Featured free will vs. election???????

So fellowship/relationship with God was lost through Adam's free will choice to disobey. thus sin entered the picture because of disobedience.

What happened in the fall, did it?
(1) bring only physical death, in which case we'd still be able to spiritually discern and choose right from wrong.
(2) bring both spiritual death and physical death, in which case a dead man doesn't have much option to do anything for himself.

If physical death is all the fall brought, and we have the same free will as Adam:
(1) Why did Paul write that we were slaves to sin? Can't we just choose to do good and be okay?
(2) Why did Christ have to die at all, I mean couldn't he have just stayed on earth preaching and doing miracles and convince man that he was God's son.

 

The fall brought Body,soul,and spirt DEATH--when men died they didn't just die bodily--but all 3 parts of man dies soul,spirit,body--until the Resurrection occurred and raised them--this was the DEATH that was swallowed up in Victory--what came in through Adam's Sin--was defeated and destroyed through 1 man's(Christ) obedience--that was DEATH

 

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False dicotomy

1) There are scriptures that indicate Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all. That even false teachers who deny Christ have been bought. But other scriptures indicate Christ died for the church, i.e. those actually saved.

Calvinism claims it is one or the other, and they say Christ died only for those saved. However, an alternate view is both are true, Christ died for all mankind, becoming the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, which includes everyone saved. There is therefore no need to nullify scripture or pick one verse and overwrite another.

2) Calvinism uses words found in scripture but redefines them according to their man-made theology. Election simply means choice, electing to pick this over that. Calvinism uses the word as code for God choosing certain foreseen individuals before creation for salvation. They base this on Ephesians 1:4 which says He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world. You cannot tell, from the immediate context whether this refers to choosing corporately all those who would be subsequently redeemed by the Lamb of God, or individually chosen. Other verses preclude this "election" being individual. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says we were chosen through faith in the truth. Nobody had faith before they lived, heard the gospel, and responded in wholehearted faith.
Thus if we are chosen individually during our lifetime based on God crediting our faith as righteousness, we were chosen corporately, i.e. as the target group of God's redemption plan, before creation. Several verses indicate our individual election for salvation occurs during out lifetime, after we have lived without mercy, i.e. 1 Peter 2:9-10.

3) Does God show favoritism? God does not favor individuals based on the world's value system. Not many well born, powerful, or well educated were chosen. But according to His value system He does show favoritism. God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble. So here again, we have a biblical doctrine, God does not play favorites according to the world's value system being taken too far which creates conflict with many verses where God chooses those of faith and humility and love and places them spiritually "in Christ" the sanctifying work of the Spirit.

4) The controversy concerning "free will versus election" is not a mystery at all. God says whoever believes in Him shall not perish. In order not to perish, God must choose (elect) the individual based on crediting their faith, as flawed as it is, as righteousness, and place then in Christ.

So the biblical order is this:

(1) God chose His Lamb before the foundation of the world. 1 Peter 1:19-20.

(2) He chose us [those redeemed] in Him before the foundation of the world. Ephesians 1:4. You do not choose a Redeemer without a plan to redeem, thus in choosing Christ, He chose us [corporately] in Him [when He chose His Redeemer] before creation.

(3) Adam sinned and the result was the condemnation of all men, the many (all men except Christ) were made sinners in a separated from God, corrupted sinful condition.

(4) Christ died for all men, providing the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, all mankind. However, only those who "receive" the reconciliation offered by the shed blood of Christ, are saved, washed with His blood, made alive, born anew, made a new creation, and are sealed with the Holy Spirit as a pledge for being resurrected to eternal life at Christ's second coming.

(5) The Holy Spirit inspired the NT writers to provide the gospel of Christ to all those who hear and understand. Some men, the first soil of Matthew 13:1-23, have been hardened and cannot understand. Others, who have not been cultivated, only receive the gospel superficially, like the second soil of Matthew 13. But more cultivation over time may result is a deep comment, one that the Lord will credit as righteousness, and therefore place the cultivated individual in Christ. We plant and water, but God causes the increase.

