Wonderful, let you and I debate. First, where in the Bible is there an "office" of a pastor? Can you show me anywhere in the Bible where the word ποιμένας is used for anything other than a herder of sheep (other than the Great Shepherd)? IF the Holy Spirit appointed Elders and gave them the work of shepherding and overseeing the Church then where are they today? Why have they been replaced with someone called a "pastor?" We will start with these questions. Thank you for offering a debate.
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No pastors in the Bible
- Thread starter alvin
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See below, someone has accept my challenge to debate this issue.And you would be lying. That is a sin, you know.
The pastors calling
Good point and I am in much agreement. The NT shows us that if anyone is "called" it is the Elders. Pastors always insist they are called to ministry yet 90% of them are out of the ministry 5 years after graduation from Seminary. Some calling. Also, they always talk of being "called" to such and such church and leave for another "calling" a year later. Sorry I missed your comment earlier.
There are two words that are translated as "elder" presbuteros and episkopos. Episkopos is a later word in the time of the NT and presbuteros come out of Judaism.
I might also add where in scripture is a pastor "called"? If pastors are called then how is that any different than someone who works in a trade. In Judaism is was considered a part of worship for someone who was in a trade.
Good point and I am in much agreement. The NT shows us that if anyone is "called" it is the Elders. Pastors always insist they are called to ministry yet 90% of them are out of the ministry 5 years after graduation from Seminary. Some calling. Also, they always talk of being "called" to such and such church and leave for another "calling" a year later. Sorry I missed your comment earlier.
saturneptune
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Wonderful, let you and I debate. First, where in the Bible is there an "office" of a pastor? Can you show me anywhere in the Bible where the word ποιμένας is used for anything other than a herder of sheep (other than the Great Shepherd)? IF the Holy Spirit appointed Elders and gave them the work of shepherding and overseeing the Church then where are they today? Why have they been replaced with someone called a "pastor?" We will start with these questions. Thank you for offering a debate.
Well, the elders of the churches in Paul's time are dead today. Secondly, where did you get the idea that the Holy Spirit appointed elders of the local churches? Acts 14:23 states that Paul and Barnabas appointed elders.
God has used one person throughout the Bible to lead his people such as Moses, David, Joshua, etc. When Paul writes Timothy, he writes to him alone, not to the collection of elders. That means Timothy was charged with leading the church.
1 Timothy 5:17 and 1 Cor 9:6-14 talks about elders that were paid. One way or another, the New Testament contemplates some leaders who are set aside by the church to be paid to do the work of preaching and teaching.
Finally, common sense dictates that if there is a group of elders or pastors, one will emerge as the leader. If you have ever been on jury duty, it becomes apparent who the leader is very quickly.
The final point is, the way you have debated with others over such a minor issue proves nothing. The bottom line is, each local church decides for itself the form of government.
You have said I am not interested in a serious debate. That all I have been interested in all day long and yet none has been forthcoming. I had hope you were the one. However, remember that you are taking up the challenge of debating that which God has clearly stated in Acts 20, and I Peter 5. So you might want to refresh on that materiel. Also, review the fact that Paul established Elders in all the churches, and Peter himself was an Elder...you have your work cut out and I, for one would not like to argue against the Bible itself.You obviously do not have a clue. You have gotten many good answers to your objections. It is quite clear you are not interested in serious debate. If you want to get technical, the Lord Jesus Christ leads and heads each local church.
In turn, you cannot show one place in the Bible where it says elders, bishops, and pastors are not synonymous. You probably have not served in a denomination and church that has elder government and hierarchies. In the first place, the churches in the Pauline letters are local churches, so hierarchies are unbiblical. Secondly, elders are elected by the congregation, and are suppose to be elected on spiritual maturity. More often than not, it is based on social status. Elder government becomes elder worship.
The local autonomous is a Baptist distinctive. If that bothers you, join the RCC.
You have said I am not interested in a serious debate. That all I have been interested in all day long and yet none has been forthcoming.
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Trolls are immune to criticism and logical arguments. True trolls cannot be reasoned with, regardless of how sound your logical argument is.
saturneptune
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You are the one that said the Holy Spirit appointed the elders. You are also wondering where those elders are today. They are dead, just like we will be 2000 years from now. If you are serious about a debate, then refute my points.You have said I am not interested in a serious debate. That all I have been interested in all day long and yet none has been forthcoming. I had hope you were the one. However, remember that you are taking up the challenge of debating that which God has clearly stated in Acts 20, and I Peter 5. So you might want to refresh on that materiel. Also, review the fact that Paul established Elders in all the churches, and Peter himself was an Elder...you have your work cut out and I, for one would not like to argue against the Bible itself.
Just what points do you refer?You are the one that said the Holy Spirit appointed the elders. You are also wondering where those elders are today. They are dead, just like we will be 2000 years from now. If you are serious about a debate, then refute my points.
