Your Confession of Faith...Let's see it!

[preacher4truth]

I limited my part in this discussion, because as you know I don't put much stock in confessions of faith. Most of them are out-dated, and we have much better resources available to us today. I have already expressed that to you.

My "confession of faith," was in my ordination paper.
Our church's "confession of faith" is in its statement of faith.

I don't feel the need to take part in rewriting what I have already done, and sometimes many times over.

Since you've done so 'many times over' give an example here. It's interesting that to do so now is such a dreadful task.

 

[Iconoclast]

Winman

I have been showing scripture to support my views since I came to BB.

yes but that was not what the op was about.

I don't copy creeds like you do, I don't let others find scripture for me like you do.

perhaps you should try it,then you will not post as many errors

You are the one who should show how Jesus fulfills the office of a priest without relying on someone else,

the thing is I asked aLL of you scripture only guys to show what you have got on it.

you can't do it,

I can offer some verses on it.

you simply parrot what others say.

You and all the otherr scripture only guys cannot do much with it so you make excuses

Show me Iconoclast where the Bible says God cursed man so that he is unable to believe the gospel.

ok.....
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

You claim this is the truth, and so does Yeshua1, but neither of you has EVER shown one verse of scripture to support it.

5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Jeremiah 10:23
O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

Show one verse of scripture that says a person must be regenerated to have the ability to believe. Just one.

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.



:wavey:

 

[Winman]

Winman

yes but that was not what the op was about.


perhaps you should try it,then you will not post as many errors

the thing is I asked aLL of you scripture only guys to show what you have got on it.

I love the way you call us "scripture only guys". I take that as a great compliment.

I can offer some verses on it.

You can barely type.

You and all the otherr scripture only guys cannot do much with it so you make excuses

I could write out a very detailed creed, but I am not going to do so. I have been showing what I believe in my own words showing scripture since I came to BB. And you KNOW that to be a fact.

ok.....
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Jeremiah 10:23
O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.


5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.



:wavey:

Not a single one of those many verses says man is unable to believe.

If man were unable to believe, then Jesus would not have needed to warn his disciples not to believe false doctrine.

Mar 13:21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:

Don't you think it would be a little silly and unnecessary for Jesus to warn the disciples not to do something they were unable to do? :laugh:

 

[preacher4truth]

winman says

Show me Iconoclast where the Bible says God cursed man so that he is unable to believe the gospel.

And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 2 Corinthians 4:3-4

Maybe right there perhaps?

I wonder who allowed this to happen?

No person on the face of the earth can believe the Gospel outside the power of God, for it is by His power we believe Eph. 1:19, and, faith comes from His Word, Romans 10:17. I was surprised yesterday to even hear Adrian Rogers state this and preach this.

All you've done winman since day one and in this thread is show your misunderstandings of Scripture on a consistent basis. You're like a concordance, you know where the verses are but we all know a concordance can't interpret them.

 

[Iconoclast]

winman says



And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 2 Corinthians 4:3-4

Maybe right there perhaps?

I wonder who allowed this to happen?

No person on the face of the earth can believe the Gospel outside the power of God, for it is by His power we believe Eph. 1:19, and, faith comes from His Word, Romans 10:17. I was surprised yesterday to even hear Adrian Rogers state this and preach this.

All you've done winman since day one and in this thread is show your misunderstandings of Scripture on a consistent basis. You're like a concordance, you know where the verses are but we all know a concordance can't interpret them.

Thank you for this helpful post.The image of the concordance gets right to it:thumbs: He thinks because he mentions a verse that it is helpful even when the verse has no real application to the topic.

2 cor 4 is a massive section of scripture and demonstrates the utter inability of the natural man to see biblical truth,apart from God regenerating him.

 

[Iconoclast]

Winman

I love the way you call us "scripture only guys". I take that as a great compliment.

Before you pat yourself on the back understand that I am only using that term to identify those here on BB who pride themselves wrongly with a term they think covers up there actions and makes them feel superior.
The reality is...you are not scripture only, but you are Winman only, or Dhk, only,

You can barely type.

