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free will vs. election???????

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Thousand Hills

Active Member
through 1 Man's disobedience(Adam) many(ALL) were made sinners

So fellowship/relationship with God was lost through Adam's free will choice to disobey. thus sin entered the picture because of disobedience.

What happened in the fall, did it?
(1) bring only physical death, in which case we'd still be able to spiritually discern and choose right from wrong.
(2) bring both spiritual death and physical death, in which case a dead man doesn't have much option to do anything for himself.

If physical death is all the fall brought, and we have the same free will as Adam:
(1) Why did Paul write that we were slaves to sin? Can't we just choose to do good and be okay?
(2) Why did Christ have to die at all, I mean couldn't he have just stayed on earth preaching and doing miracles and convince man that he was God's son.
 

HisWitness

New Member
So fellowship/relationship with God was lost through Adam's free will choice to disobey. thus sin entered the picture because of disobedience.

What happened in the fall, did it?
(1) bring only physical death, in which case we'd still be able to spiritually discern and choose right from wrong.
(2) bring both spiritual death and physical death, in which case a dead man doesn't have much option to do anything for himself.

If physical death is all the fall brought, and we have the same free will as Adam:
(1) Why did Paul write that we were slaves to sin? Can't we just choose to do good and be okay?
(2) Why did Christ have to die at all, I mean couldn't he have just stayed on earth preaching and doing miracles and convince man that he was God's son.
The fall brought Body,soul,and spirt DEATH--when men died they didn't just die bodily--but all 3 parts of man dies soul,spirit,body--until the Resurrection occurred and raised them--this was the DEATH that was swallowed up in Victory--what came in through Adam's Sin--was defeated and destroyed through 1 man's(Christ) obedience--that was DEATH
 

awaken

Active Member
Awaken,

simply put....election

Did you save your self or did God do it?.....ans..God did it.

Did he save you on purpose, or was it an accident?....ans....on purpose.

That is election.....He loved you, because He loved you...
But doesn't God love everyone?
All this is a little overwhelming...but I am willing to have an open mind!

I have been taught so many wrong doctrines...but once I see it in scriptures I embrace it!

I still have more questions than answers on this subject!
 

awaken

Active Member
Christ came to undo what Adam brought forth unto all mankind--men want to try and make adam's transgression more powerful than Crist's Atonement--but they are only fooling themselves with false tradition--but its plainly taught that what was lost in Adam was regained in Christ:godisgood:
Ok, I believe this! Adam lost it because of sin...Christ died that we could be reconciled back to God, right?

So some are reconciled and some are not, right?
Is it by our choice? Jesus paid the price...but we have to receive that payment as our own, right?
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
False dicotomy

I have read many threads on free will vs. election on this board. I did not realize how many Baptist really believe that only certain ones are chosen and others are rejected, because of what ground? Is it their sin? Is it that God shows favoritism?

I thought we were all sinners? I thought Christ died for all sinners? I thought God called all to repentance? I would like to hear from some of those that believe this. Be elementary with me because I have never discussed or searched this out or saw a need to. (Please give only milk concerning this subject...lol)

First question I have is where does it say Christ only died for a few?

1) There are scriptures that indicate Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all. That even false teachers who deny Christ have been bought. But other scriptures indicate Christ died for the church, i.e. those actually saved.

Calvinism claims it is one or the other, and they say Christ died only for those saved. However, an alternate view is both are true, Christ died for all mankind, becoming the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, which includes everyone saved. There is therefore no need to nullify scripture or pick one verse and overwrite another.

2) Calvinism uses words found in scripture but redefines them according to their man-made theology. Election simply means choice, electing to pick this over that. Calvinism uses the word as code for God choosing certain foreseen individuals before creation for salvation. They base this on Ephesians 1:4 which says He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world. You cannot tell, from the immediate context whether this refers to choosing corporately all those who would be subsequently redeemed by the Lamb of God, or individually chosen. Other verses preclude this "election" being individual. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says we were chosen through faith in the truth. Nobody had faith before they lived, heard the gospel, and responded in wholehearted faith.
Thus if we are chosen individually during our lifetime based on God crediting our faith as righteousness, we were chosen corporately, i.e. as the target group of God's redemption plan, before creation. Several verses indicate our individual election for salvation occurs during out lifetime, after we have lived without mercy, i.e. 1 Peter 2:9-10.

