No pastors in the Bible

[alvin]

How is it you think Timothy was a pastor? Remember, that word is not in the Bible. Also, look it up....everywhere the word Elder is it is in the plural. Peter is an Elder...not a pastor...but an Elder.

I Peter 5:1-5 Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed, shepherd (ποιμάνατε) the flock of God among you, exercising oversight (ἐπισκοποῦντες) not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God; and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness; nor yet as lording it over those allotted to your charge, but proving to be examples to the flock. And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory. You younger men, likewise, be subject to your elders; and all of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, for God is opposed to the proud, but gives grace to the humble.

 

[alvin]

Sorry again, last post was meant for Revmitchell

 

[alvin]

Okay, so you will have a board of Elders - How many will there there be? will one be the senior elder? Will decisions be made by majority vote of the Elders, Will only one do most of the preaching, how long will an Elder serve, Will the Music minister be on equal footing with other Elders? too many questions......

Salty. You are right, a lot of questions. These questions should have been ask a long time ago. How many Elders, how long do they serve, what type of authority will they have, how to censure a Elder, should you censure an elder. However, we begin with what is right no matter how difficult the task that follows. We are having a series of open meetings every other Wends to answer these questions.

 

[Revmitchell]

How is it you think Timothy was a pastor? Remember, that word is not in the Bible. Also, look it up....everywhere the word Elder is it is in the plural. Peter is an Elder...not a pastor...but an Elder.

I Peter 5:1-5 Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed, shepherd (ποιμάνατε) the flock of God among you, exercising oversight (ἐπισκοποῦντες) not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God; and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness; nor yet as lording it over those allotted to your charge, but proving to be examples to the flock. And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory. You younger men, likewise, be subject to your elders; and all of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, for God is opposed to the proud, but gives grace to the humble.

You are playing semantics with words. Pastor or Elder is the same thing. By te way Trinity is not in scripture neither. Not sure how you refer to a triune God but the rest of us use words like pastor and Trinity. There is no problem theologically in doing so. Unless you have an agenda.

 

[alvin]

Salty. You are right, a lot of questions. These questions should have been ask a long time ago. How many Elders, how long do they serve, what type of authority will they have, how to censure a Elder, should you censure an elder. However, we begin with what is right no matter how difficult the task that follows. We are having a series of open meetings every other Wends to answer these questions.

As it stands right now the church has lapsed into the hands of a professional body of preacher/administrators. Every research I have seen on this matter indicates these pastors are a very unhealthy group of people: high incidences of alcoholism, divorce, depression, and suicide. Close to 3,000 pastors leave their church every month. All this is online if you are interested. The college of Elders would prevent this misery for the Church. When a pastor leave the Church the church falls into disarray. If they have Elders and an Elder leaves, it is business as usual.

 

[Revmitchell]

As it stands right now the church has lapsed into the hands of a professional body of preacher/administrators. Every research I have seen on this matter indicates these pastors are a very unhealthy group of people: high incidences of alcoholism, divorce, depression, and suicide. Close to 3,000 pastors leave their church every month. All this is online if you are interested. The college of Elders would prevent this misery for the Church. When a pastor leave the Church the church falls into disarray. If they have Elders and an Elder leaves, it is business as usual.

This is just bunk. There are plenty of churches that are healthy with single pastors and when the pastor leaves they carry on just fine. The issue is not single pastors. The issue is a spiritual problem. Trying to tie church failings on one single issue is pure bunk.

 

[alvin]

You are playing semantics with words. Pastor or Elder is the same thing. By te way Trinity is not in scripture neither. Not sure how you refer to a triune God but the rest of us use words like pastor and Trinity. There is no problem theologically in doing so. Unless you have an agenda.

Think clearly on this, I Peter 5:1-5 it is the Elders (plural) and Peter counts himself as an Elder, who are to shepherd and oversee the church. No one else. In Acts 20 it says these Elders are chosen by the Holy Spirit. In Acts 20:28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.

It is the Holy Spirt that put the Elders in their place of overseeing. Are you a pastor? If so, lead your church to restoring the Elders. Become a biblical Church.

 

[alvin]

This is just bunk. There are plenty of churches that are healthy with single pastors and when the pastor leaves they carry on just fine. The issue is not single pastors. The issue is a spiritual problem. Trying to tie church failings on one single issue is pure bunk.

Do you understand that you are making a case against the teaching of the Bible? There is no healthy Church that is built upon anything less that the clear teaching of the Bible given under the inspiration of God. Y

 

[Revmitchell]

Think clearly on this, I Peter 5:1-5 it is the Elders (plural) and Peter counts himself as an Elder, who are to shepherd and oversee the church. No one else. In Acts 20 it says these Elders are chosen by the Holy Spirit. In Acts 20:28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.

It is the Holy Spirt that put the Elders in their place of overseeing. Are you a pastor? If so, lead your church to restoring the Elders. Become a biblical Church.

You have not established that that terminology makes the difference. By the way if by your standard 1st century practice means that is the only "biblical" way to do it then I have to ask, has everyone in your church sold all that you have and hold all things in common?

 

[alvin]

You have not established that that terminology makes the difference. By the way if by your standard 1st century practice means that is the only "biblical" way to do it then I have to ask, has everyone in your church sold all that you have and hold all things in common?

In the first place this has nothing to do with Elders. Secondly, doctrinal questions is exactly what Elders determine. They "protect" the flock, they are shepherds. I take it you are a pastor who is fighting to protect his career. Elders do not consider the church a "career" they are not paid and they serve faithfully expecting nothing in return. Elders are in the workplace and the Church does not have to pay their salaries, retirement, health care, rent, auto, convention expenses and all the rest.

