No pastors in the Bible

[Logos1560]

I have noticed those involved in this discussion are very careful not to equate the pastor as an Elder.

That is an incorrect assertion. Several have noted that elders/bishops/pastors are three names for the same people.

It has been plainly noted that a pastor is an elder or overseer [bishop].

 

[Revmitchell]

I have noticed those involved in this discussion are very careful not to equate the pastor as an Elder.

Then you have not been actually reading the responses.

 

[Havensdad]

Actualy, I was hoping you would say that a pastor is the same thing as an Elder.

Do you have alzheimers? I have been saying this very same thing, and you have been arguing with me.

First, where in the Bible do you find this.

For the millionth time,

Eph_4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

It is also foretold of the New Covenant, in the book of Jeremiah...

Jer_3:15 And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.

Second, if you are an Elder then why do you claim the title "pastor" and not Elder.

I call myself "elder" all the time. Why wouldn't I call myself a pastor? The Bible calls us pastors, elders, and overseers. Why do you HATE a Biblical name for elder?

Finanly, where are the rest of the Elders in your church?

Nowhere in the Bible is multiple elder-ship commanded. One or more pastors/elders is biblically acceptable.

The point I make in this forum is that some who claim the title "pastor" has replaced the only Spirit ordained people in the Bible, Elders.

That is a stupid point, since it is unbiblical. Elders are not just called "elders." They are also called "pastors" and overseers. Its like you getting mad cause some people refer to the president as the "Chief Executive" or refer to a car as a "automobile." It is stupid, ridiculous, and a waste of time.

I have heard so many pastors claimed to be "called." Do you undertand what they are saying when they say that? They are saying they are so special that God chose them out of all humanity to do something no can do but them...and we have to take their word for that. Ask 10 pastors what they mean when the say they were "called" and it is always a "feeling" they get. No voice from God, at least no voice anyone can hear but themselves. Fred Phelps says he is called. Makes the same claim other pastors make.

If an elder/pastor does not have an internal call, he is not a pastor/elder. God DOES call men to be pastors/elders. He speaks to them, by giving them the desire to be such. This is then confirmed by an external call.


Jer_3:15 And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.


Why do you HATE being under authority? Is it your pride? YOU want to be in charge, right? You don''t like that God called "other" people to do a job, and not you? Such thinking does not come from the Bible, my friend. It comes from your sinful nature. God DOES call men to special places, not because he cannot do it without them, but because he sovereignly chooses to do so. God called David, God called Abraham....and God calls pastors.

 

[alvin]

I have noticed those involved in this discussion are very careful not to equate the pastor as an Elder. Other forums have done the same. The reason for this is it question why they, above all the other Elders receive a salary, why the pastor above all the other Elders is a "shepherd" why the pastor is a career and Elders are volunteers, and...many, many churches just do not have Elders because they have been supplanted.

So, shepherds are not an office...and pastors are not Elders if I understand these comments on this forum. Then...who are they and why do they prevent the only Holy Spirit appointed overseers of the Church from taking their proper place.

Any of you pastors consider yourself to be "the" Elder of the Church? Fair question? If so, did the Church call you, anoint you, ordain you as an Elder? How can a Church have only one Elder? Do you have other Elders? Are they ordained as we do pastors, are they paid or expected to shepherd and oversee the Church for free while only the pastor receives a salary, housing allowance, auto allowance...and so on. Do your Elders preach or just the pastor?

 

[alvin]

Any of you pastors consider yourself to be "the" Elder of the Church? Fair question? If so, did the Church call you, anoint you, ordain you as an Elder? How can a Church have only one Elder? Do you have other Elders? Are they ordained as we do pastors, are they paid or expected to shepherd and oversee the Church for free while only the pastor receives a salary, housing allowance, auto allowance...and so on. Do your Elders preach or just the pastor?

If you are an Elder...why do you call yourself a pastor? BTW, show me a single verse in the entire corpus of the Bible where there is a single instance where pastor is equivalent to bishop or Elder. In Acts 20, I Peter 5 it says clearly that the work of the Elders is to Shepherd. That is a verb in the Greek...it means it is something the Elders are to do. Therefore, either you are chosen by the Church, as recognized by the Holy SPirit and ordained as an Elder....not a pastor. And...if you are an Elder...then abandon the title of pastor, claiming it as a office. It is misleading and certainly unbiblical.

