No, I got this from Bro. Sam! Do you know him?
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Cessationist or Continuationist?
- Thread starter Luke2427
- Start date
No, I got this from Bro. Sam! Do you know him?
You did not source it in your post. You past it off as your own work. That is called plagiarism. It seems you have a habit of doing this across the internet. And it is wrong.
Bro. Sam taught this in a conference and I took notes! I do not believe all that He stated...I stated just what I believe and why?You did not source it in your post. You past it off as your own work. That is called plagiarism. It seems you have a habit of doing this across the internet. And it is wrong.
Bro. Sam taught this in a conference and I took notes! I do not believe all that He stated...I stated just what I believe and why?
Haven't we been down this road before? Did you not asses points because of it? When post material belonging to someone else, especially when you post it word for word, then you have to mention that person as a source for what you posted and or provide an online link. You did none of that, you have done this before, and you are being dishonest by trying to lead everyone to believe it is your work. And to boot it looks like you over at grace centered board as well doing the same thing.
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Yes, I have more points...but they are not all from the same teacher! I have many notebooks full of good teachings!Haven't we been down this road before? Did you not asses points because of it?
Maybe you would like to address the post...
I am not saying it is my work...I am just stating what I believe. There is no way I could copy word for word at that conference!
Yes, I have more points...but they are not all from the same teacher! I have many notebooks full of good teachings!
Maybe you would like to address the post...
Oh I am quite sure the mods will be addressing it.
Yes, I have more points...but they are not all from the same teacher! I have many notebooks full of good teachings!
Maybe you would like to address the post...
I am not saying it is my work...I am just stating what I believe. There is no way I could copy word for word at that conference!
And yet you posted it word for word from his website on this board.
I stated what I believe and why! Prove the points wrong!Oh I am quite sure the mods will be addressing it.
I stated what I believe and why! Prove the points wrong!
Other members were very kind to you the last time assuming you just did not know any better and explained it to you. Shame on you.
First, if you wouldn't plagiarize someone else's material you might be able to express yourself more coherently or intelligently.Well, no secret what I believe on this board...
I believe that the gifts/manifestation of the Holy Spirit is still present today!
1. There is NO biblical evidence indicating they are not valid. If certain gifts have ceased, the burden of proof is on the cessationist to prove it.
A gift is not a manifestation. A manifestation is not a gift.
A gift can be manifested. You have never taken the time to learn the proper use of this word. Because of your continual plagiarism, you post things that don't make sense.
Second, the onus is on you to bring the evidence to the table that such gifts exist. If you claim these gifts give your burden of proof. One does not prove a negative (they don't exist), but rather, one proves an assertion.
For example if you say "I believe that there are purple hopping bunny rabbits on the moon," then you must provide that evidence.
I am a cessationist. I don't believe you. And in this case a complete non believer. Why is the burden of proof on me? It isn't. You prove your "belief" of purple hopping bunny rabbits on the moon, and you prove that the miraculous speaking of actual languages, and the gift of performing miracles, and the gift of being able to heal others is for today!!
Where is your evidence. I want to see it. Where is your burden of proof?
The onus is on you to provide the proof or admit that what you have is completely fraudulent.
Can you provide evidence?
Or is what you practice fraudulent--just like what Benny Hinn and Peter Popov do?
thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
1 Corinthians 13:8-10. Take it or leave it.1. There is NO biblical evidence indicating they are not valid. If certain gifts have ceased, the burden of proof is on the cessationist to prove it.
As DHK has said, the manifestation of the Holy Spirit is not just the "signs and wonders" gifts -- which were only given as confirmation of the gospel message as originating with God -- but the overall evidence of His work in the believer.2.The purpose of each gift is to build up the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:7; 14:3,26).