3) Does God show favoritism? God does not favor individuals based on the world's value system. Not many well born, powerful, or well educated were chosen. But according to His value system He does show favoritism. God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble. So here again, we have a biblical doctrine, God does not play favorites according to the world's value system being taken too far which creates conflict with many verses where God chooses those of faith and humility and love and places them spiritually "in Christ" the sanctifying work of the Spirit.

4) The controversy concerning "free will versus election" is not a mystery at all. God says whoever believes in Him shall not perish. In order not to perish, God must choose (elect) the individual based on crediting their faith, as flawed as it is, as righteousness, and place then in Christ.

So the biblical order is this:
(1) God chose His Lamb before the foundation of the world. 1 Peter 1:19-20.

(2) He chose us [those redeemed] in Him before the foundation of the world. Ephesians 1:4. You do not choose a Redeemer without a plan to redeem, thus in choosing Christ, He chose us [corporately] in Him [when He chose His Redeemer] before creation.

(3) Adam sinned and the result was the condemnation of all men, the many (all men except Christ) were made sinners in a separated from God, corrupted sinful condition.

(4) Christ died for all men, providing the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, all mankind. However, only those who "receive" the reconciliation offered by the shed blood of Christ, are saved, washed with His blood, made alive, born anew, made a new creation, and are sealed with the Holy Spirit as a pledge for being resurrected to eternal life at Christ's second coming.

(5) The Holy Spirit inspired the NT writers to provide the gospel of Christ to all those who hear and understand. Some men, the first soil of Matthew 13:1-23, have been hardened and cannot understand. Others, who have not been cultivated, only receive the gospel superficially, like the second soil of Matthew 13. But more cultivation over time may result is a deep comment, one that the Lord will credit as righteousness, and therefore place the cultivated individual in Christ. We plant and water, but God causes the increase.

(6) When God chooses (elects) an individual He places them spiritually in Christ. This is called the sanctification by the Spirit, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, or the sanctifying work of the Spirit, 1 Peter 1:2. In any event, this is our individual election for salvation during our lifetime based on God crediting our faith as righteousness, thus a conditional election.

(7) So we do not have "free will", some with hardened hearts have no ability to receive the gospel, others due to lack of cultivation are currently unable to make a full commitment, and still others like the gospel, but are unwilling to subordinate the treasures they see in this world, materials or relationships. So in our fallen state, if not hardened, we have a limited ability to receive the milk of the gospel, that can be lost by the practice of sin, and can be enhanced by cultivation and watering. Thus as ambassadors of Christ we should beseech, beg, and plead with the lost, "be reconciled to God."​
 
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HeirofSalvation

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
But doesn't God love everyone?
All this is a little overwhelming...but I am willing to have an open mind!
He will say God "loves" everyone by showing you that the rain shines upon the just and the un-just and that God does nothing (in this life) to intentionally torment the un-saved. Now, mind you, if to "love" someone is to desire their "true and ultimate flourishing" and also that for a human "true and ultimate flourishing" is to have eternal peace with God.....................................
Than Icon cannot honestly claim that he believes that God "loves" everyone.

Let's see how he spins this:
 

HisWitness

New Member
Ok, I believe this! Adam lost it because of sin...Christ died that we could be reconciled back to God, right?

