Targeting the Roman Catholic

[preacher4truth]

Gal5:4 - "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace".

Ouch!! Ye are fallen from Grace!! Does this then mean you have lost your salvation??

Steaver, he will never see it.

He is out trying to get carnal 'christians' to reform, and to believe that their works will merit salvation, in other words he wants to get the world to act like they are saved so that they will believe by doing so that they are. This instead of convincing the lost that they are just that -- lost. But he will get a few goats to jump through hoops and believe they are saved until he gets his next circuit in their town, then they can repeat the cycle.

Bottom line is ev6 is a false teacher, and EWF telling you to let it go is shameful. There is not a place in Scripture that supports EWF's take. Preach it. :thumbs:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Steaver, he will never see it.

He is out trying to get carnal 'christians' to reform, and to believe that their works will merit salvation, in other words he wants to get the world to act like they are saved so that they will believe by doing so that they are. This instead of convincing the lost that they are just that -- lost. But he will get a few goats to jump through hoops and believe they are saved until he gets his next circuit in their town, then they can repeat the cycle.

Bottom line is ev6 is a false teacher, and EWF telling you to let it go is shameful. There is not a place in Scripture that supports EWF's take. Preach it. :thumbs:

BS...he is beating a dead horse and he should know where to expend his energies ....and your outa line Rob.

 

[preacher4truth]

BS

BS? Elaborate Christian.

...he

He who? Steaver? EV6?

is beating a dead horse and he should know where to expend his energies

If it is Steaver you are claiming as beating a dead horse, you're still in deep error. The nonsense ev6 is preaching is heresy. For you to diminish that makes you a partaker in his fallacy. Ev6 is attempting to cause carnal 'christians' to reform, march right, all the way to hell, and you are supporting his efforts.

....and your outa line Rob.

Not even close :thumbs:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

BS? Elaborate Christian.




He who? Steaver? EV6?



If it is Steaver you are claiming as beating a dead horse, you're still in deep error. The nonsense ev6 is preaching is heresy. For you to diminish that makes you a partaker in his fallacy. Ev6 is attempting to cause carnal 'christians' to reform, march right, all the way to hell, and you are supporting his efforts.



Not even close . :thumbs:

This is a thread put in the Other Christian Denomination "Rob Gunn" .....and so EV6 can express his opinion about what he believes, as wrong as you & I & Steaver might believe he is. These two (Steaver & EV6) have been having a pitched battle on this thread & other threads. And they are throwing this particular thread way off its central intent.

Lastly, I dont believe in carnal Christians & I dont support the doctrine of loosing ones salvation. However there are a whole lot of Religious Societies that do believe it & they are entitled to express themselves....particularly in a BAPTIST forum .... see we support Religious Liberties. If you dont agree with that, go become a Presbyterian.

 

[BobRyan]

Lastly, I dont believe in carnal Christians & I dont support the doctrine of loosing ones salvation. However there are a whole lot of Religious Societies that do believe it & they are entitled to express themselves....particularly in a BAPTIST forum .... see we support Religious Liberties. If you dont agree with that, go become a Presbyterian.

I believe it is correct to say that the "Free will baptists" prefer to accept the "Forgiveness revoked" Matt 18 and "fallen from Grace" Gal 5:4 texts "as is" - just as I do.

Some on this forum have said that they do not consider some of their fellow Baptists to be anything other than a cult (Seventh-day Baptists were mentioned as I recall).

I concur with this forum allowing for freedom of religious POV.

I find that same thing over at "Club Adventist". All views welcomed. Rancor not welcomed.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

It has been my experience Bob, that it is the RCC that is the biggest supporters of Cheap Grace & bizarre mystical services (that make zero sense to the person sitting in the pew each week). Mostly its a mixture of piety & allot of 'Sin & repent, sin & repent' that is the Roman Catholics daily operating method.

Certainly you are right that they seem to prefer to "buy their way" into heaven via magic sacrament. But they have a strong sense of guilt and then try to address it with all the magic rituals.

They then view some of the non-RCC cheap-grace competitors as a horrible trashing of the Bible on the subject of sin.

In other words the "Trade-off" in their mind is "either you give up believing that sin is really all that bad for a Christian and then you don't need to be Catholic -- or you stay here with all the right magic sacrament for dealing with the sin problem".

Recall that "a priest retains is POWERS" to "confect the body and blood of Christ" -- even if he is defrocked by the church - those magic powers are retained. That is a very very strong system built on the idea of the sacred clergy vs the profane laity.