You lift that verse out of context and misrepresent its meaning. Though the word "gift" is translated from the Greek charisma, the meaning is to have received something without any merit on your own part, and that gift is the Holy Spirit, who indwells because of the first gift of faith, which comes only from God.3. 1 Corinthians 1:4-9 implies that the gifts of the Spirit are operative until “the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ” (v. 7).
You ignore the context in which v. 13 is given, having first stated in v. 11 that the gifting he is speaking of relates to the calling of apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. No mention is made of the "signs and wonders."Ephesians 4:11-13 also dates the duration of the gifts... “until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fulness of Christ” (v. 13).
4.I see the gifts were given to the early church is still needed in todays church.[/quote]No they are not. The witness of believers is sufficient to confirm the origin of the message.
5. Spiritual gifts such as prophecy, tongues, dreams and visions, are stated by Peter to be the fruit of the outpouring of the Spirit, the latter being the evidence for the advent and presence of the "last days" (Acts 2:17).[/QUOTE]Emphasis on the word ADVENT. This was fulfilled with the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.
Well, no secret what I believe on this board...
I believe that the gifts/manifestation of the Holy Spirit is still present today!
1. There is NO biblical evidence indicating they are not valid. If certain gifts have ceased, the burden of proof is on the cessationist to prove it.
Yes there is though you would not need it to believe they HAVE ceased... since... they DID.
Also the Bible pattern is for miracles to explode on the seen for a brief period of time, accomplish some purpose and then fade away. That's what we see with with Moses' day, Elijah's day and Paul's day.
The Bible pattern is clear. One should no more expect to speak in tongues than he should expect to part the Red Sea.
2.The purpose of each gift is to build up the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:7; 14:3,26). I do not see the church...past or present...that does not need edification. I do believe that the gifts were important for the birth of the church... but I also see a need for them in the continuation of growth of the church.
MILLIONS of churches have won billions to Christ without these particular gifts in two thousand years of history.
Spurgeon did not have them.
George Whitefield did not have them.
Martin Luther did not have them.
They clearly are not needed except to build the first century church up until the word of God could be completed and distributed. When you've got the word of God you do not need tongues, word of knowledge or prophecy. It is redundant.
3. 1 Corinthians 1:4-9 implies that the gifts of the Spirit are operative until “the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ” (v. 7). Ephesians 4:11-13 also dates the duration of the gifts... “until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fulness of Christ” (v. 13). 1 Corinthians 14:39 Paul commands “the brethren,” among whom I include myself, “desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues.” 1 Corinthians 13:8-13 tells us when they will cease...the perfection of the eternal state...upon Christ’s return.
Deal with the first two responses and then I'll start showing you the numerous interpretive errors you make here.
4.I see the gifts were given to the early church is still needed in todays church..just like the observance of the Lord’s Supper is for today and many biblical practices and patterns explicitly ordained in the NT and nowhere does it say they are temporary or restricted to the first century.
This is just point #2 repeated...
5. Spiritual gifts such as prophecy, tongues, dreams and visions, are stated by Peter to be the fruit of the outpouring of the Spirit, the latter being the evidence for the advent and presence of the "last days" (Acts 2:17).
Not "latter"- LAST. And those gifts did just that. They inaugurated the last days or more properly the last age. We are living in it now. You don't have inauguration EVERY day. You have it at the start of a period of time.
Those who believe that miracles do not exist in this age would need to explain one or two of the things I have seen and experienced. And no one should dare to tell me it was the power of the devil or some kind of magic.
A baby was healed from a serious condition at the altar at our church after prayer by pastor and deacons and women of the church and the laying on of hands. We prayed with the expectation of God's intervention and He provided healing. I can honestly say I was granted an unquestioning faith in those moments - as were others - and that baby continues to grow and is an active child today with no trace of her former problems. This is just one thing I have seen.
I wish that some Christians could experience this. I have no claim to any power or righteousness of my own - it was just on this occasion and not something that happens week to week - but it did happen.
That's why I ask - have miracles ceased? My answer is a resounding "no!"