So some are reconciled and some are not, right?
Is it by our choice? Jesus paid the price...but we have to receive that payment as our own, right?

why do you negate Christ's Atonement ?

if adam's transgression had the power to conclude all under sin(many were made sinners)

do you not think that the Atonement had just as much power(many SHALL BE made righteous) ??

it wasn't if some chose to sin after adam that made them sinners--it was 1 man's sin that made all sinners

it isn't if some choose Christ(although God does elect those whom he chooses for the times that he purposes)but MANY SHALL BE(future tense) made(God's working)Righteous
 

preacher4truth

Active Member
why do you negate Christ's Atonement ?

if adam's transgression had the power to conclude all under sin(many were made sinners)

do you not think that the Atonement had just as much power(many SHALL BE made righteous) ??

it wasn't if some chose to sin after adam that made them sinners--it was 1 man's sin that made all sinners

it isn't if some choose Christ(although God does elect those whom he chooses for the times that he purposes)but MANY SHALL BE(future tense) made(God's working)Righteous

Be gentle, he's attempting to learn these things.

- Blessings
 

awaken

Active Member
Being elementary is a great place to start. 2 Cor 11:3.

"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ."

Ask yourself this: does having several different "creeds" that have to be interpreted and defined outside of the Bible sound simple??

2 Corinthians 5:14 says, " For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead" So who all is dead here? SOME? "ALL is dead". So if only SOME are elected, then the logical implications would be that only SOME are dead. But if ALL means that ALL are dead, that means that Christ died for ALL not just the elect.

This does not mean that just because Christ died for all, that all will be saved. That's why free will is important because God designed His plan of salvation for men to choose freely: "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely" Rev 22:16.

What Calvinism does is reads man-made philosophy and human reasoning into the plain and obvious meaning of Scripture. When John 11:35 says, "Jesus wept", it means Jesus wept! It doesn't mean that Jesus was symbolically sympathizing with the family of Lazarus and this weeping was symptomatic of internal turmoil brought about by deep seeted and historically held pent up repressed memories. THAT is what Calvinism does, takes the plain meaning of a verse and inserts things it does not say.

When the Bible says, "God so loved the world", you do not dissect it like "well world could mean the soil or only part of those living in Israel because kosmos is often used to describe those relative to a certain location". NO, when the Bible says, God so love the world it means GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD.

Isn't that simple? That is elementary. God never intended for the gospel to be complicated.

One way to prove to yourself how the gospel is applied, is study the sermons that the apostles preached in Acts. The phrase you will hear over and over again is "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" as in invitation to trust and receive Christ.

If Jesus, Paul, Peter, told their listeners to "COME", why would they appeal to EVERYONE LISTENING, if they KNEW that only some would be saved based on election? If you ever listen to a Calvinist gospel invitation, they are never honest about their Calvinism in their invitation. If they were, they would say, "You have the chance to receive Christ right now, but only if you are elect. Some of you hearing this message are going to hell because you are not elect, so this message really isn't for you". Doesn't that sound absurd? But yet that is exactly the implications of Calvinism. If and when some do give gospel invitations, at that moment they become Free Willers then go back to being Calvinists when the invitation is over.
THis is more in line what I was taught and believe! As you said it seems simple!

I see Jesus dying for ALL...but not all will receive him!
 

psalms109:31

Active Member
My will was not to come to Jesus. It was not my will at all.My will was to continue in darkness. Through the work of God through His word that got my free agency to say not my will but your will be done. To say Lord save me or I will perish. That before being in Christ I was predestined to destruction that He truly saved me from perishing.

I Believe in a free agency not a free will the will has to be beat into submission.
 

awaken

Active Member
So fellowship/relationship with God was lost through Adam's free will choice to disobey. thus sin entered the picture because of disobedience.

What happened in the fall, did it?
(1) bring only physical death, in which case we'd still be able to spiritually discern and choose right from wrong.
(2) bring both spiritual death and physical death, in which case a dead man doesn't have much option to do anything for himself.

