No pastors in the Bible

[Havensdad]

BTW, not only does God GIVE Pastors for the Church, He even foretold of this aspect of the New Covenant!

Jer 3:15 And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.
Jer 3:16 And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more.


:tonofbricks:

 

[Thomas Helwys]

NT scholarship fully agrees with the position of Elders were the only overseers of the Church until the corruption of this office occurred in late second, early third century. This is why we have Bishops in the Roman Catholic Church. They use you exact same argument for their priests and bishops.

You are totally wrong about NT scholarship; you need to do some unbiased, objective study and research.

You are also totally wrong about the RCC; their justification for bishops is completely different from the position I am putting forth. They make a distinction between bishops and pastors when there is no such distinction in the NT. You can see their views on this forum.

If you are going to engage me in this area, you seriously need to do much more studying first. I am not saying that to disparage you, but it is clear that this is the case from what you post.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

This thread is a prime example of the saying, "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing."

 

[Revmitchell]

This thread is a prime example of the saying, "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing."

It is a prime example of the brainwashing of the housechurch movement

 

[Thomas Helwys]

It is a prime example of the brainwashing of the housechurch movement

Which has a "little knowledge."

I am not opposed to house churches per se, as the early churches were that, but I understand what you're talking about.

 

[Revmitchell]

Which has a "little knowledge."

I am not opposed to house churches per se, as the early churches were that, but I understand what you're talking about.

Well there is an actual organized movement that teaches against:

1. paid pastors
2. "pulpiteering" (preaching)
3. church buildings
4. defined leadership

etc. The organized movement is unorthodox and unbiblical

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Well there is an actual organized movement that teaches against:

1. paid pastors
2. "pulpiteering" (preaching)
3. church buildings
4. defined leadership

etc. The organized movement is unorthodox and unbiblical

I know, which is what I meant when I said I understand what you're talking about.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Well there is an actual organized movement that teaches against:

1. paid pastors
2. "pulpiteering" (preaching)
3. church buildings
4. defined leadership

etc. The organized movement is unorthodox and unbiblical

The 1st one kind of bothers you though doesn't it?

 

[Havensdad]

The 1st one kind of bothers you though doesn't it?

It should bother any real Christian...

1Co_9:14 In the same way, the Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel.

It shuts down huge amounts of ministry.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

It should bother any real Christian...

1Co_9:14 In the same way, the Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel.

It shuts down huge amounts of ministry.

I'm 56 years in this world & I have never seen one ministry worth a damn....except some that actually go out and press the flesh & feed people. Unfortunately they are mostly all Catholic or grass roots independent churches

 

[Havensdad]

I'm 56 years in this world & I have never seen one ministry worth a damn....except some that actually go out and press the flesh & feed people. Unfortunately they are mostly all Catholic or grass roots independent churches

That's sad. We do an enormous amount of ministry. Nevertheless, scripture is clear.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

That's sad. We do an enormous amount of ministry. Nevertheless, scripture is clear.

Not in New Jersey you dont:laugh: Paper Tiger.

 

[alvin]

Here it is and it was a whole lot easier than I thought it would be:

This is the first two lines of Georgics, Book III.

Here is the English translation: "I’ll sing of you, great Pales, also, and you Apollo, famed shepherd of Amphrysus, and of you, woods and rivers of Mount Lycaeus."

Note the English word "shepherd" that corresponds to the Latin word "pastor."

Very good. I appreciated your research and example. I will amend my statement by saying the word pastor was never used as a office in the Bible until after the 16th century. You have to admit that when Virgil uses this word he is not thinking of a pastoral "office." He is using the word like it was always was used, a herder of livestock.

 

[gb93433]

I'm 56 years in this world & I have never seen one ministry worth a damn....except some that actually go out and press the flesh & feed people. Unfortunately they are mostly all Catholic or grass roots independent churches

Compare your comments to the churches Paul started? Any of them still around? Ministry is done where you are among those you meet. I have been among the very rich and poor. The rich do not need food. Years ago I got to know a man who worked with divers. The first two weeks he complained to God about the lack of fellowship. The next time he was out there God worked in him and he started a Bible study among the men. All of those men on the rig came to Christ and he had all kinds of fellowship. It does not take a church or a recognized ministry to do that but rather knowing the God who is. Ministry is not about what we know so much as it is about whom we know.

 

[alvin]

BTW, please consider this statement, interested in your replies.
As it stands now anyone can go start a Church, call themselves the pastor of the Church and convince people they have been selected by the Holy Spirit, and have been given charge to oversee and shepherd their souls, they are worthy of double honor, should be supported by them, and are to be obeyed. They claim stewardship and guardianship of your souls on the grounds of the “feel” called. Does not anyone have a problem with this? Does this sound right? Elders sent from established Churches should start new Churches and begin to train up disciples of Jesus who in turn will become the Elders of that church. Does not sound much healthier and perhaps that is why God ordained such a program for the Church?