Another thing Catholics like (even X-catholics in Protestant churches) is very solemn - holy atmosphere in church as if a great Divine being - ruler of the Universe, Awsome King of Kings, and millennia of secret knowledge is present. When they find that many non-RC churches just have night-club happy-clappy -- they begin to re-think their decision to leave the RCC.

I neighbor of mine is case in point. Both he and his wife left the RCC. They are now attending Andy Stanley's church but he says frankly that his wife would probably go back to the RCC if he should die - because she much prefers the more reverent atmosphere. The sense that you "Go to church to meet God"

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

Steve----why do you continue to insist in fronting a pitched battle with this guy? Look, he is entitled to his opinion & to express it, no matter if you or I might disagree with it.

Well, you are correct, anyone is entitled to express their opinions here, that's what we all do. And we all challenge opinions as well.

I have had many a debates with the anti-osas camp. Most will not go as far as to say works justify a sinner, not even in part, as does E7. BobRyan is careful not to outright say he believes works justify, but avoids answering directly pointed questions as to keep his cover all the while agreeing with E7 and encouraging him on. Most will stick to the "free will" to stop believing doctrine. But E7 goes even a step farther than justification by works, he steps over the line of declaring those who teach/preach OSAS are going to hell. Now I'm not a Baptist, but he makes no attempt to hide the fact that the Baptist OSASers are on his list of hell bound preachers. I would think the "BaptistBoard" would have a problem with one coming here with this rhetoric, but he seems to go unnoticed or ignored.

So yes, the battle has been pitched. By me? Not so sure who done the actual pitching, but whatever his intentions, he has drawn me into it by his comments on OSAS preachers going to hell.

Now I won't declare him unsaved as he does us, but I will fight the good fight of faith once delivered unto the saints, and as long as he remains unrepentant of his hell bound rhetoric for those who disagree with him on OSAS I will remain vigilant!

And I say all this with passion and :love2: for him, and for you, and for Truth! He doesn't anger me at all. I don't mind disagreement on OSAS, it will always be, but very few Christians hold to a doctrine of "preach OSAS my way or your hell bound". And those who do should be thoroughly rebuked.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan is careful not to outright say he believes works justify, but avoids answering directly pointed questions as to keep his cover

Actually I have stated a number of times that the way that a lost sinner is justified is "by grace through faith and that not of works".

But the saved saint is given the command by God to "persevere" Romans 2:4-16.

And vs 13-16 points to a future justification that is based on the same principle as James 2. One where the already saved saint is "seen" to be one of the "Good trees" of Matt 7 -- by their works as James says in James 2 - by their "fruits" as Christ said in Matt 7 by being a "Doer of the law" as Paul said in Romans 2:13.

Saints that persevere - remain saved.

Saints that do not persevere - become "fallen from Grace" - and "severed from Christ" Gal 5:4

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Well, you are correct, anyone is entitled to express their opinions here, that's what we all do. And we all challenge opinions as well.

I have had many a debates with the anti-osas camp. Most will not go as far as to say works justify a sinner, not even in part, as does E7. BobRyan is careful not to outright say he believes works justify, but avoids answering directly pointed questions as to keep his cover all the while agreeing with E7 and encouraging him on. Most will stick to the "free will" to stop believing doctrine. But E7 goes even a step farther than justification by works, he steps over the line of declaring those who teach/preach OSAS are going to hell. Now I'm not a Baptist, but he makes no attempt to hide the fact that the Baptist OSASers are on his list of hell bound preachers. I would think the "BaptistBoard" would have a problem with one coming here with this rhetoric, but he seems to go unnoticed or ignored.

So yes, the battle has been pitched. By me? Not so sure who done the actual pitching, but whatever his intentions, he has drawn me into it by his comments on OSAS preachers going to hell.

Now I won't declare him unsaved as he does us, but I will fight the good fight of faith once delivered unto the saints, and as long as he remains unrepentant of his hell bound rhetoric for those who disagree with him on OSAS I will remain vigilant!

And I say all this with passion and :love2: for him, and for you, and for Truth! He doesn't anger me at all. I don't mind disagreement on OSAS, it will always be, but very few Christians hold to a doctrine of "preach OSAS my way or your hell bound". And those who do should be thoroughly rebuked.

Steve, if he has said that then he has broken the rules of the board and needs to be reported.

 

[preacher4truth]

This is a thread put in the Other Christian Denomination .and so EV6 can express his opinion about what he believes, as wrong as you & I & Steaver might believe he is. These two (Steaver & EV6) have been having a pitched battle on this thread & other threads. And they are throwing this particular thread way off its central intent.

