Crazy Pope!!

[Yeshua1]

When you actually know what you are talking about when it comes to this subject then maybe you might have something to say.

Don't forget the Catholic teaching "extra ecclesiam nulla salus". Which has nothing to do with works.

official catholic doctrine since vatican II is that God does and will save those of other faiths, especially Jews and muslims, as they worship same God as we do, per the church!

God looks at their piety and sincere devoation to their faith as responding in a saving fashion to the light they received, as he knows they would have accepted the RCC teachings if had that light offerred them!

the pope is just expanding that to iclude sincere athiests, who are responding in afavorable fashion to the light they had from God...


THAT is official catholic doctrine!

what is also still official is that no catholic who willing rejected that faith and became another one is saved, nor are those who know true cathoic doctrines and 'reject the faith!"

 

[Thinkingstuff]

official catholic doctrine since vatican II is that God does and will save those of other faiths, especially Jews and muslims, as they worship same God as we do, per the church!

God looks at their piety and sincere devoation to their faith as responding in a saving fashion to the light they received, as he knows they would have accepted the RCC teachings if had that light offerred them!

the pope is just expanding that to iclude sincere athiests, who are responding in afavorable fashion to the light they had from God...


THAT is official catholic doctrine!

what is also still official is that no catholic who willing rejected that faith and became another one is saved, nor are those who know true cathoic doctrines and 'reject the faith!"

That's not the official doctrine read it again.

To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled."

and

Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:


Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

The exception is stated as such and its important to note key word which I have bolded for you and my comment in parenthesis

Although in ways known to himself God can (in other words if there is a means outside of the Church by which one can be saved and known to God it is within God's prerogative to save them it doesn't require him to do so) lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel,(In other words if you have knowledge of the Gospel or have been exposed to the faith this exception doesn't apply to you. This line speaks only to those who never was exposed to the Gospel because of their circumstance like a Celt living 200 years before Jesus Christ think of Melchizedek who wasn't under Abrahams covenant yet somehow became exposed to God. And generally speaking I would believe there are today very few in this situation.) to that faith without which it is impossible to please him,(and still faith must be exhibited by these under the "exception".) the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

What the Catholic Church really teaches about Jews and Muslims is that God is calling them to the Church for their salvation but they have the advantage of having some similarity with the Christian faith. But just being Jewish or Muslim isn't enough for salvation. That is the real teaching of the Catholic Church.

 

[Yeshua1]

That's not the official doctrine read it again.
and

The exception is stated as such and its important to note key word which I have bolded for you and my comment in parenthesis What the Catholic Church really teaches about Jews and Muslims is that God is calling them to the Church for their salvation but they have the advantage of having some similarity with the Christian faith. But just being Jewish or Muslim isn't enough for salvation. That is the real teaching of the Catholic Church.

the church sees Jews and Muslims as worshipping same God as Christians, being people of the book, and as such, DO teach that God credits those faithful in their religions to what they know as being saved by God,a s he knows that based upon how they responded to light they received, they would have chosen to become catholic, so salvation by proxy!

You know the RCC reaches that others are saved outside of Christ, now even Athiests!

 

[Thinkingstuff]

the church sees Jews and Muslims as worshipping same God as Christians, being people of the book, and as such, DO teach that God credits those faithful in their religions to what they know as being saved by God,a s he knows that based upon how they responded to light they received, they would have chosen to become catholic, so salvation by proxy!

You know this is problematic to discussion. I show you what the Catholic Church teaches by its own authoritative document and you ignore it and spout out your misconception once again. Muslims and Jews are Monotheistic and apply the same attributes to their one God that we do. These are our similarities. However, it is wrong to say as you did "that God credits those faithful in their religions to what they know as being saved by God". Once again you need to re-read what I posted from the Catechism regarding this topic and find that you aren't correct.

You know the RCC reaches that others are saved outside of Christ, now even Athiests!

You once again fail to comprehend what it is you read. Re-read my post to see what it is the Catholic Church teaches. And then read what the Pope actually said. He never said Atheist are saved. That was a misleading title by a British newspaper. Again know your topic before saying something. And if you make an assertion prove it.

