3:11,12

 

[percho]

Question for all.

Was Jesus born of his mother Mary and was Jesus born again from the dead, according to the scriptures?

And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger;

And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead;

 

[Darrell C]

Hi Darrel C, 1 Corinthians 2:6-11 supports my view of 1 Corinthians 2:14-3:3.

We agree God must provide the grace of His revelation for us to have something to put our faith in. However, this enlightening is by presenting God's Word, the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of salvation.

Hello Van, thanks for the reply. We seem to be getting a little off topic, which is disappointing seeing that we are in agreement concerning the New Birth in relation to Old Testament saints, lol.

We agree God must provide the grace of His revelation for us to have something to put our faith in. However, this enlightening is by presenting God's Word, the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of salvation.

But we must be very careful not to ascribe a salvific attribute to those that are used to present the Gospel. In other words, salvation from start to finish is through the power of God alone, and that would include even the Apostles. Paul was given revelation to present to the Body of Christ, but, Paul saved not a solitary soul. No more than a single nail has ever built a house. Paul communicated mysteries and those mysteries were preserved in God's word, but, Paul originated not one of those mysteries, no more than a solitary fax machine ever originated a single document, but simply transmitted the document.

So too, the power of the Gospel lies solely in the One that made the Gospel a reality, that is, Jesus Christ. Before His ascension, the Lord said "I will send another Comforter," and the Spirit of God carries out the ministry of Christ in the hearts of men today. Not one person who has been born again, of their own volition, decided they would get saved. God placed the possibility of salvation squarely in their hearts, or they would surely have taken as much notice of the Lord as most of us take notice of the weeds along the roadside as we drive through the country.

Apart from God's ministry natural man has no more ability to understand spiritual things than a babe has of understanding rocket science.

You say our revelation is revealed by the "Spirit of God."

I didn't say it, God did:



Ephesians 3

King James Version (KJV)


1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Just prior to be taken, the said unto the disciples:


John 14

King James Version (KJV)

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.


The Spirit of God is said to dwell with them, but the time was coming when He would be IN them. And we see the Lord say, "I will come to you."

He goes on to add to that...


23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


Now concerning the indwelling of God we see that the Lord is teaching that the day is coming when there would be a difference in the ministry which was at this time and that which would come. In Acts 1 the Lord speaks of the promise of the Father (the Old Testament prophecy) which they had heard of Him (this very passage), which came about on Pentecost. The disciples, at this point, and in fact just days prior to Pentecost had not been taught of the Spirit of God under New Covenant standards.


29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.


According to the Lord, their "belief" was yet to come.

Understanding the future tense of this passage goes a long way, I believe, in making sense of the teaching of the True Vine. Those that teach loss of salvation mistakenly attribute salvation to the disciples at this point...before they receive the Spirit of God, which, as I said before, is an impossibility.

One cannot be saved apart from the fulfillment of the Promise of the Father, specifically, the indwelling of God in the believer. As Paul said, "If they have not the Spirit of Christ they are none of His."

But back to the Primary focus:


John 15

King James Version (KJV)

26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.



When the New Covenant was established, ratified by the blood of Christ, all those saved from the disciples even unto this day are witnesses of that which the Spirit of God reveals.


John 16

King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.


We understand that the ministry of the Comforter at this point is yet future, and His ministry is described in terms which we understand leads men to repentance, belief, faith, and salvation. The Comforter, prior to salvation and the New Birth, ministers to men to bring them to knowledge of the truth.

The next verse states clearly the position of the disciples at this point:


12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

Why not? Because they have not the Comforter that will show these things to them. But when He is come...


13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Clearly the ministry of the Comforter will bring about a difference in the lives of not just the disciples, but in all men. No man that dies outside of Christ will be able to say..."But you never told me these things, God." Because God will minister the truth to all men, and will be righteous in His judgment. There will be no excuses on that day.

As we saw in 1 Corinthians 2:7-10 the mystery of Christ was not yet revealed to men, and when it was, it was revealed to men by the Spirit of God. Here...


25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.


...we see this is still true of the disciples, they have yet to understand. As mentioned before, the disciples had yet to believe, because they had yet to have understanding revealed to them. The Lord asks them this:



John 16:31-32

King James Version (KJV)


31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?

32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.


Peter is made the whipping boy by many a sermon, but we can understand Peter's failure to that which he boasted before the Lord, to stand with Him: he was not indwelt by the Comforter, and I would go so far to say, that though declared "clean" by the word spoken by the Lord (John 15:3), he was not yet born again. The spiritual resurrection and thus the LIFE which God imparts to those saved through union with Him by His indwelling (which the Lord distinguishes between dwelling with them and in them (John 14:17)).

Continued...

 

[Jedi Knight]

Hello Van, thanks for the reply. We seem to be getting a little off topic, which is disappointing seeing that we are in agreement concerning the New Birth in relation to Old Testament saints, lol.

Now back to our program! :type: Were the OT saints born again of the spirit of God? Did the Holy Spirit indwell them in the Old Testament? :wavey:

 

[Darrell C]

But this could mean (1) any of the various methods of communication such as the spoken word, the written word, visions and dreams, or

These are various ways in which revelation was given both by God to man as well as man to other men:



Hebrews 1

King James Version (KJV)

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

(2) the supernatural alteration of our ability to understand God's revelation.

