Fear and OSAS

[Thomas Helwys]

The more I read, the more evident it is that those who so vehemently defend OSAS are bound up in fear: They are afraid of the idea that we possess a free will and that it remains free after conversion. They are afraid of such freedom. But that simply dishonors and misunderstands God's nature.

I rejoice in the fact that God loved me enough to want me to freely love Him and stay loyal to Him, as coerced loyalty is no true loyalty at all. Along with the Bible and the church for 1500 years, this is also how I know without a doubt that OSAS is false doctrine: it is contrary to God's nature. It goes right along with the legalistic, deterministic fatalism that is Calvinism which is diametrically opposed to the truth of God's nature and thus the nature of all humans and angels. God has always given everyone the freedom to choose whether to accept Him, love Him, and be loyal to Him, and He does not take away that freedom and ability to choose after conversion. He cannot do that because He cannot do anything contrary to Who He is.

Those who hold to OSAS are afraid of the freedom that God gives them.

 

[12strings]

The more I read, the more evident it is that those who so vehemently defend OSAS are bound up in fear: They are afraid of the idea that we possess a free will and that it remains free after conversion. They are afraid of such freedom. But that simply dishonors and misunderstands God's nature.

I rejoice in the fact that God loved me enough to want me to freely love Him and stay loyal to Him, as coerced loyalty is no true loyalty at all. Along with the Bible and the church for 1500 years, this is also how I know without a doubt that OSAS is false doctrine: it is contrary to God's nature. It goes right along with the legalistic, deterministic fatalism that is Calvinism which is diametrically opposed to the truth of God's nature and thus the nature of all humans and angels. God has always given everyone the freedom to choose whether to accept Him, love Him, and be loyal to Him, and He does not take away that freedom and ability to choose after conversion. He cannot do that because He cannot do anything contrary to Who He is.

Those who hold to OSAS are afraid of the freedom that God gives them.

1. Hi Thomas, sorry not to see you posting much up in the baptist section anymore.

2. I don't think you can relegate all belief in OSAS to fear, because there are those of us who ACTUALLY BELIEVE THE BIBLE TEACHES IT! (Imagine that). We have looked at both sides of the issue and believe that several key passages point to a security that a true believer will not become an unbeleiver.

3. How does this ultimate freedom God gives us work in heaven and the new creation? Do you believe people will occasionally be abandoning their faith for all eternity? And if you say, "Well, God's glory will be so great that they won't want to abandon him." Isn't that still a kind of limit God is imposing on our wills?

 

[steaver]

The more I read, the more evident it is that those who so vehemently defend OSAS are bound up in fear: They are afraid of the idea that we possess a free will and that it remains free after conversion. They are afraid of such freedom. But that simply dishonors and misunderstands God's nature.

I rejoice in the fact that God loved me enough to want me to freely love Him and stay loyal to Him, as coerced loyalty is no true loyalty at all. Along with the Bible and the church for 1500 years, this is also how I know without a doubt that OSAS is false doctrine: it is contrary to God's nature. It goes right along with the legalistic, deterministic fatalism that is Calvinism which is diametrically opposed to the truth of God's nature and thus the nature of all humans and angels. God has always given everyone the freedom to choose whether to accept Him, love Him, and be loyal to Him, and He does not take away that freedom and ability to choose after conversion. He cannot do that because He cannot do anything contrary to Who He is.

Those who hold to OSAS are afraid of the freedom that God gives them.

What I take out of the OSAS debates is the opponents of OSAS believe the OSAS proponents do not fear God. They call it "easy believism" and say those who hold to OSAS just like to sin at will without any fear of God's nature to punish sin.

I've found there are differing view points which come out from the anti-OSAS camp, and the camp is divided about how one would lose their salvation after being born again.

1) you will lose your salvation for any kind of sin, one must never sin.

2) you will lose your salvation for only "habitual" sin, no one can define what is meant by "habitual" though.

3) you can lose your salvation for unrepented of sin, if in the act of a sin and you were to die, you would lose your salvation.

4) you can lose your salvation for lack of "continuing" works, past works do not count, there must be works being performed always.

5) one can lose their salvation by stopping to believe in Jesus Christ, which is stopping to believe in that which they have a personal knowledge of is an absolute truth. This one sounds very strange.