 

[DHK]

Actualy, I was hoping you would say that a pastor is the same thing as an Elder. First, where in the Bible do you find this. Second, if you are an Elder then why do you claim the title "pastor" and not Elder. Finanly, where are the rest of the Elders in your church? The point I make in this forum is that some who claim the title "pastor" has replaced the only Spirit ordained people in the Bible, Elders. I have heard so many pastors claimed to be "called." Do you undertand what they are saying when they say that? They are saying they are so special that God chose them out of all humanity to do something no can do but them...and we have to take their word for that. Ask 10 pastors what they mean when the say they were "called" and it is always a "feeling" they get. No voice from God, at least no voice anyone can hear but themselves. Fred Phelps says he is called. Makes the same claim other pastors make.

Let's take a look at Scripture:

Acts 20:17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.
--At Miletus Paul calls for the spiritual leaders of the Ephesian church. They are called "elders." They are the pastors of the church. Timothy was the pastor that Paul had left in charge. They had one senior pastor, but a plurality of pastors.
--The Greek word here for elder is "presbuteros."
It was customary on Paul's missionary journeys for him to make sure that there was a pastor left in charge of the church before he left that church.

Acts 14:23 And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
--Here he is speaking to the same men, which he has already called elders.
He calls them "overseers" (episkopos). It is the same word used in 1Tim.3:1,2 translated as "bishop."
Now we see that the pastor is the elder, the bishop, the overseer of the church.

What was their work? It was "to feed the church (Ephesian church)"..."the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers."
--This describes the work of a Shepherd, the word used for "pastor."

In fact Peter knew well what it meant to feed the flock, the sheep and lambs which Christ had entrusted to him.

1 Peter 5:1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

Then, he says:
1 Peter 5:3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.
--The teaching here is that we, as pastors, are His under-shepherds.
He is the chief Shepherd.

As pastors we have a great responsibility and our responsibility is to Christ the Chief Shepherd who is coming again.
Every pastor should be looking for that coming and be fully anticipating it.

In Acts 20:17,28, therefore we see all of the different offices given to one person: the pastor of the church.

 

[alvin]

If you are an Elder...why do you call yourself a pastor? BTW, show me a single verse in the entire corpus of the Bible where there is a single instance where pastor is equivalent to bishop or Elder. In Acts 20, I Peter 5 it says clearly that the work of the Elders is to Shepherd. That is a verb in the Greek...it means it is something the Elders are to do. Therefore, either you are chosen by the Church, as recognized by the Holy SPirit and ordained as an Elder....not a pastor. And...if you are an Elder...then abandon the title of pastor, claiming it as a office. It is misleading and certainly unbiblical.

Again....to all the pastors....if you are an Elder...why do you reject that term Elder and choose another? Are you ordained as a Elder? What title do you use on your business card, sign in front of the Church, what title do you have the church? Do you think it is wise to ignore the clear and unambiguous teaching of Scripture and identify yourself with any office other than that of the Elders?

 

[Havensdad]

DHK,

At this point this man is doing nothing but copying and pasting over and over again. he has refused to engage with people who have CLEARLY refuted him...

I guess my question is, at what point do you shut him down? Isn't trolling a violation of the rules?

 

[Havensdad]

Again....to all the pastors....if you are an Elder...why do you reject that term Elder and choose another?

Again, why do reject the Biblical term pastor?

Are you ordained as a Elder?

As a pastor or elder or overseer...yes. Same thing.

What title do you use on your business card, sign in front of the Church, what title do you have the church?

My business card says "Brother" actually. (As in "Brother Damon")

However, my people call me Pastor, because that is what they know. I am fine with that, because that is a title given by the Bible.

Do you think it is wise to ignore the clear and unambiguous teaching of Scripture and identify yourself with any office other than that of the Elders?

I think it is unwise of you to take scissors to the Book of Ephesians, and Jeremiah, which clearly call us PASTORS....