God heals in answer to prayer in every age.
That does not mean the GIFT of healing is for today. There is a huge difference between the two.
However, your faith should be such that it is not STRENGTHENED by such an experience. A healthy faith sees the hand of God in the natural as much as the "super" natural. When you see things with that proper perspective, then you are seeing God doing incredible things all around you all the time.
That is a truly Christian faith that does not need to be propped by unusual events.
USN2Pulpit
New Member
Thanks for your response Luke2427. I was beginning to think my post had been completely ignored. When I posted, I may have misunderstood what you meant by "the charismatic gifts."
I would be interested to know your difference between miraculous healing as a direct response to prayer and "the gift of healing." The difference may be in semantics only - just how we're putting it in words, but at that moment, the healing itself was a gift from God. It has not happened that way since, so I make no claim to having that gift myself, but God moved on that Sunday in a miraculous way.
So for me, whether it was the gift of healing or if it was a miraculous response from God to the prayers - makes no difference to me, because of the lasting physical impact to the child and the change brought about. And that is not to mention how it increased my own faith.
I appreciate your kind response to my post, and I respect your opinion on the matter, even if I'm not sure I completely agree. I'm always anxious on this board posting something like that, because of how some people would respond.
I would be interested to know your difference between miraculous healing as a direct response to prayer and "the gift of healing." The difference may be in semantics only - just how we're putting it in words, but at that moment, the healing itself was a gift from God. It has not happened that way since, so I make no claim to having that gift myself, but God moved on that Sunday in a miraculous way.
So for me, whether it was the gift of healing or if it was a miraculous response from God to the prayers - makes no difference to me, because of the lasting physical impact to the child and the change brought about. And that is not to mention how it increased my own faith.
I appreciate your kind response to my post, and I respect your opinion on the matter, even if I'm not sure I completely agree. I'm always anxious on this board posting something like that, because of how some people would respond.
The sign gifts were for the "last days" of the Old Covenant--in particular, this was the "transition period" between the beginning of the New Covenant and the end of the Old Covenant, the period between the Cross and the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70.
Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Act 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
I believe the final sign in the heavens related to these "last days" may have been a revelation to the Christians in Jerusalem to flee before the siege. Remember that Jesus foretold about the destruction of Jerusalem and instructed His disciples to flee to the mountains (Mat. 24:15-16; Mar. 13:14; Luk. 21:20-22). Yet, He also told them to preach the gospel to all nations (Mat. 28:19-20; Luk. 24:47; Act. 1:8) beginning at Jerusalem, and that they would not finish in Israel before "the Son of man be come" (Mat. 10:23).
Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Act 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
I believe the final sign in the heavens related to these "last days" may have been a revelation to the Christians in Jerusalem to flee before the siege. Remember that Jesus foretold about the destruction of Jerusalem and instructed His disciples to flee to the mountains (Mat. 24:15-16; Mar. 13:14; Luk. 21:20-22). Yet, He also told them to preach the gospel to all nations (Mat. 28:19-20; Luk. 24:47; Act. 1:8) beginning at Jerusalem, and that they would not finish in Israel before "the Son of man be come" (Mat. 10:23).
Thanks for your response Luke2427. I was beginning to think my post had been completely ignored. When I posted, I may have misunderstood what you meant by "the charismatic gifts."
I would be interested to know your difference between miraculous healing as a direct response to prayer and "the gift of healing." The difference may be in semantics only - just how we're putting it in words, but at that moment, the healing itself was a gift from God. It has not happened that way since, so I make no claim to having that gift myself, but God moved on that Sunday in a miraculous way.
So for me, whether it was the gift of healing or if it was a miraculous response from God to the prayers - makes no difference to me, because of the lasting physical impact to the child and the change brought about. And that is not to mention how it increased my own faith.
