The LORD replied to Moses, "Take Joshua son of Nun, a man who has the Spirit in him, and lay your hands on him. Numbers 27:18 :type:
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Were Old Testament Saints Born Again?
- Thread starter Jedi Knight
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Hi Percho, we disagree, the perfection referred to is to be made holy and blameless in Christ by the washing of regeneration.
The promise was that through the one seed, all the world would be blessed, Jew and Gentile. So everyone saved by Jesus is a child of the promise. Galatians 3, the whole chapter.
Abraham gained approval through faith in the promise of God that he (Abraham) would be the father of many, even when he was old and Sarah was barren.
The promise was that through the one seed, all the world would be blessed, Jew and Gentile. So everyone saved by Jesus is a child of the promise. Galatians 3, the whole chapter.
Abraham gained approval through faith in the promise of God that he (Abraham) would be the father of many, even when he was old and Sarah was barren.
There are two well accepted views of Numbers 27:18, that Joshua had the spirit of a leader in him (NIV translation), or that Joshua had been equipped to lead by the Holy Spirit. Neither view accepts Joshua had been indwelt because he was in Christ before Christ died. You cannot go through a door because it is planned to be created, you can only go through a door after the door is created, and the door in view was created when Christ died, the perfect sacrifice to provide the ransom for all, including the OTS.
Yet another slice and dice post, removing what was new, and then complaining about what was an old rebuttal to an old assertion.
Go figure.
Folks, there is no actual dispute, scripture clearly teaches no one was made perfect, born again, made righteous before Christ died. No one ascended to the third heaven before Christ died. Those who claim the old testament saints were made perfect before Christ's death say Hebrews 11:39-40 does not mean what it says. Those that say the OTS were born again, say 1 Peter 1:3 does not mean what it says. Those that say the OTS were made righteous, say Romans 5:19 does not mean what it says. On and on, no matter how many scriptures must be nullified irrationally, the falsehood is proclaimed because of Calvinism.
Go figure.
Folks, there is no actual dispute, scripture clearly teaches no one was made perfect, born again, made righteous before Christ died. No one ascended to the third heaven before Christ died. Those who claim the old testament saints were made perfect before Christ's death say Hebrews 11:39-40 does not mean what it says. Those that say the OTS were born again, say 1 Peter 1:3 does not mean what it says. Those that say the OTS were made righteous, say Romans 5:19 does not mean what it says. On and on, no matter how many scriptures must be nullified irrationally, the falsehood is proclaimed because of Calvinism.
Poll say most believe OT saints were indeed born of Gods Spirit before the NT.:wavey:
Old Testament saints were saved, regenerated and justified, and they had faith. Thus, they were indwelt by the Holy Spirit. In this regard, the Holy Spirit's ministry was the same in the Old Testament as it is now.
Sometimes it can be confusing to think about the Holy Spirit permanently indwelling Old Testament believers because David spoke of the possibility of God taking away his Holy Spirit (Ps. 51:11), but David was not speaking of the indwelling presence of God. Rather, he was speaking of God's anointing him as king. David did not want God to punish him for his sin by taking away the throne of Israel, as God had previously done to Saul.
Sometimes it can be confusing to think about the Holy Spirit permanently indwelling Old Testament believers because David spoke of the possibility of God taking away his Holy Spirit (Ps. 51:11), but David was not speaking of the indwelling presence of God. Rather, he was speaking of God's anointing him as king. David did not want God to punish him for his sin by taking away the throne of Israel, as God had previously done to Saul.
What the Poll said,
So it looks like the deceptive title was not an innocent mistake after all, DHK.
So it looks like the deceptive title was not an innocent mistake after all, DHK.
What the Poll said,
So it looks like the deceptive title was not an innocent mistake after all, DHK.
deceptive? A child could understand the poll question. You on the other hand have been deceived into a works mode and born again is a totally different meaning to you. DHK pegged you right the first time.
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LOL, I provide the verses that say no one was born again, 1 Peter 1:3; made righteous, Romans 5:19; made perfect, Hebrews 11:39-40; before Christ died and each and every verse is said not to say what it says, i.e. through the death of Christ.
Yet another question, scripture says when we are put in Christ we are transferred from the realm of darkness into the kingdom of His beloved Son. Why is it no one had ascended to heaven, the kingdom of God, before Christ died. No answer will be forthcoming. Colossians 1:22 says when we are in Christ we are reconciled, thus having no spot or blemish, being considered holy and blameless in God's eyes.
It the OTS had been born again, why did they not enter heaven rather than Abraham's bosom.
Verse after verse folks teach the OTS had to wait in Abraham's bosom until Christ died to be born again.
The Holy Spirit did come upon OTS, equipping them for service, such as inspiring them, but that does not equate with indwelling, because we are indwelt after we are in Christ, and we follow Christ in the regeneration, Christ being the first born (referring to birth order) from the dead.