 

[Havensdad]

BTW, please consider this statement, interested in your replies.
As it stands now anyone can go start a Church, call themselves the pastor of the Church and convince people they have been selected by the Holy Spirit, and have been given charge to oversee and shepherd their souls, they are worthy of double honor, should be supported by them, and are to be obeyed. They claim stewardship and guardianship of your souls on the grounds of the “feel” called. Does not anyone have a problem with this? Does this sound right? Elders sent from established Churches should start new Churches and begin to train up disciples of Jesus who in turn will become the Elders of that church. Does not sound much healthier and perhaps that is why God ordained such a program for the Church?

What on earth? Not sure where you get your info. It is WRONG (at least in Baptist circles!)

This is how the process ACTUALLY works, oh uninformed one...

First, Pastors/Elders (same thing) are called from within a church. That person DOES have an "internal" call (a desire to teach, protect, and work for the Glory of Christ), but there is also a VISIBLE call, which is recognized and confirmed by the elders/pastors of a church. A person who is qualified for the position of pastor/elder, goes to the elders of a church or is approached by the elders/pastors of a church (either way is acceptable), and then the elders/pastors of that church decide if the person is qualified and gifted for that position (good character, able to teach, etc.).

Once it is determined, by the elders/pastors that the person is indeed qualified in terms of his God given spiritual gifts, then, the pastors/elders get together, bring in the candidate, and grill him, to make sure that he has a basic understanding of Christian beliefs, and that there is nothing that would disqualify him from the office.

At this point, he is either ordained (appointed as an elder) or licensed (basically an apprenticeship period, for those gifted, but not ready for the office). Some go to Seminary at this point, some are trained within the church by the pastors/elders, when possible.

Your straw-man is just silly. You might actually want to research something, before you talk about it. Is it good to bring up elders from within the church? Absolutely! Is it commanded in scripture? NO. Is it always possible? NO.

 

[Havensdad]

By the way, a felt call is CONFIRMED by the Bible, oh uninformed one...

1Ti_3:1 The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task.

ὀρέγομαι
oregomai
Thayer Definition:
1) to stretch one’s self out in order to touch or to grasp something, to reach after or desire something

 

[alvin]

What on earth? Not sure where you get your info. It is WRONG (at least in Baptist circles!)

This is how the process ACTUALLY works, oh uninformed one...

First, Pastors/Elders (same thing) are called from within a church. That person DOES have an "internal" call (a desire to teach, protect, and work for the Glory of Christ), but there is also a VISIBLE call, which is recognized and confirmed by the elders/pastors of a church. A person who is qualified for the position of pastor/elder, goes to the elders of a church or is approached by the elders/pastors of a church (either way is acceptable), and then the elders/pastors of that church decide if the person is qualified and gifted for that position (good character, able to teach, etc.).

Once it is determined, by the elders/pastors that the person is indeed qualified in terms of his God given spiritual gifts, then, the pastors/elders get together, bring in the candidate, and grill him, to make sure that he has a basic understanding of Christian beliefs, and that there is nothing that would disqualify him from the office.

At this point, he is either ordained (appointed as an elder) or licensed (basically an apprenticeship period, for those gifted, but not ready for the office). Some go to Seminary at this point, some are trained within the church by the pastors/elders, when possible.

Your straw-man is just silly. You might actually want to research something, before you talk about it. Is it good to bring up elders from within the church? Absolutely! Is it commanded in scripture? NO. Is it always possible? NO.

Actualy, I was hoping you would say that a pastor is the same thing as an Elder. First, where in the Bible do you find this. Second, if you are an Elder then why do you claim the title "pastor" and not Elder. Finanly, where are the rest of the Elders in your church? The point I make in this forum is that some who claim the title "pastor" has replaced the only Spirit ordained people in the Bible, Elders. I have heard so many pastors claimed to be "called." Do you undertand what they are saying when they say that? They are saying they are so special that God chose them out of all humanity to do something no can do but them...and we have to take their word for that. Ask 10 pastors what they mean when the say they were "called" and it is always a "feeling" they get. No voice from God, at least no voice anyone can hear but themselves. Fred Phelps says he is called. Makes the same claim other pastors make.

 

[alvin]

By the way, a felt call is CONFIRMED by the Bible, oh uninformed one...

1Ti_3:1 The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task.

ὀρέγομαι
oregomai
Thayer Definition:
1) to stretch one’s self out in order to touch or to grasp something, to reach after or desire something

Yes....and a overseer is who? Acts 20:28, I Peter 5....a overseer is an Elder.

 

[alvin]

Yes....and a overseer is who? Acts 20:28, I Peter 5....a overseer is an Elder.

I have noticed those involved in this discussion are very careful not to equate the pastor as an Elder. Other forums have done the same. The reason for this is it question why they, above all the other Elders receive a salary, why the pastor above all the other Elders is a "shepherd" why the pastor is a career and Elders are volunteers, and...many, many churches just do not have Elders because they have been supplanted.

So, shepherds are not an office...and pastors are not Elders if I understand these comments on this forum. Then...who are they and why do they prevent the only Holy Spirit appointed overseers of the Church from taking their proper place.