Misapplied verses

[Herald]

So the assemblies have been given 'power and authority over all demons, and to cure diseases', or, to turn one over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh?

My 'method of interpretation' is perfectly in line with Charles Hodge's three simple rules:

1. The Scriptures are to be taken in the sense attached to them in the age and by the people to whom they were addressed.

2. Scripture cannot contradict Scripture.

3. The Scriptures are to be interpreted under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, which guidance is to be humbly and earnestly sought.

Me thinks you are boxing yourself into a corner. Almost all of scripture is written to a primary audience; either a person or group of people. Most scholars agree Matthew was written to a Jewish audience due to his genealogy in chapter 1 and his distinct Judaistic references throughout his gospel. Even though scripture has a primary audience it is binding upon, and applies to, our life. In chapter 18 Jesus was talking to His disciples. Almost every reputable scholar (Calvin, Henry, Gill, Rutherford, Spurgeon, Edwards, Dagg, Piper, MacArthur, Sproul et. al.), alive and dead, views Matthew 18:15-20 as establishing the procedure for church discipline. Even though the word ecclessia in verse 17 is translated "church" before the New Testament church was inaugurated, it applies to the church since God has always had one called out people.

 

[kyredneck]

Back up to the 7th verse which I consider to be prophetic:

"Woe unto the world because of occasions of stumbling! for it must needs be that the occasions come; but woe to that man through whom the occasion cometh!"

Christ is foretelling EXACTLY the same thing Paul was in Acts 20:

29 I know that after my departing grievous wolves shall enter in among you, not sparing the flock;
30 and from among your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.

Sure, this is about Church discipline, but in this context is about guarding the Church in her infancy from false doctrine, primarily from the Judaizers and related Gnostics soon to come. The metaphor here is that is painful like cutting off a member of your own body to exclude one you've grown to love because they're holding to teachings that are not healthful.

 

[Herald]

Sure, this is about Church discipline...

Thank you. All the other points you brought up may have validity, but as to the distinction between how this passage is often missaplied and what it means to the Church today, church discipline is the most relevant point.

 

[Mexdeaf]

I skipped over most of the thread due to time, but... I had a friend post a video about "How we should dress for worship" on FB. It was a 30 minute message of twisted Scripture. I only made it through 10 minutes.

God's people should demand accountability to the Scriptures from the pulpit. If your pastor is using the Scriptures to support his pet beliefs, you need to find another church.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I skipped over most of the thread due to time, but... I had a friend post a video about "How we should dress for worship" on FB. It was a 30 minute message of twisted Scripture. I only made it through 10 minutes.

God's people should demand accountability to the Scriptures from the pulpit. If your pastor is using the Scriptures to support his pet beliefs, you need to find another church.

Whoa...that last statement was a mouthful. Are you advocating that ....oh you know.

 

[kyredneck]

Thank you. All the other points you brought up may have validity, but as to the distinction between how this passage is often missaplied and what it means to the Church today, church discipline is the most relevant point.

Once again:

1 In that hour came the disciples unto Jesus.... [edit to add]
18 Verily I say unto you, what things soever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and what things soever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
19 Again I say unto you, that if two of you shall agree on earth as touching anything that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father who is in heaven.

Do you honestly believe the bolded above applies to you and me? This is addressed to His apostles who were given this authority, not to you and me.

1. The Scriptures are to be taken in the sense attached to them in the age and by the people to whom they were addressed.

 

[pinoybaptist]

When I first learned what the passage meant, in context, I was chagrined. I had been a Christian for nearly 25 years and found it hard to swallow that I had jumped on the bandwagon without giving the passage any serious thought. Since then I have had my biblical paradigm broken more than a few times. It is all part of learning.

don't worry, it wasn't an experience unique to you...the bandwagon thing, I mean. been there, done that, and so, I believe, a HOST of others....

 

[Herald]

The Scriptures are to be taken in the sense attached to them in the age and by the people to whom they were addressed.

That is one of the first rules of the historical-grammatical approach to interpretation. I know it all too well. The question is whether a passage of scripture is binding on the Church (and Christians) today. We do not have Apostles or prophets today. The authority of the Apostles is vested in the Church. Not as in the papist view of Apostolic authority, but on the biblical record. We do have the principle of church discipline from Matthew 18 alluded to in James (Jas. 5:20). You also find yourself on an interpretive island all by yourself as the living and dead theologians I previously mentioned disagree with you. In fact, YOU disagree with yourself, when on the one hand agreeing is about church discipline and then on the other hand about apostolic authority.

 

[saturneptune]

Two verses that come to mind that have been disagreed on for a long time, and no doubt there are been threads about them:

1. The verses by Paul about a Pastor or Deacon being the husband of one wife. Does that mean one wife at a time, or only married once? Does it mean single men should not hold the office?

2. A few verses from the end of the Bible in Revelation, where it talks about adding or taking away from the "words of this book" and the consequences, is that talking about the entire Bible or just he book of Revelation?

 

[Bro. Curtis]

The Catholic church has been mis-applying the story of the death of Onan for centuries.

 

[Van]

Great Thread

Matthew 18:20 "For where two or three have gathered in My name, I am there in the midst."