If physical death is all the fall brought, and we have the same free will as Adam:
(1) Why did Paul write that we were slaves to sin? Can't we just choose to do good and be okay?
(2) Why did Christ have to die at all, I mean couldn't he have just stayed on earth preaching and doing miracles and convince man that he was God's son.
Christ did have to die! So why just for a few or selected ones? Why not for all to have the same chance?
 

awaken

Active Member
The fall brought Body,soul,and spirt DEATH--when men died they didn't just die bodily--but all 3 parts of man dies soul,spirit,body--until the Resurrection occurred and raised them--this was the DEATH that was swallowed up in Victory--what came in through Adam's Sin--was defeated and destroyed through 1 man's(Christ) obedience--that was DEATH
Spiritual death is disconnection/or right standing with God, right?
Everyone has a spirit and will live forever...somewhere, right? So the spirit itself does die! Because without the spirit we all would die, right?
 
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DrJamesAch

New Member
1) There are scriptures that indicate Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all. That even false teachers who deny Christ have been bought. But other scriptures indicate Christ died for the church, i.e. those actually saved.

.Calvinism claims it is one or the other, and they say Christ died only for those saved. However, an alternate view is both are true, Christ died for all mankind, becoming the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, which includes everyone saved. There is therefore no need to nullify scripture or pick one verse and overwrite another.

2) Calvinism uses words found in scripture but redefines them according to their man-made theology. Election simply means choice, electing to pick this over that. Calvinism uses the word as code for God choosing certain foreseen individuals before creation for salvation. They base this on Ephesians 1:4 which says He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world. You cannot tell, from the immediate context whether this refers to choosing corporately all those who would be subsequently redeemed by the Lamb of God, or individually chosen. Other verses preclude this "election" being individual. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says we were chosen through faith in the truth. Nobody had faith before they lived, heard the gospel, and responded in wholehearted faith.
Thus if we are chosen individually during our lifetime based on God crediting our faith as righteousness, we were chosen corporately, i.e. as the target group of God's redemption plan, before creation. Several verses indicate our individual election for salvation occurs during out lifetime, after we have lived without mercy, i.e. 1 Peter 2:9-10.

3) Does God show favoritism? God does not favor individuals based on the world's value system. Not many well born, powerful, or well educated were chosen. But according to His value system He does show favoritism. God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble. So here again, we have a biblical doctrine, God does not play favorites according to the world's value system being taken too far which creates conflict with many verses where God chooses those of faith and humility and love and places them spiritually "in Christ" the sanctifying work of the Spirit.

4) The controversy concerning "free will versus election" is not a mystery at all. God says whoever believes in Him shall not perish. In order not to perish, God must choose (elect) the individual based on crediting their faith, as flawed as it is, as righteousness, and place then in Christ.

So the biblical order is this:
(1) God chose His Lamb before the foundation of the world. 1 Peter 1:19-20.

(2) He chose us [those redeemed] in Him before the foundation of the world. Ephesians 1:4. You do not choose a Redeemer without a plan to redeem, thus in choosing Christ, He chose us [corporately] in Him [when He chose His Redeemer] before creation.

(3) Adam sinned and the result was the condemnation of all men, the many (all men except Christ) were made sinners in a separated from God, corrupted sinful condition.

(4) Christ died for all men, providing the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, all mankind. However, only those who "receive" the reconciliation offered by the shed blood of Christ, are saved, washed with His blood, made alive, born anew, made a new creation, and are sealed with the Holy Spirit as a pledge for being resurrected to eternal life at Christ's second coming.

(5) The Holy Spirit inspired the NT writers to provide the gospel of Christ to all those who hear and understand. Some men, the first soil of Matthew 13:1-23, have been hardened and cannot understand. Others, who have not been cultivated, only receive the gospel superficially, like the second soil of Matthew 13. But more cultivation over time may result is a deep comment, one that the Lord will credit as righteousness, and therefore place the cultivated individual in Christ. We plant and water, but God causes the increase.

(6) When God chooses (elects) an individual He places them spiritually in Christ. This is called the sanctification by the Spirit, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, or the sanctifying work of the Spirit, 1 Peter 1:2. In any event, this is our individual election for salvation during our lifetime based on God crediting our faith as righteousness, thus a conditional election.