Correct...that is all the more reason for me to cut and paste:thumbs: My lack of typing ability does not make me a bad person does it?

I could write out a very detailed creed,

Please do not....I was just looking for a sample.

but I am not going to do so.

Thankfully:wavey:

I have been showing what I believe in my own words showing scripture since I came to BB. And you KNOW that to be a fact.

Oh yes...I do....:BangHead:

Not a single one of those many verses says man is unable to believe.

The verses offered need to be understood for you to see it...in other words,,when Jesus says you must, or you cannot, that is what he meant.

If man were unable to believe, then Jesus would not have needed to warn his disciples not to believe false doctrine.

Men are responsible...

Mar 13:21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:

Don't you think it would be a little silly and unnecessary for Jesus to warn the disciples not to do something they were unable to do? :laugh:

[/QUOTE]

His warning was instructive

 

[Winman]

Winman

Before you pat yourself on the back understand that I am only using that term to identify those here on BB who pride themselves wrongly with a term they think covers up there actions and makes them feel superior.
The reality is...you are not scripture only, but you are Winman only, or Dhk, only,

Wow, I bet I won't be able to sleep tonight worried about what you think of me. :laugh:

I don't feel superior because I believe the scriptures, I just believe the scriptures are all we need to be mature believers.

2 Tim 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Paul said that from a child Timothy had known the holy scriptures which are ABLE to make a person wise unto salvation. Paul said that the scriptures provide everything we need that the man of God might be perfect.

You believe like the Catholics that a person cannot understand the scriptures, but must be taught by the clergy.

Correct...that is all the more reason for me to cut and paste:thumbs: My lack of typing ability does not make me a bad person does it?

Your lack of skill does not make you bad, but you probably shouldn't lecture others who have far more skill in the scriptures than you do (which is almost everybody here at BB).

You copy and paste because you do not know the scriptures yourself. If you did, you would not be a Calvinist.

Please do not....I was just looking for a sample.

Oh, don't worry, I am not going to write out a creed on principle. I have been expressing my own beliefs in my own words here for over four years, always supported by scripture. You are the one who copies and pastes what others have written for you. And as you only listen to Reformed teachers, you cannot see any other view.

Thankfully:wavey:

Oh yes...I do....:BangHead:

Be careful, you might break that brick wall with your hard head.

The verses offered need to be understood for you to see it...in other words,,when Jesus says you must, or you cannot, that is what he meant.

Jesus did not say one word about man being unable to believe. You are inserting your presupposition into scripture. He said unless a person is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. But if you read a few verses further Jesus explains that a person must believe to be born again. You teach the very opposite, you teach that a person must be born again to believe.

Jhn 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jesus compared the new birth to when the children of Israel were bitten by fiery serpents in the wilderness. All they had to do was look or trust on the brass serpent that Moses sat on a pole. And twice Jesus said you have to believe to be born again or have life.

Num 21:8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

Faith is always based on a promise of God. God told Moses to set a brass serpent on a pole. "Every one" and "any man" who looked upon this brass serpent would be healed of the fatal bite. "Every one" and "any man" could easily look and be saved. Likewise, "every one" and "any man" can trust Jesus Christ and be saved from their sins.

I bet none of your Reformed teachers you depend on have ever taught you this, and so you are ignorant that "every one" and "any man" can believe.

That is the price for letting other people think for you. Of course, I understand your natural limitations.

Men are responsible...

Yes, and the word "responsible" literally means "able to respond". Your ignorance would be laughable if it were not so tragic.

His warning was instructive

His warning showed that man can believe. Of course, you will make the ridiculous argument that men can only believe error.

The scripture shown by P4T does not prove inability, it actually refutes it. If men were unable to believe the word of God, then there would be no need for Satan to blind them.

If men were unable to understand and believe, Jesus said they would not be guilty of sin.

Jhn 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

If Total Inability were true (it is not) then men would have no sin. God does not hold someone unable to understand his word responsible. This is why a little baby, or a mentally retarded person is not guilty of sin. It is because men can know of God and understand that they are without excuse.