These passage is often used to defend the teaching that Christ is present whenever "two or three" are gathered in His name. I have heard people use this in regards to prayer and even bible studies. But is that what this verse means in its larger context? Let us look at the larger context:

The entire passage is on church discipline. Verses 18-20 teach that God validates the discipline decisions of the local church when the church is agreed on it.

Now, is Christ, through the Holy Spirit, present if two or three Christians are gathered? Certainly. But He is also there if only one is gathered. He is there if thirteen are gathered. It is just that Matthew 18:15-20 is teaching something different.

Why is this important? Because discipline is lawfully applied only within the church, not outside the church.

Thanks for this excellent thread. Discussing the scope of the teaching. Two issues were raised, (1) Does the context allow understanding that when Christians gather, Christ is in their midst, and (2) applicability, can the instruction to others be applied to us, thousands of years later?

Bible study must include at least three steps, figuring out, or at least trying to figure out, what was being taught to the target audience when the message was delivered, what, if any, timeless principles can be gleamed that would apply to us, and three, how we should apply those principles, if any, to our lives.

Clearly, when members of the body of Christ are considering a decision, we should meet with all the stakeholders and do our best to discern the facts, then meditate, pray and search the scriptures, all without haste, to provide the best opportunity to stay centered in the will of God.

Is it reasonable to think this instruction for discipline was only aimed at those assemblies, and would not be applicable to subsequent assemblies? I think not.

 

[kyredneck]

20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. Mt 18

13 And behold, two of them were going that very day to a village named Emmaus, which was threescore furlongs from Jerusalem.
14 And they communed with each other of all these things which had happened.
15 And it came to pass, while they communed and questioned together, that Jesus himself drew near, and went with them. Lu 24

 

[Luke2427]

Yes... this I have heard almost always out of context,and to defend error.
Some confuse the Kingdom of God with the church.

The church IS part of the Kingdom of God.

It is the primary means whereby God expands his welcomed reign over the earth.

 

[Luke2427]

Matthew 18:20 "For where two or three have gathered in My name, I am there in the midst."

These passage is often used to defend the teaching that Christ is present whenever "two or three" are gathered in His name. I have heard people use this in regards to prayer and even bible studies. But is that what this verse means in its larger context? Let us look at the larger context:



The entire passage is on church discipline. Verses 18-20 teach that God validates the discipline decisions of the local church when the church is agreed on it.

Now, is Christ, through the Holy Spirit, present if two or three Christians are gathered? Certainly. But He is also there if only one is gathered. He is there if thirteen are gathered. It is just that Matthew 18:15-20 is teaching something different.

Why is this important? Because discipline is lawfully applied only within the church, not outside the church.

You are absolutely right in your exegesis.

Your post, however, seems to imply that since this verse does not denote a special presence of God amidst the gathering of his people to worship him that there IS no special presence of God in such gatherings.

This, of course, is not true.

God does indeed inhabit the praises of his people, there is a special presence of Christ at the Lord's Supper, etc..

 

[Herald]

You are absolutely right in your exegesis.

Your post, however, seems to imply that since this verse does not denote a special presence of God amidst the gathering of his people to worship him that there IS no special presence of God in such gatherings.

This, of course, is not true.

God does indeed inhabit the praises of his people, there is a special presence of Christ at the Lord's Supper, etc..

I was not addressing the presence of Christ during worship or the Lord's Supper (which I agree with). My focus was on the incorrect interpretation of Matthew 18.

 

[Luke2427]

I was not addressing the presence of Christ during worship or the Lord's Supper (which I agree with). My focus was on the incorrect interpretation of Matthew 18.

As I said, you were correct.

Here's another misapplied verse:

John 3:16 (And about 75% of all other verses which contain the word "world" in them)

"world" hardly EVER means every single individual person on earth throughout history.

It almost NEVER means that.

 

[kyredneck]

The church IS part of the Kingdom of God.

It is the primary means whereby God expands his welcomed reign over the earth.

We are ambassadors of Christ the King, the Churches are the embassies of His Kingdom, and home for His sheep who are aliens in a strange land.

 

[pinoybaptist]

this thread is on its fourth page, so I don't know if somebody already suggested the following as an often misapplied verse, quoted to people who are undergoing trials and tribulations or in the grip of some oft-recurring sin, even if they are not part of a church but merely a "prospect" soul to be "won" to Christ.

Romans 8:28 - And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

this thread is on its fourth page, so I don't know if somebody already suggested the following as an often misapplied verse, quoted to people who are undergoing trials and tribulations or in the grip of some oft-recurring sin, even if they are not part of a church but merely a "prospect" soul to be "won" to Christ.

Romans 8:28 - And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Amen.....thanks for putting it in context. :thumbsup:

 

[percho]

Once again:

1 In that hour came the disciples unto Jesus.... [edit to add]
18 Verily I say unto you, what things soever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and what things soever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
19 Again I say unto you, that if two of you shall agree on earth as touching anything that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father who is in heaven.

Do you honestly believe the bolded above applies to you and me? This is addressed to His apostles who were given this authority, not to you and me.

1. The Scriptures are to be taken in the sense attached to them in the age and by the people to whom they were addressed.

Also is a key to this discussion; What is the context of thy brother in verse 15?

A brother in what manner?