I re read your post. Shepherding is not an office, it is a task. It is a task that has been assigned by the Holy Spirit to the Elders. See Acts 20, and I Peter 5. Do you see anywhere in the Bible where the task of shepherding and overseeing the church being assigned to anyone other the the Elders? Please reread these Bible passages and tell me if you can find the office of the pastor. Shepherding is a task not an office. IS that not reasonable?Just what points do you refer?
saturneptune
New Member
I re read your post. Shepherding is not an office, it is a task. It is a task that has been assigned by the Holy Spirit to the Elders. See Acts 20, and I Peter 5. Do you see anywhere in the Bible where the task of shepherding and overseeing the church being assigned to anyone other the the Elders? Please reread these Bible passages and tell me if you can find the office of the pastor. Shepherding is a task not an office. IS that not reasonable?
Who is the Preacher in Ecclesiastes? One thing, I notice you answer posts in a short period of time. Do not be surprised that there are periods of time between my posts. I do not spend lots of time here everyday.
Back to the points, why did Paul write Timothy alone and not the collection of elders? Why does God use a single person time after time in the Bible to lead his people? Does it not seem reasonable that out of a plurality of elders, that a leader will emerge? Why does Paul distinguish between paid elders and non paid elders?
Who is the Preacher in Ecclesiastes? One thing, I notice you answer posts in a short period of time. Do not be surprised that there are periods of time between my posts. I do not spend lots of time here everyday.
Back to the points, why did Paul write Timothy alone and not the collection of elders? Why does God use a single person time after time in the Bible to lead his people? Does it not seem reasonable that out of a plurality of elders, that a leader will emerge? Why does Paul distinguish between paid elders and non paid elders?
Not sure what relevance the Ecclesiastes question. A preacher is someone telling another about God, Jesus. A preacher is not an Elder, although an Elder may preach. A preacher is certainly not an office.
When Paul wrote Timothy he did not identify him as a pastor, that is for certain. When Paul wrote Titus he instructed him to appoint Elders in every town...not pastors. These are called the "Pastoral Epistles" for no other reason than is was so named by Paul Anton in 1726. Not in the Bible, added later. A dominate Elder rising from the college of Elders is likely to occur but when it does it does not become a office unto itself. He is still one among equals. Lastly, please clarify what you mean by paid Elders and non paid elders. I thank you for your very well thought out questions. They are good indeed and I think helpful for all who are following.
BTW, after Paul told the Elders to shepherd and oversee the Church in Acts 20:28 he then tells them in verse 30 "Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them."
Who do you think these people might be that will draw disciples after themselves? Why is he warning the Elders of this?
Who do you think these people might be that will draw disciples after themselves? Why is he warning the Elders of this?
Who is the Preacher in Ecclesiastes? One thing, I notice you answer posts in a short period of time. Do not be surprised that there are periods of time between my posts. I do not spend lots of time here everyday.
Back to the points, why did Paul write Timothy alone and not the collection of elders? Why does God use a single person time after time in the Bible to lead his people? Does it not seem reasonable that out of a plurality of elders, that a leader will emerge? Why does Paul distinguish between paid elders and non paid elders?
It is probably best not to feed that thing.
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Is this not a reasonable question? It is in the context of everything being discussed. It is within the pericope of Acts 20 and its context.It is probably best not to fee that thing.
The word πρεσβύτερος means "Elder" and always has meant elder. The word ποιμένας means "shepherd" as in the shepherds in the field and has, never, never, been a religious office. Shepherding is a task....not an office. Never was and will never be no matter how hard you wish it to be.
Scripture CLEARLY refutes you. Why do you refuse to use the word "pastor" for Shepherd? The words are completely synonymous. A "pastor" is a shepherd, and a shepherd is a pastor. And scripture says you are WRONG.
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ
Thomas Helwys
New Member
This Wends. I will be reporting to our Church the best scholars on this forum, and others, could give a single defense for the office of pastor replacing the office of the Elders. Not a single person can show a single verse where pastor and Elders are synonymous. No one can show a single instance where the word pastor is found in a single Greek manuscript. And no one is willing to say the Elders are not Spirit appointed and charged with the task of shepherding and overseeing the Church. And pastors dare not call themselves Elders as they will have to abandon their role as a pastor and become and equal among other Elders.
And you will be lying through your teeth. Your position has absolutely no credibility. NT scholarship totally refutes your untenable position. You are advocating legalistic fanaticism.
Thomas Helwys
New Member
I'd be willing to bet that there's no one on this forum more opposed to the clergy-laity division than I am, but that has nothing to do with the facts as I have presented them.
Look again, any Greek text, anywhere...the pastor is not there. Shepherding is a function, not an office and it is a function of Elders.Scripture CLEARLY refutes you. Why do you refuse to use the word "pastor" for Shepherd? The words are completely synonymous. A "pastor" is a shepherd, and a shepherd is a pastor. And scripture says you are WRONG.
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ
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