 

[Walter]

You know this is problematic to discussion. I show you what the Catholic Church teaches by its own authoritative document and you ignore it and spout out your misconception once again. Muslims and Jews are Monotheistic and apply the same attributes to their one God that we do. These are our similarities. However, it is wrong to say as you did "that God credits those faithful in their religions to what they know as being saved by God". Once again you need to re-read what I posted from the Catechism regarding this topic and find that you aren't correct.


You once again fail to comprehend what it is you read. Re-read my post to see what it is the Catholic Church teaches. And then read what the Pope actually said. He never said Atheist are saved. That was a misleading title by a British newspaper. Again know your topic before saying something. And if you make an assertion prove it.

Yeshua1 continues to spout these kinds of assertions because Yeshua1 continually chooses to ignore the truth about what the Church documents actually say. It doesn't matter how many times it is pointed out that he/she is making false accusations. They will continue to be made. I don't know how many times it has been shown to Yeshua1 that the pope NEVER said atheists' are saved, he/she continues to falsely accuse him of saying that.

Your right, TS, Yeshua1 should be able to PROVE these assertions but of course cannot.

 

[Yeshua1]

You know this is problematic to discussion. I show you what the Catholic Church teaches by its own authoritative document and you ignore it and spout out your misconception once again. Muslims and Jews are Monotheistic and apply the same attributes to their one God that we do. These are our similarities. However, it is wrong to say as you did "that God credits those faithful in their religions to what they know as being saved by God". Once again you need to re-read what I posted from the Catechism regarding this topic and find that you aren't correct.


You once again fail to comprehend what it is you read. Re-read my post to see what it is the Catholic Church teaches. And then read what the Pope actually said. He never said Atheist are saved. That was a misleading title by a British newspaper. Again know your topic before saying something. And if you make an assertion prove it.

The RCC says that Christians/Jews/ and Muslim worship same God, and that those who are sincere in their faith will have the Lord credit that towards them, as He sees that as evidence they would have received RCC as the real church if they but knew!

NOT all muslims and jews and other faiths will be saved per RCC, but the sincere and devoted ones to those religions will indeed get saved!

 

[Walter]

Let's take a look at what pope Francis said in his sermon last Sunday. 'Faith in Jesus Christ came in with the New Testament and the Resurrection. That was the event that signaled the change in man’s relation to God.

No longer would man strive to attain righteousness through works of the law – Jesus’ sacrifice had bridged that gap for all who accepted Him as their Savior. But at the same time, Jesus’ sacrifice meant that the choice for humans – God /Jesus or man – was now more stark than it ever had been before.'

Pretty clear what he says changes man's relationship to God. Accepting Jesus as Savior.

 

[Walter]

the church sees Jews and Muslims as worshipping same God as Christians, being people of the book, and as such, DO teach that God credits those faithful in their religions to what they know as being saved by God,a s he knows that based upon how they responded to light they received, they would have chosen to become catholic, so salvation by proxy!

You know the RCC reaches that others are saved outside of Christ, now even Athiests!

And you continue to ignore what the Church actually teaches as TS has stated above and I will re-post here. What part of it don't you understand?

Although in ways known to himself God can (in other words if there is a means outside of the Church by which one can be saved and known to God it is within God's prerogative to save them it doesn't require him to do so) lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel,(In other words if you have knowledge of the Gospel or have been exposed to the faith this exception doesn't apply to you. This line speaks only to those who never was exposed to the Gospel because of their circumstance like a Celt living 200 years before Jesus Christ think of Melchizedek who wasn't under Abrahams covenant yet somehow became exposed to God. And generally speaking I would believe there are today very few in this situation.) to that faith without which it is impossible to please him,(and still faith must be exhibited by these under the "exception".) the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

"What the Catholic Church really teaches about Jews and Muslims is that God is calling them to the Church for their salvation but they have the advantage of having some similarity with the Christian faith. But just being Jewish or Muslim isn't enough for salvation. That is the real teaching of the Catholic Church." (Thinkingstuff)

 

[Yeshua1]

And you continue to ignore what the Church actually teaches as TS has stated above and I will re-post here. What part of it don't you understand?