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

God said that what may be known of God is manifest in all men, because God has "shewed" it to them. God said these invisible things are "clearly seen" and "being understood" so that men are "without excuse".

Total Inability is pure error.

 

[DHK]

Since you've done so 'many times over' give an example here. It's interesting that to do so now is such a dreadful task.

Do a search. I have posted over 30,000 times across a span of 13 years while on this board on virtually ever topic. I am sure you can find what you are looking for if you try hard enough.
If I am to be refuted by some Confession of Faith I want no part or parcel in this game.

I consider those who continuously quote from Confessions et. al., on their way to denying the authority of Scripture (sola scriptura), if they haven't done it already. As a Catholic I believed in the inspiration of the Bible. It was held in high esteem. But to quote doctrine it was the Catechism that was always referred to. I don't see any difference here. What we have is "Catholicized Baptists."
I want no part of it!

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

Do a search. I have posted over 30,000 times across a span of 13 years while on this board on virtually ever topic. I am sure you can find what you are looking for if you try hard enough.
If I am to be refuted by some Confession of Faith I want no part or parcel in this game.

Most Christians would welcome anything that offered correction to a teaching they held in error. The goal is to be faithful to Scripture.Not worry about "being refuted".

I consider those who continuously quote from Confessions et. al., on their way to denying the authority of Scripture (sola scriptura), if they haven't done it already.

This is an irrational fear.The quotes and links offer more scripture than you can handle.

As a Catholic I believed in the inspiration of the Bible. It was held in high esteem. But to quote doctrine it was the Catechism that was always referred to. I don't see any difference here. What we have is "Catholicized Baptists."
I want no part of it!

Because mormons and jws use bibles does that mean we should not?

 

[DHK]

Because mormons and jws use bibles does that mean we should not?

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
--Paul commended the Bereans--but not because they searched their confessions.

 

[Iconoclast]

Winman

You believe like the Catholics that a person cannot understand the scriptures, but must be taught by the clergy.

While we can and do learn,teachers are given for a purpose.One purpose is to protect from the error of self styled teachers like you who invent new and false ideas.
In all the posts you have offered I have not seen one that I would "cut and paste":laugh:...no...not one instead of those I do post.

Your lack of skill does not make you bad,

I lack typing skills.

but you probably shouldn't lecture others who have far more skill in the scriptures than you do (which is almost everybody here at BB).

I am not lecturing anyone...you are welcome to your opinion:wavey:

You copy and paste because you do not know the scriptures yourself.

:laugh:

If you did, you would not be a Calvinist.

Actually...having been effectually drawn to truth there is no option but to believe it and act upon it.






T

 

[Yeshua1]

I limited my part in this discussion, because as you know I don't put much stock in confessions of faith. Most of them are out-dated, and we have much better resources available to us today. I have already expressed that to you.

My "confession of faith," was in my ordination paper.
Our church's "confession of faith" is in its statement of faith.

I don't feel the need to take part in rewriting what I have already done, and sometimes many times over.

I agree with you her on the Bible ALONE is to be our ONLY guide to all doctrines/practices, and our statement of faith is in a book wriiten by senior pastor almost 250 pages thick!

Still see no problem with out Reform bethren having their creeds/confessions, bit would think they should not be desiring to put tht on all of us baptists!

 

[DHK]

I agree with you her on the Bible ALONE is to be our ONLY guide to all doctrines/practices, and our statement of faith is in a book wriiten by senior pastor almost 250 pages thick!

Still see no problem with out Reform bethren having their creeds/confessions, bit would think they should not be desiring to put tht on all of us baptists!

I don't have anything against them using a Confession for their own reference. But don't impose it on me. This is a debate forum. Discuss your own ideas.

 

[Yeshua1]

I don't have anything against them using a Confession for their own reference. But don't impose it on me. This is a debate forum. Discuss your own ideas.

I also share that feeling, that sometimes our reformed bethren want to have us respond to their use and quotes of the Confesions, not the Bible!