I appreciate your kind response to my post, and I respect your opinion on the matter, even if I'm not sure I completely agree. I'm always anxious on this board posting something like that, because of how some people would respond.
The "gift of healing" was a gift that God gave a particular person. By that gift they could heal people. Paul had the gift of healing and hundreds came to him, on the Isle of Malta for example, to be healed by him.
This is a VERY VERY VERY different thing from you or I praying fervently for someone deathly ill and God mercifully hearing our prayers and healing them as a result.
God has always done this kind of thing. But this is not the same thing as a particular person being endowed with the "gift" of healing.
The problem with your faith being strengthened by witnessing that is that your faith, if it was of the right sort, could no more be strengthened by such a thing than a steel door could be strengthened by the addition of twig.
What I mean by "right sort" is that you ought to believe in God because the heavens declare his glory and the firmament shows his handiwork; because the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen even his eternal power and godhead; because in him we live and move and have our being; because all things were made by him and by him all things consist (are held together).
If I believe God opens the red rose against the morning sun, it is not a spectacular thing for me to hear that he opened the Red Sea for the Israelites.
If I believe that God is the one who causes my body to fight off disease and illness at every single second of my life- then it is no shocker to me for such a God to reverse an illness that surely could kill me.
I hope this helps.
USN2Pulpit
New Member
Again, thanks for the response Luke. Let me ask this: what if I already believe God in the way that you say all believers should (and I agree with you on this point)? Then, not only being able to witness, but to be a part of God's will, would that not serve to strengthen and reinforce faith?
Do you think Peter's faith was strengthened when he stepped over the side of the boat - and his feet found purchase on the water? Or when sinking, cried out to Jesus and was rescued?
Again - I think we agree with each other, but just see it from a different perspective. If seeing God at work in anything reinforces faith, that does not necessarily mean that something was lacking before. And you're right on the point you made: we shouldn't need to see signs and wonders to believe God.
Hope that helps you understand where I'm coming from on this.
Do you think Peter's faith was strengthened when he stepped over the side of the boat - and his feet found purchase on the water? Or when sinking, cried out to Jesus and was rescued?
Again - I think we agree with each other, but just see it from a different perspective. If seeing God at work in anything reinforces faith, that does not necessarily mean that something was lacking before. And you're right on the point you made: we shouldn't need to see signs and wonders to believe God.
Hope that helps you understand where I'm coming from on this.
Again, thanks for the response Luke. Let me ask this: what if I already believe God in the way that you say all believers should (and I agree with you on this point)? Then, not only being able to witness, but to be a part of God's will, would that not serve to strengthen and reinforce faith?
Do you think Peter's faith was strengthened when he stepped over the side of the boat - and his feet found purchase on the water? Or when sinking, cried out to Jesus and was rescued?
Again - I think we agree with each other, but just see it from a different perspective. If seeing God at work in anything reinforces faith, that does not necessarily mean that something was lacking before. And you're right on the point you made: we shouldn't need to see signs and wonders to believe God.
Hope that helps you understand where I'm coming from on this.
It does mean that something is lacking if it is at all strengthened by a straw. Do you see?
Peter was, like his fellow disciples, often reprimanded by Jesus for his faithlessness.
convicted1
Guest
Do you believe the "charismatic gifts" continue in an unbroken strain from the Apostles to this present day or do you believe they ceased in the first century? Why?
Well if they haven't stopped, then why don't they start walking on water, going to the morgues and raising the dead, finding amputees and giving them their limbs back? There's more to the Apolstolic gifts than tongues, but that's all they harp on. Anyone can "gurgle", I guess.
USN2Pulpit
New Member
...strengthened by a straw
I understand your position - perhaps, like many other, my faith is not as strong as it could be, and the fact that I was strengthened and encouraged means that I still have more growth ahead of me.
I would say that's true every believer though - the capacity for more growth. So I'm glad that at that one point, the Lord threw a straw my way!
Just different ways of looking at things, my brother.