Featured How do Arminians KNOW They are the Elect of God?

Those all appear to be qualities you lack here on this very board. Now what?

 

And YOU have this, while anyone who takes a different position than you simply doesnt? You don't have the market cornered on repentance, mourning, joy, love and forgiveness.

 

Calvinists believe they have cornered the market on "true" salvation? They don't even know if they are elect.

Simply Google "how can I know if I am elect?" and you will see dozens of articles where Calvinist/Reformed have written in worried whether they are the elect or not.

https://www.google.com/search?q=how...j7&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8

One picture is worth a thousand lies. :thumbsup:

And "playing church" proves nothing, the tares look just like the wheat.

Don't let their bold front fool you, they are clouds without rain.

Pro 25:14 Whoso boasteth himself of a false gift is like clouds and wind without rain.

 

Calvinists believe they have cornered the market on "true" salvation? They don't even know if they are elect.

Simply Google "how can I know if I am elect?" and you will see dozens of articles where Calvinist/Reformed have written in worried whether they are the elect or not.

https://www.google.com/search?q=how...j7&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8

One picture is worth a thousand lies. :thumbsup:

And "playing church" proves nothing, the tares look just like the wheat.

Don't let their bold front fool you, they are clouds and wind without rain.

Pro 25:14 Whoso boasteth himself of a false gift is like clouds and wind without rain.

 

First, a question "Does a person have to know they are one of the elect before they can be saved?"

I think not. Knowing I (this is a generic I) am one of the elect is a matter of looking back. I know I was saved and that would not have happened unless I was one of the elect

That's my answer what's yours?

 

LOL, Calvinists suddenly convert to Arminianism when you ask them how they know they are elect, they will suddenly claim they "believed" which is exactly how Arminians and non-Cals know they are elect.

The problem is, that if Limited Atonement is true, then believing does not necessarily save you. If Jesus did not personally die for you, your faith will not change this FACT. You may believe you are one of the elect and saved, but you are not.

You could believe a defective parachute is safe and dive out of a plane with it, and you will fall to your death. Your faith does not change fact.

Arminians and non-Cals do not have this problem, because they believe Jesus died for every single person.

Now, if Limited Atonement is true, then there will be many Arminians and non-Cals who now have assurance that will be disappointed at the judgment and go to hell, but the same fact also applies to Calvinists. So no Calvinist can know he is saved.

If Limited Atonement is true, at least Arminians and non-Cals are happy now. That is better than being in torment in this life AND in the next. But many Calvinists are in torment NOW.

If Limited Atonement is true, then the best thing is to eat, drink, and be merry. You have no way to know if you are elect, and you cannot change the facts. You are either elect or not, and nothing can change this.

 

You know very well you are perverting us! We believe that the persons, as well as the means are both chosen by God, as well as the time and circumstances.

Furthermore, gospel conversion in the Biblical sense does not have its emphasis upon VERBAL PROFESSION but upon TRANSFORMING POWER - a new creature. Note how Paul said they could know their election in that the gospel did not come in "word only" but "IN POWER and IN THE HOLY SPIRIT."

The primary difference between Arminians and Calvinists in regard to gospel conversion is the difference of emphasis. Arminnians emphasize VERBAL PROFESSION and base the validity of their salvation primarily upon remembrance of an one time act whereas Calvinist base their assurance as the elect primarily upon a SUPERNATURAL TRANSFORMATION with continuing results without denying an initial verbal profession.

Moreover, the gospel call is not universally unqualified but specific. The gospel call is for only those who are willing, not those who are not, only those who see themselves as burdened and heavy laden with sin, thirsty, hungry not those self-satisfied, self-righteous as Jesus did not come to call the rightous but sinners. Hence, the gospel call is specificed and limited not universally unqualified.

Again, pure distortion of our position! We believe that definite atonement SECURES the effectual application of all true faith and all other is either "dead" or "vain" or "empty" faith. So all of your arguments is falacious as it misrepresents our position completely and entirely. Go learn what we really beleive before making up imaginary views and attributing such nonsense to us.

 

You just don't get it, it doesn't matter what you believe. If Limited Atonement is true and you are not one of the fortunate elect, your faith will not save you.

As I said earlier, you can believe a defective parachute is safe and jump out of an airplane with it, and you will fall to your death. Your faith in that parachute will not change the fact that it is defective.

Likewise, if you are not one of the elect, and if Jesus did not personally die for you, your faith will not save you, your faith is vain. You can believe all day long that you are elect and saved, and you will surely perish and go to hell.

It is exactly as Paul argued in 1 Corinthians 15. if Jesus did not rise from the dead, then our faith is vain. It doesn't matter if we believe our sins are forgiven and we will be saved, if Jesus did not rise from the dead, then our faith is vain and we will die in our sins.

1 Cor 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

You just don't get it, what Calvinists believe is meaningless. If Jesus did not personally die for you (and you have no way to know that in Calvinism), then your faith is vain and you will surely die in your sins.

Your personal viewpoint is meaningless, it is truth and fact that matter. You are not smart enough to get it, but Paul did.

 

Arminians easily know that God most certainly loves THEM along with all mankind, that He died for THEM as well as all mankind, that they have accepted Christ and are born-again, saved saints. But since the consistent Arminian cannot know that he will persevere firm to the end 20 years from today - he cannot know that he will remain saved.