I am curious as to which position you would take Thomas. Is it sin, disobedience (same as sin I guess) , is it lack of good works (how many short or none at all, do past works count or must they be active each day) , is it sins unrepented of (although not currently active in) , is it simply by faith alone and one deciding they will not believe in Jesus anymore (not sure why that would be if it is by faith alone and not works or sin) .

 

[Revmitchell]

The more I read, the more evident it is that those who so vehemently defend OSAS are bound up in fear: They are afraid of the idea that we possess a free will and that it remains free after conversion. They are afraid of such freedom. But that simply dishonors and misunderstands God's nature.

I rejoice in the fact that God loved me enough to want me to freely love Him and stay loyal to Him, as coerced loyalty is no true loyalty at all. Along with the Bible and the church for 1500 years, this is also how I know without a doubt that OSAS is false doctrine: it is contrary to God's nature. It goes right along with the legalistic, deterministic fatalism that is Calvinism which is diametrically opposed to the truth of God's nature and thus the nature of all humans and angels. God has always given everyone the freedom to choose whether to accept Him, love Him, and be loyal to Him, and He does not take away that freedom and ability to choose after conversion. He cannot do that because He cannot do anything contrary to Who He is.

Those who hold to OSAS are afraid of the freedom that God gives them.

Assigning motive as if you can read the hearts of others is one of the problems that creates so much hostility around here. You need to behave yourself.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

The more I read, the more evident it is that those who so vehemently defend OSAS are bound up in fear: They are afraid of the idea that we possess a free will and that it remains free after conversion. They are afraid of such freedom. But that simply dishonors and misunderstands God's nature.

I rejoice in the fact that God loved me enough to want me to freely love Him and stay loyal to Him, as coerced loyalty is no true loyalty at all. Along with the Bible and the church for 1500 years, this is also how I know without a doubt that OSAS is false doctrine: it is contrary to God's nature. It goes right along with the legalistic, deterministic fatalism that is Calvinism which is diametrically opposed to the truth of God's nature and thus the nature of all humans and angels. God has always given everyone the freedom to choose whether to accept Him, love Him, and be loyal to Him, and He does not take away that freedom and ability to choose after conversion. He cannot do that because He cannot do anything contrary to Who He is.

Those who hold to OSAS are afraid of the freedom that God gives them.

Yeah, that must be it.

 

[BobRyan]

The more I read, the more evident it is that those who so vehemently defend OSAS are bound up in fear: They are afraid of the idea that we possess a free will and that it remains free after conversion. They are afraid of such freedom. But that simply dishonors and misunderstands God's nature.

I rejoice in the fact that God loved me enough to want me to freely love Him and stay loyal to Him, as coerced loyalty is no true loyalty at all. .

The problem with Calvinism is to the degree that it tries to "be god". Calvinism wonders how it is that God can possibly know the future - and then gives a human down-sized answer that God must be the great puppet master and causes all to obey or to rebel so that he can know the future with absolute certainty - using the tactics a lowly human would have to resort to so that a mere many also would be able to know the future - i.e. making himself the great puppet master.

But God does not stoop to puppet-master tactics so He "can" know the future. And this is the confusing part to the Calvinist.

Rather in Rom 2:11 "God is NOT partial" arbitrarily selecting some for eternal life and others for hell - just when Calvinism wants to have it otherwise.

But the truth is that 1,3 and 5 point Calvinism is the worst news possible for assurance of salvation - because "The Arminian can KNOW for certainty that he/she is saved today - but cannot know that 10 years from today he/she will choose to Persevere -- by contrast the Calvinist cannot even know that" because the Calvinist (1,3,5 pointers) will "retro-delete" today assurance when they discover that 10 years from today they "failed to persevere".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[JohnDeereFan]

The problem with Calvinism is to the degree that it tries to "be god". Calvinism wonders how it is that God can possibly know the future - and then gives a human down-sized answer that God must be the great puppet master and causes all to obey or to rebel so that he can know the future with absolute certainty - using the tactics a lowly human would have to resort to so that a mere many also would be able to know the future - i.e. making himself the great puppet master.

...thus demonstrating your ignorance of Calvinism.

