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Featured No pastors in the Bible

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by alvin, Jul 28, 2013.

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  1. alvin

    alvin New Member

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    Wonderful, let you and I debate. First, where in the Bible is there an "office" of a pastor? Can you show me anywhere in the Bible where the word ποιμένας is used for anything other than a herder of sheep (other than the Great Shepherd)? IF the Holy Spirit appointed Elders and gave them the work of shepherding and overseeing the Church then where are they today? Why have they been replaced with someone called a "pastor?" We will start with these questions. Thank you for offering a debate.
     
    #221 alvin, Jul 29, 2013
  2. alvin

    alvin New Member

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    See below, someone has accept my challenge to debate this issue.
     
    #222 alvin, Jul 29, 2013
  3. Mexdeaf

    Mexdeaf New Member

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    Welcome to the ignore list.
     
    #223 Mexdeaf, Jul 29, 2013
  4. alvin

    alvin New Member

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    The pastors calling

    Good point and I am in much agreement. The NT shows us that if anyone is "called" it is the Elders. Pastors always insist they are called to ministry yet 90% of them are out of the ministry 5 years after graduation from Seminary. Some calling. Also, they always talk of being "called" to such and such church and leave for another "calling" a year later. Sorry I missed your comment earlier.
     
    #224 alvin, Jul 29, 2013
  5. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    Well, the elders of the churches in Paul's time are dead today. Secondly, where did you get the idea that the Holy Spirit appointed elders of the local churches? Acts 14:23 states that Paul and Barnabas appointed elders.

    God has used one person throughout the Bible to lead his people such as Moses, David, Joshua, etc. When Paul writes Timothy, he writes to him alone, not to the collection of elders. That means Timothy was charged with leading the church.

    1 Timothy 5:17 and 1 Cor 9:6-14 talks about elders that were paid. One way or another, the New Testament contemplates some leaders who are set aside by the church to be paid to do the work of preaching and teaching.

    Finally, common sense dictates that if there is a group of elders or pastors, one will emerge as the leader. If you have ever been on jury duty, it becomes apparent who the leader is very quickly.

    The final point is, the way you have debated with others over such a minor issue proves nothing. The bottom line is, each local church decides for itself the form of government.
     
    #225 saturneptune, Jul 29, 2013
  6. alvin

    alvin New Member

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    You have said I am not interested in a serious debate. That all I have been interested in all day long and yet none has been forthcoming. I had hope you were the one. However, remember that you are taking up the challenge of debating that which God has clearly stated in Acts 20, and I Peter 5. So you might want to refresh on that materiel. Also, review the fact that Paul established Elders in all the churches, and Peter himself was an Elder...you have your work cut out and I, for one would not like to argue against the Bible itself.
     
    #226 alvin, Jul 29, 2013
  7. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Internet Trolls:

    Trolls are immune to criticism and logical arguments. True trolls cannot be reasoned with, regardless of how sound your logical argument is.
     
    #227 Revmitchell, Jul 29, 2013
  8. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    You are the one that said the Holy Spirit appointed the elders. You are also wondering where those elders are today. They are dead, just like we will be 2000 years from now. If you are serious about a debate, then refute my points.
     
    #228 saturneptune, Jul 29, 2013
  9. alvin

    alvin New Member

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    Just what points do you refer?
     
    #229 alvin, Jul 29, 2013
  10. alvin

    alvin New Member

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    I re read your post. Shepherding is not an office, it is a task. It is a task that has been assigned by the Holy Spirit to the Elders. See Acts 20, and I Peter 5. Do you see anywhere in the Bible where the task of shepherding and overseeing the church being assigned to anyone other the the Elders? Please reread these Bible passages and tell me if you can find the office of the pastor. Shepherding is a task not an office. IS that not reasonable?
     
    #230 alvin, Jul 29, 2013
  11. alvin

    alvin New Member

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    I understand the unwillingness to debate, I would not defend this obviously unbiblical position either, no matter how much I wished to be true.
     
    #231 alvin, Jul 29, 2013
  12. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    Who is the Preacher in Ecclesiastes? One thing, I notice you answer posts in a short period of time. Do not be surprised that there are periods of time between my posts. I do not spend lots of time here everyday.

    Back to the points, why did Paul write Timothy alone and not the collection of elders? Why does God use a single person time after time in the Bible to lead his people? Does it not seem reasonable that out of a plurality of elders, that a leader will emerge? Why does Paul distinguish between paid elders and non paid elders?
     
    #232 saturneptune, Jul 29, 2013
  13. alvin

    alvin New Member

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    Not sure what relevance the Ecclesiastes question. A preacher is someone telling another about God, Jesus. A preacher is not an Elder, although an Elder may preach. A preacher is certainly not an office.

    When Paul wrote Timothy he did not identify him as a pastor, that is for certain. When Paul wrote Titus he instructed him to appoint Elders in every town...not pastors. These are called the "Pastoral Epistles" for no other reason than is was so named by Paul Anton in 1726. Not in the Bible, added later. A dominate Elder rising from the college of Elders is likely to occur but when it does it does not become a office unto itself. He is still one among equals. Lastly, please clarify what you mean by paid Elders and non paid elders. I thank you for your very well thought out questions. They are good indeed and I think helpful for all who are following.
     
    #233 alvin, Jul 29, 2013
  14. alvin

    alvin New Member

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    BTW, after Paul told the Elders to shepherd and oversee the Church in Acts 20:28 he then tells them in verse 30 "Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them."

    Who do you think these people might be that will draw disciples after themselves? Why is he warning the Elders of this?
     
    #234 alvin, Jul 29, 2013
  15. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    It is probably best not to feed that thing.
     
    #235 Revmitchell, Jul 29, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 29, 2013
  16. alvin

    alvin New Member

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    Is this not a reasonable question? It is in the context of everything being discussed. It is within the pericope of Acts 20 and its context.
     
    #236 alvin, Jul 29, 2013
  17. Havensdad

    Havensdad New Member

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    Scripture CLEARLY refutes you. Why do you refuse to use the word "pastor" for Shepherd? The words are completely synonymous. A "pastor" is a shepherd, and a shepherd is a pastor. And scripture says you are WRONG.

    Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
    Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ
     
    #237 Havensdad, Jul 29, 2013
  18. Thomas Helwys

    Thomas Helwys New Member

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    And you will be lying through your teeth. Your position has absolutely no credibility. NT scholarship totally refutes your untenable position. You are advocating legalistic fanaticism.
     
    #238 Thomas Helwys, Jul 29, 2013
  19. Thomas Helwys

    Thomas Helwys New Member

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    I'd be willing to bet that there's no one on this forum more opposed to the clergy-laity division than I am, but that has nothing to do with the facts as I have presented them.
     
    #239 Thomas Helwys, Jul 29, 2013
  20. alvin

    alvin New Member

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    Look again, any Greek text, anywhere...the pastor is not there. Shepherding is a function, not an office and it is a function of Elders.
     
    #240 alvin, Jul 29, 2013
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