But the 4 and 5 point Calvinist "cannot even know that".

For in their case they may "think they are saved" but will readily admit that if 20 years from now they "fail to persevere" firm to the end - will then they were never really saved to start with - and all that they claim to know today - will then be affirmed even by them - to be false about themselves. They will then claim that their most cherished belief about their being saved today - was in fact false and they did not know it - until 20 years in that future when it is apparent they do not choose to persevere.

in Christ,

Bob

 

You are making an argument against calvinism based upon your Arminian belief system that assumes every man has faith. Calvinism makes definite atonement equal to all who have true faith while all others have vain, empty or dead faith. Calvinism attributes justifying to God obtained through the atonement for only the elect not an attribute commone to every man as assumed by Arminianism. You are making an argument against Calvinism based upon the arminian assumption that all men have faith. Do I have to spell this flawed logical argument out for you in small words?????

 

That is not my argument at all. I am saying that if Jesus did not die for you, then your faith is VAIN. It is the same exact argument Paul used in 1 Corinthians 15, he said that if Christ did not rise from the dead, then your faith is VAIN, and you are still in your sins.

You do not get it, if Christ did not really rise from the dead, believing he did rise from the dead will not change the facts, you will die and go to hell in your sins. Paul is showing that your faith does not determine reality.

You have yet to understand this. It doesn't matter one bit what you believe, what matters is whether Jesus died for you personally.

You may be personally convinced that your faith is real, but if Jesus did not personally die for you, your faith is VAIN and you will certainly go to hell.

This has nothing to do with Calvinism versus Arminianism, if Limited Atonement is true, and Jesus did not die for a particular Arminian, it doesn't matter if that particular Arminian has faith that Jesus died for him, he will die and go to hell.

You just don't get it, but Paul did.

 

Your argument is based upon the armininian assumption that ALL MEN HAVE FAITH or COULD HAVE FAITH and therefore if Christ did not die for ALL MEN then those He did not die would have vain faith or their faith could not save them.

However, the Calvinist view is that NO MAN HAS FAITH but the elect and Christ died for ALL THE ELECT and so all who have faith will be saved.

 

That is false. Calvin himself taught that unregenerate men can have a faith that seems so real so as to completely deceive them. He called this Evanescent Grace.

http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/calvin/bk3ch02.html#eleven.htm

Calvin did not teach that only the elect have faith, in fact he taught that God himself instills a false faith in some reprobates that is so real and convincing that the reprobate is completely deceived and believes himself saved.

You believe you are saved, but according to Calvin you could be completely deceived and a reprobate.

Maybe you should study Calvinism a little more.

 

Ah! You finally woke up to reality! Now you are forced to shift your argument to proving all Calvinists agree with Calvin in everything he taught. Sorry, but even the novice in historical Calvinism recognizes that those called Calvinists then and now were not cookie cutter replicas of everything Calvin believed.

You know this! You have been told many times on this forum by many you call Calvinits that they do not believe all men have faith or even capable of faith and that faith is a gift of grace to the elect obtained through regeneration or the giving of a new believing heart. Yet you intentionally twist and pervert and attempt to pit Calvin against us and concluding we are not true Calvinist if we don't agree with everything Calvin believe. You are just a dishonest person who will say and do anything to defend the point you want to make to be true but has no ounce of truth in it. Try being honest with those who oppose your position for a change!

When a person like you is forced to this kind of argumentation it reveals more about your character than it does your theological ability.

 

Baloney, all Calvinists will tell you a person must persevere, that is the P in TULIP. And that is exactly what Calvin was speaking of, look at the very last sentences in the passage I showed you.

The word "evanescent" means to disappear or fade away. Calvin taught that God instills a temporary faith in some persons that will fade away.

Calvinists teach this same thing;

http://www.monergism.com/directory/link_category/Assurance/Perseverance-of-the-Saints/

All Calvinists teach that a person can have a temporary faith and believe themselves saved, but fall away in the end. I have not twisted or perverted anything, it is not necessary. Calvinism always contradicts itself, because it is false doctrine from beginning to end.

 

Show where I have ever argued that all Calvinists agree with Calvin, you can't do it. I have never seen two Calvinists that perfectly agree on all points of Calvinism.

You claimed that only the elect for whom Christ died (assuming Limited Atonement is true) can believe, Calvinists themselves admit that many persons believe on Jesus, but only temporarily.

Jesus himself said a person can believe for a while.

Luk 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Did Jesus die for these persons? Please answer this question.

 

But "perserverance" does not speak to the issue of the CAUSE or SOURCE of faith only its course! Your argument was and is based upon faith having it SOURCE in all men. My view is that faith originates with God not man and only the elect obtain it by grace not due to their fallen nature which is antithetical to faith (Rom. 8:7-8) which cannot "please God" (Rom. 8:8) whereas faith is essential to please God (Heb. 11:6).

Don't tell me what I believe or don't believe! Don't build some straw man and apply it to all who disagree with your idea of the source of faith! There are all kinds of faith that originate with the lost nature (dead, vain, miracle, etc.) but justifying faith is not a temporary faith nor is it a product of fallen human nature but is the product of a new heart.

Don't confuse vain, dead or miracle faith with justifying faith as they are not the same. Don't attribute vain or dead faith to God as they are completely human in source. Don't attribute justifying faith to fallen man as it is a product of grace not of men (Jn. 6:44; 65).