This is confined to the ministry the Lord does in the hearts of men. And while God did at times use men who without understanding prophesied (i.e. Balaam, Caiaphas, and I would even go so far as to include John the Baptist in declaring the Atonement of Christ prior to the revelation of the Mystery of Christ through the Comforter), there is no question that without the "supernatural alteration" of the natural man's ability to understand...understanding is non-existent. Natural man truly recite and quote and even preach the Gospel, however, understanding is an intimate knowledge. One might be able to sympathize with someone who has undergone something, but until they themselves have experienced it, they do not have the "understanding" of those that have, such as alcoholism, for instance.

I believe the Holy Spirit reveals God via number 1.

I believe we have to include both, the second option by far the more important.

Note verse 13 where Paul "speaks" the spiritual things given to him by the Spirit of God. Thus revealing them to others, including natural men.

The primary factor being that Paul was taught these things that he might communicate them to others...by the Holy Spirit. The natural man can acknowledge Christ, as the disciples did during His ministry, but they did not have the understanding they would after that the Comforter was come unto them.

Even so, the natural man must first be moved to understanding before he can receive the spiritual things of God. I can be told of many things, but that does not mean that I receive them. We can convey the Gospel to natural men, but that does not mean they receive Christ. This does not mean they cannot believe these things to be true, as I have on a number of occasions spoken with atheists that reject the Gospel, not because they deny the veracity, but because they reject God Himself, and believe they hold a morally superior position than God. They ridicule God because He allowed His Son to die.

In summary Paul says the Natural Man cannot understand spiritual meat,

No, what Paul says is...


1 Corinthians 2

King James Version (KJV)

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


In other words, the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God because he is operating with a human spirit. The natural man can pick up the best commentaries to be found yet apart from the Spirit of God bringing understanding...he will not understand.

There is no distinction between milk and meat. The "milk" is for the babe, and until one is born (again/anew) they are outside the area whereby they receive nourishment from the word of God. Just before this Paul wrote:


10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

Understanding the Gospel is through the revelation of the Holy Spirit.


11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Apart from the Holy Spirit no man can know the things of God. That is the supernatural alteration that takes place during the convicting ministry of the Holy Spirit in the heart of the natural man.


12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

God said "I will give you a new spirit," and "I will put my Spirit in you." That is the Promise of the Father in relation to the New Covenant (Ezekial 36:26-27).

Until that takes place, man remains natural, he is not born again.

the stuff where we need to be indwelt to understand with the aid of the leading of our Helper,

The babe in Christ receives milk, and as he grows he progresses to meat. The natural man does not receive milk. The writer of Hebrews rebukes his audience for their laziness concerning the Principles of the Doctrine of Christ. The assumption he makes is, "If you are saved, you are woefully ignorant in your understanding concerning that which was spoken of Christ in the Old Testament. You should be teaching the meat, yet instead you are in need of milk (Hebrews 5:10-14). " The writer, I believe, does question the validity of their faith in Christ, though he goes on to say "We are persuaded better things of you. (Hebrews 6:9)"

but Natural Man can understand spiritual milk,

I just do not take that view. At best, they are brought to an understanding through the convicting ministry of the Comforter, yet at this point, while they have an understanding that would allow them to receive Christ, they of themselves must receive Christ. These are they have been brought to a point where they acknowledge the truth, but remain unsaved and in danger of falling away. Those that do receive Christ are born again, and at this point begin their walk with the Lord.

As we discussed previously, this state can go on for years, as it is possible for men to resist the Holy Spirit, even as they did prior to the establishment of the New Covenant (Acts 7:51).

the fundamentals of the gospel, which Paul received from the Spirit of God.

Paul did not receive the fundamentals, but the Revelation of the Mystery of Christ:



Romans 16:25-26

King James Version (KJV)


25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Now back to our program! :type: Were the OT saints born again of the spirit of God? Did the Holy Spirit indwell them in the Old Testament? :wavey:

We can see the Lord distinguish between the ministries performed by the Spirit of God in the lives of men here:



John 14:17

King James Version (KJV)


17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

That the Comforter would/could not come until Christ Ascended is seen here:




John 16:7

King James Version (KJV)


7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.


If the Lord Himself distinguishes between these ministries...shouldn't we?

God bless.

 

[Van]

That is all true in their context!
Peter and Paul were not addressing OT saints when they made those statements, and therefore are irrelevant when it comes to speaking of OT saints.

DHK, why not address the question, rather than nullify the truth of God's inspired word. Why did the OTS have to wait to be made perfect (Hebrews 11:39-40) if they had been made righteous before Christ died?

Folks, many people think Abraham was made righteous. But a careful study of the passages, i.e. Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness, most likely means Abraham gained approval through faith in God's promises, a faith so strong, faithful adherence to God's commands followed, i.e. faith that was alive and not dead.

No one comes to the Father except through Me [Jesus] includes all the OTS. No one means no one. No one had ascended to heaven (the third heaven, the abode of the Father) before Christ died, no one including the OTS.