Although in ways known to himself God can (in other words if there is a means outside of the Church by which one can be saved and known to God it is within God's prerogative to save them it doesn't require him to do so) lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel,(In other words if you have knowledge of the Gospel or have been exposed to the faith this exception doesn't apply to you. This line speaks only to those who never was exposed to the Gospel because of their circumstance like a Celt living 200 years before Jesus Christ think of Melchizedek who wasn't under Abrahams covenant yet somehow became exposed to God. And generally speaking I would believe there are today very few in this situation.) to that faith without which it is impossible to please him,(and still faith must be exhibited by these under the "exception".) the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

"What the Catholic Church really teaches about Jews and Muslims is that God is calling them to the Church for their salvation but they have the advantage of having some similarity with the Christian faith. But just being Jewish or Muslim isn't enough for salvation. That is the real teaching of the Catholic Church." (Thinkingstuff)

is this official cathoilc teaching or not?
www.religioustolerance.org/rcc_othe4.htm

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

I find it truly mystifying and amazing that there are otherwise good, God-fearing people who are willing to believe that someone of a specific faith or denomination preaches heresy without actually looking at what that man said.

Anyone with a brain can read his comments and see he did not "assure atheists they can go to heaven without believing in God." That is an absurd, truly ignorant conclusion based on total fallacy.

We as Christians need to stop demonizing the largest Christian denomination in the world, and worry about our own backyard. The fictions told about the Catholic Church are numerous and vicious. Believe them if you wish, but why you would want to waste your time doing so is beyond me.

 

[Walter]

I find it truly mystifying and amazing that there are otherwise good, God-fearing people who are willing to believe that someone of a specific faith or denomination preaches heresy without actually looking at what that man said.

Anyone with a brain can read his comments and see he did not "assure atheists they can go to heaven without believing in God." That is an absurd, truly ignorant conclusion based on total fallacy.

We as Christians need to stop demonizing the largest Christian denomination in the world, and worry about our own backyard. The fictions told about the Catholic Church are numerous and vicious. Believe them if you wish, but why you would want to waste your time doing so is beyond me.

:applause::applause:

 

[Walter]

is this official cathoilc teaching or not?
www.religioustolerance.org/rcc_othe4.htm

If you REALLY want to know what the Catholic Church teaches and not what others SAY the Catholic Church teaches, pick up a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church and read it for yourself. Thinkingstuff has quoted directly from the Catechism and shown how mistaken you are. You just refuse to accept it.

 

[Yeshua1]

If you REALLY want to know what the Catholic Church teaches and not what others SAY the Catholic Church teaches, pick up a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church and read it for yourself. Thinkingstuff has quoted directly from the Catechism and shown how mistaken you are. You just refuse to accept it.

Straight off that document then!

Rome teaches heresy of baptismal regeneration, teaches salvation by mixture of faith and good works, teach sacramental grace heresy, Eucherist heresy, heresay of the papacy etc...

really, pretty much all bad theology!

 

[BobRyan]

http://www.americamagazine.org/pope-interview

http://www.americamagazine.org/pope-interview

I mention to Pope Francis that there are Christians who live in situations that are irregular for the church or in complex situations that represent open wounds. I mention the divorced and remarried, same-sex couples and other difficult situations. What kind of pastoral work can we do in these cases? What kinds of tools can we use?
“We need to proclaim the Gospel on every street corner,” the pope says, “preaching the good news of the kingdom and healing, even with our preaching, every kind of disease and wound. In Buenos Aires I used to receive letters from homosexual persons who are ‘socially wounded’ because they tell me that they feel like the church has always condemned them. But the church does not want to do this. During the return flight from Rio de Janeiro I said that if a homosexual person is of good will and is in search of God, I am no one to judge. By saying this, I said what the catechism says. Religion has the right to express its opinion in the service of the people, but God in creation has set us free: it is not possible to interfere spiritually in the life of a person.




A person once asked me, in a provocative manner, if I approved of homosexuality. I replied with another question: ‘Tell me: when God looks at a gay person, does he endorse the existence of this person with love, or reject and condemn this person?’ We must always consider the person. “A person once asked me, in a provocative manner, if I approved of homosexuality. I replied with another question: ‘Tell me: when God looks at a gay person, does he endorse the existence of this person with love, or reject and condemn this person?’ We must always consider the person.

The Pope is quick to spin the simple question about approving of a sin the Bible calls an abomination - around to "how much do you value people".


Interesting spin-doctoring. I wonder where this is leading.



in Christ,


Bob