(6) When God chooses (elects) an individual He places them spiritually in Christ. This is called the sanctification by the Spirit, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, or the sanctifying work of the Spirit, 1 Peter 1:2. In any event, this is our individual election for salvation during our lifetime based on God crediting our faith as righteousness, thus a conditional election.

(7) So we do not have "free will", some with hardened hearts have no ability to receive the gospel, others due to lack of cultivation are currently unable to make a full commitment, and still others like the gospel, but are unwilling to subordinate the treasures they see in this world, materials or relationships. So in our fallen state, if not hardened, we have a limited ability to receive the milk of the gospel, that can be lost by the practice of sin, and can be enhanced by cultivation and watering. Thus as ambassadors of Christ we should beseech, beg, and plead with the lost, "be reconciled to God." ​

 

He will say God "loves" everyone by showing you that the rain shines upon the just and the un-just and that God does nothing (in this life) to intentionally torment the un-saved. Now, mind you, if to "love" someone is to desire their "true and ultimate flourishing" and also that for a human "true and ultimate flourishing" is to have eternal peace with God.....................................
Than Icon cannot honestly claim that he believes that God "loves" everyone.

Let's see how he spins this:

 

why do you negate Christ's Atonement ?

if adam's transgression had the power to conclude all under sin(many were made sinners)

do you not think that the Atonement had just as much power(many SHALL BE made righteous) ??

it wasn't if some chose to sin after adam that made them sinners--it was 1 man's sin that made all sinners

it isn't if some choose Christ(although God does elect those whom he chooses for the times that he purposes)but MANY SHALL BE(future tense) made(God's working)Righteous

 

Be gentle, he's attempting to learn these things.

- Blessings

 

My will was not to come to Jesus. It was not my will at all.My will was to continue in darkness. Through the work of God through His word that got my free agency to say not my will but your will be done. To say Lord save me or I will perish. That before being in Christ I was predestined to destruction that He truly saved me from perishing.

I Believe in a free agency not a free will the will has to be beat into submission.

 

wasn't trying to be mean--apologize if it came across that way--was just trying to make a contrast between the 2 :jesus::jesus::jesus:

 

Eccelente!

There is an example of this one verse (well 2)

" For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again." 2 Cor 5:14

Here you have those who were dead, ALL DEAD compared with those who Christ died for ALL.

Then verse 15 refers to those the ones Christ died for and FOLLOWED HIM.

The Calvinist method is to show that since since v 15 says "to THEM" that is excluding that ALL of verse 14.

Illustration:

A CEO has a meeting with his employees, gathers them all in a big room, 500 capacity. The CEO tells ALL OF THEM "I am offering ALL OF YOU a bonus check if you want it, but you will have to come receive it in the back room in 15 minutes".

Fifteen minutes later, 200 employees meet the CEO in the back room and receive their check. The CEO makes a speech, "I offered you a gift and ALL OF YOU received it".

Now, when the CEO said this to the 200, did that mean that he did NOT offer it to ALL 500? No, it was offered to all, but only some CHOSE to receive it.

The newspapers then read, "CEFFERS MAJOR BONUS CHECK TO 500 PEOPLE". Even though there were only 200 people that received it, that the CEO spoke to both 200 people, and 500 both at the same time is not a contradiction. If the CEO said that he offered the check ONLY to 200 people, and 500 at the same time, then you have an explicit contradiction.

Do not fall for the Calvinist "sleight of hand" interpretation of scripture. Jesus offered a bonus check for ALL even though only some choose to receive the check.

 

the Death passed upon all men from adam was indeed body,soul,spirit at the point of bodily death--and at the resurrection man was brought back to life and judged according to his deeds on this earth--whether good or bad.Christ really did die the same death as man not just his fleshly body died-but HE himself died(what a Glorius thought that GOD died (but raised from the dead after 3 days and nights in the heart of the earth)for mankind so that by Christ's resurrection--mankind could be raised from the DEATH also:godisgood:

 

Here's a question for all to ponder.

How many trying to convince Awaken, stopped what they were doing for a minute and PRAYED FOR HIM to understand what he seeks for?