 

[preacher4truth]

The problem with Calvinism is to the degree that it tries to "be god". Calvinism wonders how it is that God can possibly know the future - and then gives a human down-sized answer that God must be the great puppet master and causes all to obey or to rebel so that he can know the future with absolute certainty - using the tactics a lowly human would have to resort to so that a mere many also would be able to know the future - i.e. making himself the great puppet master.

But God does not stoop to puppet-master tactics so He "can" know the future. And this is the confusing part to the Calvinist.

Bob

You have no clue what you're talking about. No Calvinist wonders how it is that God can possibly know the future. Your accusation is unfounded drivel.

Aren't you the same guy that worships EGW the false prophet? Well yes, and that explains it.

 

[preacher4truth]

...thus demonstrating your ignorance of Calvinism.

These types dream up some new straw man caricature daily and then others band-wagoners jump in on their incompetent false conclusions and agree with it. It just reinforces that each who do so are in complete ignorance of this Biblical doctrine.

Then of course we have Bob who believes new revelations are happening. Maybe he looked into a hat and came up with this, or maybe EGW visited him and planted this obtuse idea into his mind.

 

[drfuss]

The problem with Calvinism is to the degree that it tries to "be god". Calvinism wonders how it is that God can possibly know the future - and then gives a human down-sized answer that God must be the great puppet master and causes all to obey or to rebel so that he can know the future with absolute certainty - using the tactics a lowly human would have to resort to so that a mere many also would be able to know the future - i.e. making himself the great puppet master.

But God does not stoop to puppet-master tactics so He "can" know the future. And this is the confusing part to the Calvinist.

Rather in Rom 2:11 "God is NOT partial" arbitrarily selecting some for eternal life and others for hell - just when Calvinism wants to have it otherwise.

But the truth is that 1,3 and 5 point Calvinism is the worst news possible for assurance of salvation - because "The Arminian can KNOW for certainty that he/she is saved today - but cannot know that 10 years from today he/she will choose to Persevere -- by contrast the Calvinist cannot even know that" because the Calvinist (1,3,5 pointers) will "retro-delete" today assurance when they discover that 10 years from today they "failed to persevere".

in Christ,

Bob

Calvinism and OSAS are two different things. Calvinism - perseverance of the saints. OSAS - preservation of the saints.

 

[preacher4truth]

Calvinism and OSAS are two different things. Calvinism - perseverance of the saints. OSAS - preservation of the saints.

Your description muddies the truth here. Both are one in the same. You as well as many others misunderstand the teaching of perseverance and attempt to make a distinction in order to denigrate the Calvinist view and to make them contrary teachings when in fact they are not.

This helps explain the reason for arriving at a false assumption about this teaching:

'Because the term “perseverance of the saints” can cause people to have the wrong idea about what is meant, some people prefer to use terms like “preservation of the saints,” “eternal security,” or “held by God.” Each of these terms reveals some aspect of what the Bible teaches about the security of the believer. However, like any biblical doctrine, what is important is not the name assigned to the doctrine but how accurately it summarizes what the Bible teaches about that subject. No matter which name you use to refer to this important doctrine, a thorough study of the Bible will reveal that, when it is properly understood, it is an accurate description of what the Bible teaches'.*

There is no difference between perseverance of the saints or preservation of the saints to the Calvinist. Any person trying to prove these are opposed or different strain at only the title (perseverance of the saints) and do so in ignorance of what we truly hold to -- the distinction resides only in the mind of a non or anti Calvinist.

* quote is from gotquestions.org

 

[The Biblicist]

The more I read, the more evident it is that those who so vehemently defend OSAS are bound up in fear: They are afraid of the idea that we possess a free will and that it remains free after conversion. They are afraid of such freedom. But that simply dishonors and misunderstands God's nature.

Now you are trying to play God and tell us our motives? I have challenged you repeatedly to provide a contextual based response to any post I have given on John 6 and you have not. I have repeatedly asked you to point out any thread where you have provided such a contextual based response to John 6:37-39 and you have not yet provided it.

Now if you want to talk about "fear" it is quite evident to me you are totally afraid to even attempt to address John 6:37-39 from a contextual based view.