Do think we both would agree that its OK to use them in church and private studies to assist one to form theology, but not to "overuse' them!

 

[Iconoclast]

I also share that feeling, that sometimes our reformed bethren want to have us respond to their use and quotes of the Confesions, not the Bible!

Perhaps you have not noticed.....I asked for anyone here to post their version of a confession of faith,
Only you and Van made a reasonable attempt to do so....Your post here indicates that you and DHK..."feel" that confessional christians are more interested in the confession instead of the scripture.

If that was the case then we would have expected You, or DHK, or anyone else to lead the way with many scriptures so that we could use your post as an example....
so lets see who uses more verses,,,,you ...or those who wrote the confession????

Here was your "confession" on two topics-


Of the Perseverance of the Saints
[ALL those saved by grace of god are kept by God, will endure to the End by being dound still walking and evidencing a change dlife]

Of the Assurance of Grace and Salvation
[Thw work of God, fully persuaded that God will finish/complete that work in us saved]

2 sentences...no scripture...
here is the 1689 on the same 2 questions-

Chapter 17: Of The Perseverance of the Saints
1._____ Those whom God hath accepted in the beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, and given the precious faith of his elect unto, can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved, seeing the gifts and callings of God are without repentance, whence he still begets and nourisheth in them faith, repentance, love, joy, hope, and all the graces of the Spirit unto immortality; and though many storms and floods arise and beat against them, yet they shall never be able to take them off that foundation and rock which by faith they are fastened upon; notwithstanding, through unbelief and the temptations of Satan, the sensible sight of the light and love of God may for a time be clouded and obscured from them, yet he is still the same, and they shall be sure to be kept by the power of God unto salvation, where they shall enjoy their purchased possession, they being engraven upon the palm of his hands, and their names having been written in the book of life from all eternity.
( John 10:28, 29; Philippians 1:6; 2 Timothy 2:19; 1 John 2:19; Psalms 89:31, 32; 1 Corinthians 11:32; Malachi 3:6 )

2._____ This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father, upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ and union with him, the oath of God, the abiding of his Spirit, and the seed of God within them, and the nature of the covenant of grace; from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.
( Romans 8:30 Romans 9:11, 16; Romans 5:9, 10; John 14:19; Hebrews 6:17, 18; 1 John 3:9; Jeremiah 32:40 )

3._____ And though they may, through the temptation of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins, and for a time continue therein, whereby they incur God's displeasure and grieve his Holy Spirit, come to have their graces and comforts impaired, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded, hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves, yet shall they renew their repentance and be preserved through faith in Christ Jesus to the end.
( Matthew 26:70, 72, 74; Isaiah 64:5, 9; Ephesians 4:30; Psalms 51:10, 12; Psalms 32:3, 4; 2 Samuel 12:14; Luke 22:32, 61, 62 )

3 paragraphs 32 scriptures on the first one.

Chapter 18: Of the Assurance of Grace and Salvation
1._____ Although temporary believers, and other unregenerate men, may vainly deceive themselves with false hopes and carnal presumptions of being in the favour of God and state of salvation, which hope of theirs shall perish; yet such as truly believe in the Lord Jesus, and love him in sincerity, endeavouring to walk in all good conscience before him, may in this life be certainly assured that they are in the state of grace, and may rejoice in the hope of the glory of God, which hope shall never make them ashamed.
( Job 8:13, 14; Matthew 7:22, 23; 1 John 2:3; 1 John 3:14, 18, 19, 21, 24; 1 John 5:13; Romans 5:2, 5 )

2._____ This certainty is not a bare conjectural and probable persuasion grounded upon a fallible hope, but an infallible assurance of faith founded on the blood and righteousness of Christ revealed in the Gospel; and also upon the inward evidence of those graces of the Spirit unto which promises are made, and on the testimony of the Spirit of adoption, witnessing with our spirits that we are the children of God; and, as a fruit thereof, keeping the heart both humble and holy.
( Hebrews 6:11, 19; Hebrews 6:17, 18; 2 Peter 1:4, 5, 10, 11; Romans 8:15, 16; 1 John 3:1-3 )