Lastly, I dont believe in carnal Christians & I dont support the doctrine of loosing ones salvation. However there are a whole lot of Religious Societies that do believe it & they are entitled to express themselves....particularly in a BAPTIST forum .... see we support Religious Liberties. If you dont agree with that, go become a Presbyterian.

Ya think? Of course I believe in religious liberty but I'm not going to use that as an excuse to allow heretical teaching to get a free ride. That's how we differ.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Ya think? Of course I believe in religious liberty but I'm not going to use that as an excuse to allow heretical teaching to get a free ride. That's how we differ.

Heretic ...just who is on the list today ? I can name at least 5 that are on my own personal list. Why are they not gone from here? I can venture to guess but I'm not the "powers that be" on the BB. And if there are any infractions like statements of questioning salvation, then just report the guy.

Listen brother, I have been called a heretic for my Hard Shell views but I firmly stand by my belief that Christ is my Lord and Savior, and in that I will stand on till I stand before him. This is what we need to consentrate on, evangelize, and then let the HS take over. So I'm not throwing rocks...I was warned not to by Christ when he stated that if you have no sin....

Stay pure, let us all continue to work on ourselves and pray for enlightenment for both ourselves and our bretheren.

 

[preacher4truth]

Heretic ...just who is on the list today ? I can name at least 5 that are on my own personal list. Why are they not gone from here? I can venture to guess but I'm not the "powers that be" on the BB. And if there are any infractions like statements of questioning salvation, then just report the guy.

I have no problem and couldn't cared less if someone calls my salvation in question, minus the fact that on HERE it is against the rules. If it happens, take time to examine. 2 Cor. 13:5. I believe it was Whitefield's salvation that was called into question, and so he said he needed to examine himself.

Listen brother, I have been called a heretic for my Hard Shell views

I see...

but I firmly stand by my belief that Christ is my Lord and Savior, and in that I will stand on till I stand before him.

Good.

This is what we need to consentrate on, evangelize, and then let the HS take over. So I'm not throwing rocks...I was warned not to by Christ when he stated that if you have no sin....

That's charming EWF, but in fact it is completely erroneous and if we had everyone believing your spiel here we'd have no apologetics whatsoever and no one defending THE faith. The passage you refer to has absolutely NOTHING to do with the subject at hand and you're using it as a proof text, which, in so doing is dismissing many other passages that show you are not on solid ground. You're not rightly handling the Word.

Stay pure, let us all continue to work on ourselves and pray for enlightenment for both ourselves and our bretheren.

I agree with the stay pure part. Pray for what enlightenment? Like yours above, that is an unscriptural position bro? How about we stick to the Word when it isn't liked (in season, out of season -- reprove, rebuke, exhort) (you know, that Scriptural type of enlightenment?) THAT is what is needed, not sentimentalism. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I have no problem and couldn't cared less if someone calls my salvation in question, minus the fact that on HERE it is against the rules. If it happens, take time to examine. 2 Cor. 13:5. I believe it was Whitefield's salvation that was called into question, and so he said he needed to examine himself.



I see...




Good.



That's charming EWF, but in fact it is completely erroneous and if we had everyone believing your spiel here we'd have no apologetics whatsoever and no one defending THE faith. The passage you refer to has absolutely NOTHING to do with the subject at hand and you're using it as a proof text, which, in so doing is dismissing many other passages that show you are not on solid ground. You're not rightly handling the Word.



I agree with the stay pure part. Pray for what enlightenment? Like yours above, that is an unscriptural position bro? How about we stick to the Word when it isn't liked (in season, out of season -- reprove, rebuke, exhort) (you know, that Scriptural type of enlightenment?) THAT is what is needed, not sentimentalism. :smilewinkgrin:

Im not bring sentimental at all, Im as much a hard liner as ever .... however I also do not chase the ones who I consider in error away just because I consider them wrong. I try to use this board as a teaching platform.... one that I learn from as well. Lets take Willis & Amy if they will allow me the license ..... both were once in (I believe anyway) serious error & I and many other others called them on it. You personally were here when we had some 'Knock down & Drag out' arguments. But if you spoke to them both, there was in each of their lives a little angel (perhaps even an Archangel .. ) that spoke to them behind the scenes to rationalize and sort out the questions each had....probably still have. Did we have anything to do with that, probably most certainly by being an apposing front we got there attention, but it took some committed & intellectual & patient hand holding as well. Rob, it is my belief that we dont want to run them off because when we do we loose that 'teachable moment' & thats where we must temper ourselves. And trust me, I'm not by nature a tolerant man..... to me, to be tolerant is to be weak....but Im trying to adjust to a point that I dont scare off a sinner & give them license to hate us forever. Once the hate comes in, you have done the devils work for him. Maybe we all need to take a lesson from the life of Augustine, who by his own admission was a "PERSUADER" of men. God took that very proud & intellectual man & by showing him his sins, inevitably stopped him in his tracks & made him serve the Lords purposes. Aint that just tooo cool!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