This thread is simply another example of Calvinism redefining words to pour the man-made doctrine into the text.
convicted1
Guest
How could they have faith when they were shut up unto the faith?
They were shut up unto the faith prior to Christ.
Howdy convicted1! Genesis 3:15 was the first gospel preached.....looking forward in faith. Job 19:25 know that my redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand on the earth. Faith here? Indeed!
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psalms109:31
Active Member
Psalm 51:11
Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me.
Matthew 3:16
As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him.
Jeremiah 23:
21 I did not send these prophets,
yet they have run with their message;
I did not speak to them,
yet they have prophesied.
22 But if they had stood in my council,
they would have proclaimed my words to my people
and would have turned them from their evil ways
and from their evil deeds.
23 “Am I only a God nearby,”
declares the Lord,
“and not a God far away?
24 Who can hide in secret places
so that I cannot see them?”
declares the Lord.
“Do not I fill heaven and earth?”
declares the Lord.
The Holy Spirit can use a worm, a burning bush, and wicked men for we are are all wicked to be a messenger, but it does not make them alive.
God word is what makes us alive the old testament believers alive waiting for the Perfect Lamb.
The puppet master can use a puppet to do what He wants them to do and leave them dead as they were, but His word makes us alive forever.
It isn't until Jesus was glorified that we received the Holy Spirit permanence in those who believe.
People was saved by His word without receiving the Holy Spirit.
Acts 19:2
and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”
Isaiah 40:8
The grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of our God endures forever.”
Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me.
Matthew 3:16
As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him.
Jeremiah 23:
21 I did not send these prophets,
yet they have run with their message;
I did not speak to them,
yet they have prophesied.
22 But if they had stood in my council,
they would have proclaimed my words to my people
and would have turned them from their evil ways
and from their evil deeds.
23 “Am I only a God nearby,”
declares the Lord,
“and not a God far away?
24 Who can hide in secret places
so that I cannot see them?”
declares the Lord.
“Do not I fill heaven and earth?”
declares the Lord.
The Holy Spirit can use a worm, a burning bush, and wicked men for we are are all wicked to be a messenger, but it does not make them alive.
God word is what makes us alive the old testament believers alive waiting for the Perfect Lamb.
The puppet master can use a puppet to do what He wants them to do and leave them dead as they were, but His word makes us alive forever.
It isn't until Jesus was glorified that we received the Holy Spirit permanence in those who believe.
People was saved by His word without receiving the Holy Spirit.
Acts 19:2
and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”
Isaiah 40:8
The grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of our God endures forever.”
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Baloney! Romans 8:9 if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.
psalms109:31
Active Member
Acts 19:2
and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”
Bold it maybe you will read it
John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.
His word is our Spirit and life.
John 6:53
Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
His word is our life and Spirit and the blood is the life He lived.
Romans 10:
16 However, they did not all heed the [the gospel]good news; for Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word [Or concerning Christ]of Christ.
Slice and Dice Calvinism on display
I write no one was born again until Christ's resurrection, 1 Peter 1:3, and it gets sliced up and its meaning reversed.
This is all they have folks, misdirection, misrepresentation, and misinformation.
No one was born again until after Christ's death, 1 Peter 1:3.
No one was made perfect until after Christ's death, Hebrews 11:39-40.
No one was made righteous until after Christ's death, Romans 5:19
No one was made holy and blameless until after Christ's death, Colossians 1:22.
No one was baptized into Christ's death until Christ died, Romans 6:3
This is an obvious biblical truth, and no amount of denial of the obvious will alter or diminish the truth that the OTS had to wait until Christ died to be born again, made holy and blameless, made perfect, made righteous until Christ died.
I write no one was born again until Christ's resurrection, 1 Peter 1:3, and it gets sliced up and its meaning reversed.
This is all they have folks, misdirection, misrepresentation, and misinformation.
No one was born again until after Christ's death, 1 Peter 1:3.
No one was made perfect until after Christ's death, Hebrews 11:39-40.
No one was made righteous until after Christ's death, Romans 5:19
No one was made holy and blameless until after Christ's death, Colossians 1:22.
No one was baptized into Christ's death until Christ died, Romans 6:3
This is an obvious biblical truth, and no amount of denial of the obvious will alter or diminish the truth that the OTS had to wait until Christ died to be born again, made holy and blameless, made perfect, made righteous until Christ died.
So they needed to try to believe harder to receive the Spirit? :laugh: Ephesians 1:13 When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, Done deal!
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psalms109:31
Active Member
Jesus tells us to listen and learn from Him, He said He and the Father are one.
So what the Father said about concerning Jesus in the old testament is the same as Jesus taught and He changes us makes us a new creation. Listening isn't going to help ever hearing and never understanding. It is to listen and learn.
It is His word that has come from above that changes us without that you are dead.
That is the point of repent and live, not live to repent.
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