 

[alvin]

Let's take a look at Scripture:

Acts 20:17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.
--At Miletus Paul calls for the spiritual leaders of the Ephesian church. They are called "elders." They are the pastors of the church. Timothy was the pastor that Paul had left in charge. They had one senior pastor, but a plurality of pastors.
--The Greek word here for elder is "presbuteros."
It was customary on Paul's missionary journeys for him to make sure that there was a pastor left in charge of the church before he left that church.

Acts 14:23 And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
--Here he is speaking to the same men, which he has already called elders.
He calls them "overseers" (episkopos). It is the same word used in 1Tim.3:1,2 translated as "bishop."
Now we see that the pastor is the elder, the bishop, the overseer of the church.

What was their work? It was "to feed the church (Ephesian church)"..."the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers."
--This describes the work of a Shepherd, the word used for "pastor."

In fact Peter knew well what it meant to feed the flock, the sheep and lambs which Christ had entrusted to him.

1 Peter 5:1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

Then, he says:
1 Peter 5:3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.
--The teaching here is that we, as pastors, are His under-shepherds.
He is the chief Shepherd.

As pastors we have a great responsibility and our responsibility is to Christ the Chief Shepherd who is coming again.
Every pastor should be looking for that coming and be fully anticipating it.

In Acts 20:17,28, therefore we see all of the different offices given to one person: the pastor of the church.

You say: "Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
--Here he is speaking to the same men, which he has already called elders.
He calls them "overseers" (episkopos). It is the same word used in 1Tim.3:1,2 translated as "bishop."
Now we see that the pastor is the elder, the bishop, the overseer of the church."

What? How to you come to the conclusion that a pastor is an Elder from this verse? Just the oposite...check your Greek...it is ποιμαίνειν, a verb! Not a noun, not a person....Paul is telling the Elders to "do something" an act, an action, and that is "to shepherd" the Church. This is very simple to understand.

 

[alvin]

You say: "Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
--Here he is speaking to the same men, which he has already called elders.
He calls them "overseers" (episkopos). It is the same word used in 1Tim.3:1,2 translated as "bishop."
Now we see that the pastor is the elder, the bishop, the overseer of the church."

What? How to you come to the conclusion that a pastor is an Elder from this verse? Just the oposite...check your Greek...it is ποιμαίνειν, a verb! Not a noun, not a person....Paul is telling the Elders to "do something" an act, an action, and that is "to shepherd" the Church. This is very simple to understand.

Ask yourself, if you are Elders overseeing the Church then that means the welfare of the Church will be your greatest interest. Not protecting a career, protecting a salary, or preserving a coveted title. It would take great courage on your part to cease being a pastor and restoring the Eldership to your churches. As I said...were Paul or Peter would to tour our Churches to day they would ask "WHere are your Elders? Was I not clear in my Letters? And who are these people who are calling themselves pastors?" "By what authority have they ended the rule of the Elders?"

 

[Havensdad]

You say: "Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
--Here he is speaking to the same men, which he has already called elders.
He calls them "overseers" (episkopos). It is the same word used in 1Tim.3:1,2 translated as "bishop."
Now we see that the pastor is the elder, the bishop, the overseer of the church."

What? How to you come to the conclusion that a pastor is an Elder from this verse? Just the oposite...check your Greek...it is ποιμαίνειν, a verb! Not a noun, not a person....Paul is telling the Elders to "do something" an act, an action, and that is "to shepherd" the Church. This is very simple to understand.

A Pastor (shepherd...same thing) is a person who pastors (shepherds). If you are commanded to pastor, then you ARE a pastor. You are making a ridiculous argument, and ignoring Ephesians, where we are explicitly CALLED Pastors (not just "commanded" to pastor).

What a ridiculous argument.

 

[pk4life]

There's many terms we use nowadays that aren't found in the Bible.

If a pastor is acting in accordance with the scriptures, and is acting as an elder, I don't really care what term is used to describe them.

The problems result when it becomes a one-man show. When all your other leadership in the church become "yes men" to one person, then it doesn't really matter what you call yourself.

If you call it a college of elders, and one man takes precedence and everyone coddles to him, it doesn't make any difference.