SO BACK TO MY ORIGIONAL QUESTION:


Now my primary question centers around, "How do you combat the creep of Easy Believe-ism & Charismatic Mysticism that is literally invading my community?" Is there a way for a lone wolf Baptist to evangelize a crumbled structure?

My brother, P4T suggested that we work to re-evangelize OUR existing churches...... this suggestion introduced a concern Ive been harping on all along.....what if there no longer are "OUR" Churches anymore? What if they (the ORTHODOX type churches that teach correct doctrine) no longer exist, because they have been turned into liberal, easy believe-ism Entertainment Centers? And to compond this problem, no doctrinally sound church is willing to church plant in the area. Now you are confronted with a delema.......one, do you join & participate in the "Apostate Church" or do you concede defeat & drive an hour or more to a doctrinally sound church? That conundrum has irritated me for a long time now & I have been handling it in a number of ways.....IE, partial conducting services in the home, sometimes visiting these churches that I disagree with & at times traveling out of my community to attend services at doctrinally sound churches.
But you know what, nothing satisfies & I will tell you why. I promised God, after much prayer, that I would stay here in the community & try to establish a church, right here where its most needed. Im strong enough in my faith to do that but I really grieve for this community. The harvest is great but the harvesters are too few.

 

[BobRyan]

Reformation and Revival within the church has never been popular - ask the protesting Catholics of the 16th century or the Christian Jews of Pentecost who are then persecuted by Saul. It begins with the individual and it spreads to those willing to be like minded.

Find a book that expresses your view of reformation and revival and see if there are any who will join you in Bible study where the book is used as a lesson guide to bring up the various texts. If you have your own version fine - then use your own idea of a study guide.

What you will probably find is that Christian conservative views are not very popular -- but still there are people that would be willing to sacrifice their preference, tradition, cheap-grace for a well-grounded Bible study. Just not many.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[preacher4truth]

SO BACK TO MY ORIGIONAL QUESTION:


Now my primary question centers around, "How do you combat the creep of Easy Believe-ism & Charismatic Mysticism that is literally invading my community?" Is there a way for a lone wolf Baptist to evangelize a crumbled structure?

This isn't new bro, it's been going on for YEARS. As far as your place in it, pray about it.

My brother, P4T suggested that we work to re-evangelize OUR existing churches...... this suggestion introduced a concern Ive been harping on all along.....what if there no longer are "OUR" Churches anymore? What if they (the ORTHODOX type churches that teach correct doctrine) no longer exist, because they have been turned into liberal, easy believe-ism Entertainment Centers? And to compond this problem, no doctrinally sound church is willing to church plant in the area. Now you are confronted with a delema.......one, do you join & participate in the "Apostate Church" or do you concede defeat & drive an hour or more to a doctrinally sound church? That conundrum has irritated me for a long time now & I have been handling it in a number of ways.....IE, partial conducting services in the home, sometimes visiting these churches that I disagree with & at times traveling out of my community to attend services at doctrinally sound churches.
But you know what, nothing satisfies & I will tell you why. I promised God, after much prayer, that I would stay here in the community & try to establish a church, right here where its most needed. Im strong enough in my faith to do that but I really grieve for this community. The harvest is great but the harvesters are too few.

Oh boy. You've just described what is going on in churches and why I SAID 'we're not done evangelizing Baptists in our OWN CHURCHES' (i.e. not naive to think they are all saved in the first place) and you've shown reason as to why NO PREACHER should stop evangelizing those in his own care.

EWF, we have people come to church NOW that believe that easy-believism is the ticket to heaven. Ever try to convince them that it is unScriptural? Ever try to teach them the Warner Sallman 'Christ at hearts door' pic is unscriptural, and that Christ isn't some anemic deity hoping and waiting for someone to react so He can save them? One other thing you must recall is that God will always have His remnant, and our job is not to turn goats into sheep (which is what EV6 is attempting, and is what I rebuked him for when you unwisely stepped into to protect him and alluded not to cast stones at false teaching/teachers) but our job is to preach and God will save His sheep.