If you want to talk about "fear" then nothing is more motivating for the doctrine of justification by works than 'fear" of coming short. Indeed, you cannot even define what that is, since there is no time in your own life you do not come short of "the glory of God."

 

[drfuss]

Your description muddies the truth here. Both are one in the same. You as well as many others misunderstand the teaching of perseverance and attempt to make a distinction in order to denigrate the Calvinist view and to make them contrary teachings when in fact they are not.

This helps explain the reason for arriving at a false assumption about this teaching:

'Because the term “perseverance of the saints” can cause people to have the wrong idea about what is meant, some people prefer to use terms like “preservation of the saints,” “eternal security,” or “held by God.” Each of these terms reveals some aspect of what the Bible teaches about the security of the believer. However, like any biblical doctrine, what is important is not the name assigned to the doctrine but how accurately it summarizes what the Bible teaches about that subject. No matter which name you use to refer to this important doctrine, a thorough study of the Bible will reveal that, when it is properly understood, it is an accurate description of what the Bible teaches'.*

There is no difference between perseverance of the saints or preservation of the saints to the Calvinist. Any person trying to prove these are opposed or different strain at only the title (perseverance of the saints) and do so in ignorance of what we truly hold to -- the distinction resides only in the mind of a non or anti Calvinist.

* quote is from gotquestions.org

I was referring to Bob Ryan's post terminology. Actually, I agree that perservance of the saints, preservation of the saints, forfeiting your salvation, and losing your salvation beliefs are basically the same except for definitions, terminology, and a play on words concerning the security of the saints. The Stanley/hodges ES version is different in that one does not have to be trusting in Christ when they die and still go to heaven.

 

[Yeshua1]

The more I read, the more evident it is that those who so vehemently defend OSAS are bound up in fear: They are afraid of the idea that we possess a free will and that it remains free after conversion. They are afraid of such freedom. But that simply dishonors and misunderstands God's nature.

I rejoice in the fact that God loved me enough to want me to freely love Him and stay loyal to Him, as coerced loyalty is no true loyalty at all. Along with the Bible and the church for 1500 years, this is also how I know without a doubt that OSAS is false doctrine: it is contrary to God's nature. It goes right along with the legalistic, deterministic fatalism that is Calvinism which is diametrically opposed to the truth of God's nature and thus the nature of all humans and angels. God has always given everyone the freedom to choose whether to accept Him, love Him, and be loyal to Him, and He does not take away that freedom and ability to choose after conversion. He cannot do that because He cannot do anything contrary to Who He is.

Those who hold to OSAS are afraid of the freedom that God gives them.

Actually, those against the concept live in fear, as NEVER with full assurance that they are still right with God, fnot sure if they have kept law well nouhg, love God enough, did right things, basically focusing on what they can do, NOT what God has done!

Also can be prideful, as can use it to 'show off" just how 'spiritual" I am by my things done!

 

[Winman]

The more I read, the more evident it is that those who so vehemently defend OSAS are bound up in fear: They are afraid of the idea that we possess a free will and that it remains free after conversion. They are afraid of such freedom. But that simply dishonors and misunderstands God's nature.

I rejoice in the fact that God loved me enough to want me to freely love Him and stay loyal to Him, as coerced loyalty is no true loyalty at all. Along with the Bible and the church for 1500 years, this is also how I know without a doubt that OSAS is false doctrine: it is contrary to God's nature. It goes right along with the legalistic, deterministic fatalism that is Calvinism which is diametrically opposed to the truth of God's nature and thus the nature of all humans and angels. God has always given everyone the freedom to choose whether to accept Him, love Him, and be loyal to Him, and He does not take away that freedom and ability to choose after conversion. He cannot do that because He cannot do anything contrary to Who He is.

Those who hold to OSAS are afraid of the freedom that God gives them.

I am not a Calvinist, but I believe OSAS. I do not believe in perseverance of the saints, that is works salvation, I believe in preservation of the saints, that is, that I am kept by God, and this is why I cannot lose salvation.

Some of the scriptures that I believe support this;

Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Here, Jesus says the person who has believed on him has "passed" from death to life. It is a done deal, we are no longer dead in trespasses and sins. If all of our sins have been forgiven, how can we lose salvation?