(7) So we do not have "free will", some with hardened hearts have no ability to receive the gospel, others due to lack of cultivation are currently unable to make a full commitment, and still others like the gospel, but are unwilling to subordinate the treasures they see in this world, materials or relationships. So in our fallen state, if not hardened, we have a limited ability to receive the milk of the gospel, that can be lost by the practice of sin, and can be enhanced by cultivation and watering. Thus as ambassadors of Christ we should beseech, beg, and plead with the lost, "be reconciled to God."​

Eccelente!

Calvinism claims it is one or the other, and they say Christ died only for those saved. However, an alternate view is both are true, Christ died for all mankind, becoming the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, which includes everyone saved. There is therefore no need to nullify scripture or pick one verse and overwrite another.

There is an example of this one verse (well 2)

" For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again." 2 Cor 5:14

Here you have those who were dead, ALL DEAD compared with those who Christ died for ALL.

Then verse 15 refers to those the ones Christ died for and FOLLOWED HIM.

The Calvinist method is to show that since since v 15 says "to THEM" that is excluding that ALL of verse 14.

Illustration:

A CEO has a meeting with his employees, gathers them all in a big room, 500 capacity. The CEO tells ALL OF THEM "I am offering ALL OF YOU a bonus check if you want it, but you will have to come receive it in the back room in 15 minutes".

Fifteen minutes later, 200 employees meet the CEO in the back room and receive their check. The CEO makes a speech, "I offered you a gift and ALL OF YOU received it".

Now, when the CEO said this to the 200, did that mean that he did NOT offer it to ALL 500? No, it was offered to all, but only some CHOSE to receive it.

The newspapers then read, "CEO OFFERS MAJOR BONUS CHECK TO 500 PEOPLE". Even though there were only 200 people that received it, that the CEO spoke to both 200 people, and 500 both at the same time is not a contradiction. If the CEO said that he offered the check ONLY to 200 people, and 500 at the same time, then you have an explicit contradiction.

Do not fall for the Calvinist "sleight of hand" interpretation of scripture. Jesus offered a bonus check for ALL even though only some choose to receive the check.
 

awaken

Active Member
why do you negate Christ's Atonement ?

if adam's transgression had the power to conclude all under sin(many were made sinners)

do you not think that the Atonement had just as much power(many SHALL BE made righteous) ??

it wasn't if some chose to sin after adam that made them sinners--it was 1 man's sin that made all sinners

it isn't if some choose Christ(although God does elect those whom he chooses for the times that he purposes)but MANY SHALL BE(future tense) made(God's working)Righteous
OK..these kind of questions are confusing to me!

What was changed in Adam to make all become sinners (born sinners)?
What is changed in us when we become a child of God?
 

HisWitness

New Member
Spiritual death is disconnection/or right standing with God, right?
Everyone has a spirit and will live forever...somewhere, right? So the spirit itself does die! Because without the spirit we all would die, right?

the Death passed upon all men from adam was indeed body,soul,spirit at the point of bodily death--and at the resurrection man was brought back to life and judged according to his deeds on this earth--whether good or bad.Christ really did die the same death as man not just his fleshly body died-but HE himself died(what a Glorius thought that GOD died (but raised from the dead after 3 days and nights in the heart of the earth)for mankind so that by Christ's resurrection--mankind could be raised from the DEATH also:godisgood:
 

awaken

Active Member
My will was not to come to Jesus. It was not my will at all.My will was to continue in darkness. Through the work of God through His word that got my free agency to say not my will but your will be done. To say Lord save me or I will perish. That before being in Christ I was predestined to destruction that He truly saved me from perishing.

I Believe in a free agency not a free will the will has to be beat into submission.
I fight my will daily! Even after being born again!
So you believe that the Holy Spirit draws all to salvation...but some will not respond?
 

DrJamesAch

New Member
Here's a question for all to ponder.

How many trying to convince Awaken, stopped what they were doing for a minute and PRAYED FOR HIM to understand what he seeks for?
 

awaken

Active Member
Thanks for all the reponses! A lot to think about!

Another question that comes to mind is...Why are we called to witness to people if God has already saved only certain ones?
 
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