So yes, we are in fact evangelizing Baptists here. What you are describing happens in many churches, it is nothing new, and many are in the trenches NOW fighting it.

But brother, you contradict yourself, in one breath you talk about not combating error (not casting stones as you put it) then in the next post you're all over it suggesting about doing it yourself. I guess what I really see is you don't want others to do it, or you want to rebuke them for doing so with sentimentalism, not Scripture.

Be consistent and either be in the battle, allow exposing error to thrive, or get out of it altogether if you're going to have one foot in and one foot out -- from one post to the next.

 

[steaver]

Actually I have stated a number of times that the way that a lost sinner is justified is "by grace through faith and that not of works".

But the saved saint is given the command by God to "persevere" Romans 2:4-16.

And vs 13-16 points to a future justification that is based on the same principle as James 2. One where the already saved saint is "seen" to be one of the "Good trees" of Matt 7 -- by their works as James says in James 2 - by their "fruits" as Christ said in Matt 7 by being a "Doer of the law" as Paul said in Romans 2:13.

Saints that persevere - remain saved.

Saints that do not persevere - become "fallen from Grace" - and "severed from Christ" Gal 5:4

in Christ,

Bob

Yes, this is exactly as E7 believes, that is, you get justified by grace apart from works once (Born-again), and then you must be justified again through works (preserver). That is a double justification doctrine which is not found in the scriptures. This is why people find you guy's teaching so confusing and non-scriptural. It is the exact same central doctrine of the Mormon church, that is, after ye do all ye can do (works) then grace through faith can justify you for salvation. No difference at all.

Now look at this glaring conundrum found in your doctrine;

Actually I have stated a number of times that the way that a lost sinner is justified is "by grace through faith and that not of works".

Compare this with...

Saints that do not persevere - become "fallen from Grace" - and "severed from Christ" Gal 5:4

And now the full quote from Galatians 5:4 - "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace."

You BobRyan desire the law to justify you AFTER having received justification by GRACE. This verse points it's finger directly at YOU! Having BEGUN in GRACE, ye would be justified by the LAW! Can you not see this!!!!

Gal3:3 - "Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?"

It's asking YOU BobRyan!!!!

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes, this is exactly as E7 believes, that is, you get justified by grace apart from works once (Born-again), and then you must be justified again through works (preserver). That is a double justification doctrine which is not found in the scriptures. This is why people find you guy's teaching so confusing and non-scriptural. It is the exact same central doctrine of the Mormon church, that is, after ye do all ye can do (works) then grace through faith can justify you for salvation. No difference at all.

Now look at this glaring conundrum found in your doctrine;



Compare this with...



And now the full quote from Galatians 5:4 - "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace."

You BobRyan desire the law to justify you AFTER having received justification by GRACE. This verse points it's finger directly at YOU! Having BEGUN in GRACE, ye would be justified by the LAW! Can you not see this!!!!

Gal3:3 - "Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?"

It's asking YOU BobRyan!!!!

Falling from grace is NOT saying someone saved lost it, in the context of galatians, Apsotle paul stating that IF one chooses to live by keeping ALL the law, an not walking in faith and Grace, that means living in bondgae, so falling from living for God in freedom and grace!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Falling from grace is NOT saying someone saved lost it, in the context of Galatians, Apostle Paul stating that IF one chooses to live by keeping ALL the law, an not walking in faith and Grace, that means living in bondage, so falling from living for God in freedom and grace!

Good point Yeshua!:thumbs:

Would you suggest the use of the word "Backsliding" as a substitute for "Falling from Grace"? That would change the entire dynamic.... it would serve to define it as a "Regression" vs a lost value. Is that what your saying?

 

[Yeshua1]

Good point Yeshua!:thumbs:

Would you suggest the use of the word "Backsliding" as a substitute for "Falling from Grace"? That would change the entire dynamic.... it would serve to define it as a "Regression" vs a lost value. Is that what your saying?

No, not even that, as the people Paul addressed were still living for the Lord jesus, were trying to live as believers, BIG problem was that they linked how to live in a right way for God by observing and keeping the law, NOT by relying upon the Grace of God to so such!

their method and motination for living as believers were in the wrong place!

they were christians who tried to still keep ;ivng as under OT Covenant, even though now under a new and better one!

Would be like those who today would say "must not watch tv/movies/listen to just Jesus music, cannot ever do ANYTHING "worldly!"

they meant well to live and act as they ought for Jesus, but were trying to get there by human efforts/works/flesh, not by the Holy Spirit and grace!