 

[Havensdad]

Ask yourself, if you are Elders overseeing the Church then that means the welfare of the Church will be your greatest interest. Not protecting a career, protecting a salary, or preserving a coveted title. It would take great courage on your part to cease being a pastor and restoring the Eldership to your churches. As I said...were Paul or Peter would to tour our Churches to day they would ask "WHere are your Elders? Was I not clear in my Letters? And who are these people who are calling themselves pastors?" "By what authority have they ended the rule of the Elders?"

And disobedient to scripture, no less.

1Co_9:14 In the same way, the Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel.

You know, you are an extremely offensive and hateful person. Your sitting here talking about us Elders/pastors as if we are raking in money. I left a 6 figure income job, to make about the same thing I would make at McDonalds, only I work 90+ hours a week....

HOW DARE YOU attack men of God like this. I do not know a single pastor or elder who is in this for the money. If they are they are a MORON, because we barely scrape by. You are a disgusting person, and I consider this a personal attack.

 

[alvin]

Ask yourself, if you are Elders overseeing the Church then that means the welfare of the Church will be your greatest interest. Not protecting a career, protecting a salary, or preserving a coveted title. It would take great courage on your part to cease being a pastor and restoring the Eldership to your churches. As I said...were Paul or Peter would to tour our Churches to day they would ask "WHere are your Elders? Was I not clear in my Letters? And who are these people who are calling themselves pastors?" "By what authority have they ended the rule of the Elders?"

Do you know why I do not just go away and wash my hands of this whole issue? It is because it is the people who call themselves the "pastors" that prevent from the Elders within their own churches from rising and taking their rightful place of being the true shepherds and overseers of God's Church. There can never be a single healthy church that turns its back on the Bible and decides to do it another way simply because everyone else is doing it another way. Either a Church is Bible Believing or not...if it is Bible believing then restore the Elders to your Church. If not, then get rid of the Elders, claim you are the only Elder of the Church but call yourself pastor...not Elder, lest they look in the Bible and see there is never a Elder who stands alone.

 

[alvin]

A Pastor (shepherd...same thing) is a person who pastors (shepherds). If you are commanded to pastor, then you ARE a pastor. You are making a ridiculous argument, and ignoring Ephesians, where we are explicitly CALLED Pastors (not just "commanded" to pastor).

What a ridiculous argument.

You can shepherd all you want...just NOT the Church...that is reserved for the Elders only.

 

[DHK]

You say: "Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
--Here he is speaking to the same men, which he has already called elders.

That is right, he has just called them elders. He called the elders together. That is what he referred to them as--elders.

He calls them "overseers" (episkopos). It is the same word used in 1Tim.3:1,2 translated as "bishop."

Yes. So the elder and the overseer or bishop are the same person.

Now we see that the pastor is the elder, the bishop, the overseer of the church."

What? How to you come to the conclusion that a pastor is an Elder from this verse?

Because, as just shown, they are all names for the same office.

Just the oposite...check your Greek...it is ποιμαίνειν, a verb! Not a noun, not a person....Paul is telling the Elders to "do something" an act, an action, and that is "to shepherd" the Church. This is very simple to understand.

And that is the work of these same men, no matter what name you give them. Elder, overseer, bishop, etc. The had the work of shepherding the flock. They were the same men that Paul was addressing. He at no time changed his audience. He was still addressing the same men that he previously addressed elders in verse 17.

 

[Havensdad]

You can shepherd all you want...just NOT the Church...that is reserved for the Elders only.

An elder IS a shepherd/pastor. Same thing. Since I am an elder, called by God, and confirmed by other elders/pastors, I do not believe I answer to you.

Why do you DESPISE the Scripture?

 

[alvin]

And disobedient to scripture, no less.

1Co_9:14 In the same way, the Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel.

You know, you are an extremely offensive and hateful person. Your sitting here talking about us Elders/pastors as if we are raking in money. I left a 6 figure income job, to make about the same thing I would make at McDonalds, only I work 90+ hours a week....

HOW DARE YOU attack men of God like this. I do not know a single pastor or elder who is in this for the money. If they are they are a MORON, because we barely scrape by. You are a disgusting person, and I consider this a personal attack.

When you refer to "men of God" do mean all people or just that special category called "pastors?" What attack have I mounted against anyone? All I have done is presented Bible verses and they do say what they say. Are these Bible verses what you consider an attack on men of God?