3._____ This infallible assurance doth not so belong to the essence of faith, but that a true believer may wait long, and conflict with many difficulties before he be partaker of it; yet being enabled by the Spirit to know the things which are freely given him of God, he may, without extraordinary revelation, in the right use of means, attain thereunto: and therefore it is the duty of every one to give all diligence to make his calling and election sure, that thereby his heart may be enlarged in peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, in love and thankfulness to God, and in strength and cheerfulness in the duties of obedience, the proper fruits of this assurance; -so far is it from inclining men to looseness.
( Isaiah 50:10; Psalms 88; Psalms 77:1-12; 1 John 4:13; Hebrews 6:11, 12; Romans 5:1, 2, 5; Romans 14:17; Psalms 119:32; Romans 6:1,2; Titus 2:11, 12, 14 )

4._____ True believers may have the assurance of their salvation divers ways shaken, diminished, and intermitted; as by negligence in preserving of it, by falling into some special sin which woundeth the conscience and grieveth the Spirit; by some sudden or vehement temptation, by God's withdrawing the light of his countenance, and suffering even such as fear him to walk in darkness and to have no light, yet are they never destitute of the seed of God and life of faith, that love of Christ and the brethren, that sincerity of heart and conscience of duty out of which, by the operation of the Spirit, this assurance may in due time be revived, and by the which, in the meantime, they are preserved from utter despair.
( Canticles 5:2, 3, 6; Psalms 51:8, 12, 14; Psalms 116:11; Psalms 77:7, 8; Psalms 31:22; Psalms 30:7; 1 John 3:9; Luke 22:32; Psalms 42:5, 11; Lamentations 3:26-31 )



At least 80 plus verses here.Which Confession would you recommend?

Do think we both would agree that its OK to use them in church and private studies to assist one to form theology, but not to "overuse' them!

No one is in danger of "over using " them....There is little evidence many use them at all. No one who is critical of the use of these tools could put together as solid a teaching in as few words, with more accurate verses than is put here....that is why only a few even tried...they know what the answer is.

if you think this is unfair....go back to the original post and re-test yourself without cheating add to your confession as many verses as you can and see if the 1689 does not hold up very well scripturally.

To put the confession against scripture is foolish.DHK earlier said the Bereans searched the scriptures daily, not the confessions.If they had the confessions of faith they could have studied much more of the scripture as the confessions, and catechisms are loaded with the scriptures:thumbs::thumbs:

 

[DHK]

To put the confession against scripture is foolish.DHK earlier said the Bereans searched the scriptures daily, not the confessions.If they had the confessions of faith they could have studied much more of the scripture as the confessions, and catechisms are loaded with the scriptures:thumbs::thumbs:

I balk at such an answer as this. It makes me shudder.
If goes against all that is written in the Word of God.
Every verse in Psalm 119, 176 verses speak of the Word of God, not confessions.
Jesus urged us to search the Scriptures, not confessions.
Paul commanded us to "Study to show ourselves approved unto God..." not to study confessions.
The Psalmist says in Psalm one that the man is blessed who meditates on the Word, not confessions.
The Lord told Joshua, "The book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth but thou shalt meditate on it day and night..."
It was about the Word not confessions.
Jesus said: Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word of God (not confessions).
The Psalmist said "Thy word is a lamp unto my feet; a light unto my paths."
He said that about the Word, not the confessions.

Your answer is ludicrous in the light of God's Word.

 

[Rippon]

Make a good confession.

 

[DHK]

Make a good confession.

Don't need one.
Did the Apostle Paul carry a confession around in his hip pocket on his three missionary journeys. Confessions are needless replacements for the Word of God.

 

[Rippon]

Don't need one.

Jesus made one. :

"...Christ Jesus,who while testifying before Pontius Pilate made the good confession...(NIV2011)

 

[Robert Snow]

Jesus made one. :

"...Christ Jesus,who while testifying before Pontius Pilate made the good confession...(NIV2011)

Do you think Jesus Christ quoted a Creed to Pilate?