Note that Jesus himself says we shall not come into condemnation. If we could stop believing in the future and become condemned again, then Jesus's words would not be true. And we know Jesus never lies.

2 Pet 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust

1 Cor 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

1 Jhn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

No person who has truly trusted Jesus will ever fall away, because he is now a new creature. Our spirit has been joined to the Holy Spirit and now we are one spirit. We are partakers of the divine nature. We cannot fall away in unbelief, because our "seed" remains in us and we cannot sin.

So, I am not saved because I will persevere and always be faithful to Jesus. Anybody who thinks that is fooling themselves. No, I am saved because Jesus will always be faithful to me. Anyone who sincerely comes to Jesus will be saved and in no wise cast out. And once we are saved we are joined to the Holy Spirit, we are sealed to the day of redemption. We are partakers of the divine nature, and we cannot fall away in sin because our seed (the Holy Spirit) remains in us.

Trust me, I am as far from Calvinism as you can possibly get, I believe Calvinism is the most false doctrine that ever came down the pike, but I believe once we trust Jesus we are always saved and cannot be lost.

 

[12strings]

I am not a Calvinist, but I believe OSAS. I do not believe in perseverance of the saints, that is works salvation, I believe in preservation of the saints, that is, that I am kept by God, and this is why I cannot lose salvation.

The Calvinistic Doctrine of Perserverance of the saints is not works salvation...It states basically the same thing you have said here: That God keeps those who come to faith in him...that he ENSURES that they will perservere to the end. Unless you believe a person can completely abandon belief in Christ, and still remain a Christian, but a Non-believer, then you believer very similarly to calvinists on this issue.

Trust me, I am as far from Calvinism as you can possibly get,

Actually, Thomas Helwys is farther, since he rejects OSAS. Also, Open Theism is farther away from Calvinism than you are.

I believe Calvinism is the most false doctrine that ever came down the pike.

What about Atheism? Or Pantheism? Or Arianism?

 

[Winman]

The Calvinistic Doctrine of Perserverance of the saints is not works salvation...It states basically the same thing you have said here: That God keeps those who come to faith in him...that he ENSURES that they will perservere to the end. Unless you believe a person can completely abandon belief in Christ, and still remain a Christian, but a Non-believer, then you believer very similarly to calvinists on this issue.

Right.

Actually, Thomas Helwys is farther, since he rejects OSAS. Also, Open Theism is farther away from Calvinism than you are.

Fine with me, the farther, the better.

What about Atheism? Or Pantheism? Or Arianism?

What about them? One false doctrine is just as bad as another.

 

[DHK]

The more I read, the more evident it is that those who so vehemently defend OSAS are bound up in fear: They are afraid of the idea that we possess a free will and that it remains free after conversion. They are afraid of such freedom. But that simply dishonors and misunderstands God's nature.

When I got saved I had never heard of Calvinism. In fact I never came across Calvinism until three years later when I entered into Bible College. It wasn't an issue back then. But I knew I was saved. I knew if I died that moment I would go to heaven. I knew that I couldn't lose my salvation. It had nothing to do with Calvinism--something I had never heard of. And it had nothing to do with fear--a false allegation.

When I got saved (after being in the RCC for 20 years), I was presented the gospel in a very simple manner--something similar to the "Romans Road." After I made that choice to receive Christ; to trust him as my Savior, those discussing the Bible with me went one step further.
They made sure that I would have an assurance of salvation.
They explained that the devil would come and try to make you doubt your salvation, the very thing that you had just did. They gave me a NT, and signed their names in it, and put the date there for a reminder to me of what I did, and the time and place. I could always point back to the time of my salvation without doubt. They gave me Scripture:
"He that has the Son has life; he that has not the son has not life."
They made it plain that I have the Son. I just prayed and trusted him.
Other Scriptures they explained well: John 5:24; 1John 5:11,12;

This was not called eternal security or OSAS. It was a simple assurance of salvation which I have to this day. I learned later on in life that that assurance of salvation which I had been relying on all these years is the same as eternal security. It is God that keeps my salvation. It is the promises of His Word. I have never feared anything. I have always trusted in the promises of His Word.