 

[Revmitchell]

In the first place this has nothing to do with Elders. Secondly, doctrinal questions is exactly what Elders determine. They "protect" the flock, they are shepherds. I take it you are a pastor who is fighting to protect his career. Elders do not consider the church a "career" they are not paid and they serve faithfully expecting nothing in return. Elders are in the workplace and the Church does not have to pay their salaries, retirement, health care, rent, auto, convention expenses and all the rest.

Let me guess you are part of the house church movement.

 

[Revmitchell]

See folks this is the problem with this type of mentality. They cannot be consistent. If you are going to hold that what was practiced in the 1st century sets up presidence for the only way to do things then you need to be consistent straight across the board.

Of course folks like this are not willing to sell all that they have and hold all things common, since that is something they practiced in the 1st century church. They cherry pick what they want to hold to and ignore the rest of 1st century practices.

 

[Revmitchell]

1 Timothy 5:18


17Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially they who labor in the word and doctrine. 18For the scripture said, You shall not muzzle the ox that treads out the corn. And, The laborer is worthy of his reward.

 

[alvin]

Let me guess you are part of the house church movement.

No, I am a pastor of a Southern Baptist Church. In fact, I have pastored churches for the last 40 years. I count myself fortunate to have come to these conclusions and help the church before it was too late. It was just general Bible teaching that I began to realize my terrible error. It is very simple to see this in the Bible and it is a universal that pastors are very unhealthy people. I look forward, along with our church, the restoration of the Elders. It is not a convoluted or complicated argument,it is simple and undeniable. I believe in judgement, and if my church chooses me as an Elder I will stand in judgement as an Elder. Would not want to stand in judgement as one who replaced the Elders in favor of something else.

 

[Salty]

...I have pastored churches for the last 40 years. ...I look forward, along with our church, the restoration of the Elders. ....

I would assume you are at lest in your late 60's- not to say you cant minster into your 70's and 80's, but it looks like your time of ministry is coming to an end.

Also have a couple of more questions:
1) did the church vote to go to a plurality of elders?
2) what was the % of vote for and against
3) those who voted against - did they leave the church - or....
4) to Follow up on Revmitchells question - do you preach on the unbiblical term of the Trinity?

 

[alvin]

I would assume you are at lest in your late 60's- not to say you cant minster into your 70's and 80's, but it looks like your time of ministry is coming to an end.

Also have a couple of more questions:
1) did the church vote to go to a plurality of elders?
2) what was the % of vote for and against
3) those who voted against - did they leave the church - or....
4) to Follow up on Revmitchells question - do you preach on the unbiblical term of the Trinity?

I am in my 60's and I have always thought ministry is the highest form of theChristian experience and have thus separated it from the concept of the pastor. Yes, I put it to a vote but first laid out my case such as I have done in this forum. It was 100% affirmative vote. It rings true in the hearts of the people because it is easy to show Biblical support and it just makes sense. I am a trinitarian believer. In fact if one was to look for heresy it would not be the churches that have Elders, it would be those who have had their Elders disbanded in favor of something else.

 

[preacher4truth]

They cherry pick what they want to hold to and ignore the rest of 1st century practices.

'They' cherry pick? How about you? Do you do the same, or are you arbitrarily placing judgment on everyone else and condemning 'them', or are you in practice of '1st century' Christianity to 'their' demise?

That said, I've seen little to nothing from you to date as far as Scriptural citations and exegetical insight, which falls well short of the 'Bereans' of the '1st century. One liners and curt quips aside, you've offered nothing to date that is substantial theologically.

 

[alvin]

1 Timothy 5:18


17Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially they who labor in the word and doctrine. 18For the scripture said, You shall not muzzle the ox that treads out the corn. And, The laborer is worthy of his reward.

Yes...the verse is talking about Elders. That is my point. Not pastors in the sense we have them today. You do realize there were no pastors in the church until the 16th Century. The early Church was led by Elders until it became corrupted by the establishment of priests and ruling bishops.

 

[preacher4truth]

To the OP.

There are pastors in the Bible. Multiplicity does not dismiss this office, nor does the fact of 'one' pastor (church size taken into consideration) negate the one holding this office as an unscriptural office due to being 'unilateral'.

Timothy would be a prime example of a pastor, who was the shepherd of his flock and one who was written to as being such over the flock granted to him by Christ as the overseer. These epistles did not address a multiplicity, but one. Notice also Titus.

The OP seemingly suggests that in latter years one seems to be regretful or remorseful of said position in the office of pastor.

 

[alvin]

To the OP.

There are pastors in the Bible. Multiplicity does not dismiss this office, nor does the fact of 'one' pastor (church size taken into consideration) negate the one holding this office as an unscriptural office due to being 'unilateral'.

Timothy would be a prime example of a pastor, who was the shepherd of his flock and one who was written to as being such over the flock granted to him by Christ as the overseer. These epistles did not address a multiplicity, but one. Notice also Titus.

The OP seemingly suggests that in latter years one seems to be regretful or remorseful of said position in the office of pastor.

How do you get the idea the Timothy was a pastor? Because it is called the pastoral epistles? that tile was assigned in the 18th century. Again, you seem to come with the idea of the pastor as an "office." Where is that in the NT? Elders and deacons...none other. Pastor came after the Reformation! NEver and office in the Bible, if so please show me where that it is.