What have I to dread, what have I to fear,
Leaning on the everlasting arms?
I have blessed peace with my Lord so near,
Leaning on the everlasting arms.

I rejoice in the fact that God loved me enough to want me to freely love Him and stay loyal to Him, as coerced loyalty is no true loyalty at all.

God has never coerced me to love him at all. Whatever would give you that impression?
I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
He keeps my salvation; not I.
The love of Christ constrains me to serve him.

Along with the Bible and the church for 1500 years, this is also how I know without a doubt that OSAS is false doctrine: it is contrary to God's nature.

I found it in the Bible never hearing about any of the Reformers or Calvin.
God wants us to be assured of his promises. He does not want us to live in fear which is basically what those who don't believe in eternally security must do.

It goes right along with the legalistic, deterministic fatalism that is Calvinism which is diametrically opposed to the truth of God's nature and thus the nature of all humans and angels.

This is false. I am not a Calvinist; not legalistic; not deterministic; not fatalistic, etc. You are confused and absolutely wrong in your allegation. To believe in the promises of God, that he will keep you as His sheep--never to perish, to have the gift of eternal life (which can never be temporary), is simply not to call Christ a liar.

God has always given everyone the freedom to choose whether to accept Him, love Him, and be loyal to Him, and He does not take away that freedom and ability to choose after conversion.

He gives us the Holy Spirit at the time of salvation. If a person denies Christ once he has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit then was he saved in the first place? Salvation requires change in a person. It requires sanctification. It is progressive not regressive.

He cannot do that because He cannot do anything contrary to Who He is.

Going against God's nature is to change a sheep into a goat. That God would never do.

Those who hold to OSAS are afraid of the freedom that God gives them.

A Christian does not live in fear. Perfect love casts out fear. If he lives in fear perhaps he isn't saved. Those who hold to eternal life have no fear of losing their salvation. Those who don't believe in eternal security should examine their faith for the fear they have of losing it.

 

[The Biblicist]

If what the opponents of OSAS say is correct, then there should never be any promise in present tense of "ETERNAL" life but only "SPIRITUAL" life. John 3:16; 5:24 should read "spiritual" not "eternal" and John 10:28-29 and John 11:27 should not use the word "never" but "may". Here is how the scriptures should read if the opponents of OSAS were correct:

Jn. 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him MAY not perish, but have SPIRITUAL life.


Jn. 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath SPIRITUAL life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Jn. 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath SPIRITUAL life, and MAY not come into condemnation; but MAY pass from death unto life.

Jn. 10:28 And I give unto them SPIRITUAL life; and they MAY not perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Jn. 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me MAY never die. Believest thou this?

1 Jn. 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have SPIRITUAL life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
The problem with Calvinism is to the degree that it tries to "be god". Calvinism wonders how it is that God can possibly know the future - and then gives a human down-sized answer that God must be the great puppet master and causes all to obey or to rebel so that he can know the future with absolute certainty - using the tactics a lowly human would have to resort to so that a mere many also would be able to know the future - i.e. making himself the great puppet master.

But God does not stoop to puppet-master tactics so He "can" know the future. And this is the confusing part to the Calvinist.

Rather in Rom 2:11 "God is NOT partial" arbitrarily selecting some for eternal life and others for hell - just when Calvinism wants to have it otherwise.

But the truth is that 1,3 and 5 point Calvinism is the worst news possible for assurance of salvation - because "The Arminian can KNOW for certainty that he/she is saved today - but cannot know that 10 years from today he/she will choose to Persevere -- by contrast the Calvinist cannot even know that" because the Calvinist (1,3,5 pointers) will "retro-delete" today assurance when they discover that 10 years from today they "failed to persevere".

Calvinism and OSAS are two different things. Calvinism - perseverance of the saints. OSAS - preservation of the saints.

Calvinism provides the only logical construct for OSAS (as Calvinists love to point out) for it does not allow free will the option to change your mind once you are saved.

Thus the same puppet-master principle that brings you into salvation - also stops you from choosing any other path once born again.

And because the FEW are saved (Matt 7) and because there is no difference at all between the saved and lost when they are both lost - nothing in the person determines the selection according to Calvinism - it is the defining example of 'arbitrary' selection.

in Christ,

Bob