Limited free will

[Van]

The idea we are free to choose from among available options is consistent with our experience. Scripture tells us God sometimes restricts our options, i.e. hardening the hearts of some such that they will reject the gospel, i.e. Romans 11.

The absence of free will is, however, devastating to all theists since without it you cannot choose to be evil or good, and therefore deserve neither punishment nor salvation.

So the complete absence of free will is irrational and unrestricted free will is unbiblical. Calvinists assert since we are free to choose among various sinful actions, but unable to choose the narrow path that leads to life, it makes sense for God to punish us for the sin we chose. Rational minds object.

 

[BobRyan]

In Romans 9 God hardens Pharaoh's heart - but in Exodus it is said that God hardened his heart and that Pharaoh hardened his heart. The same sun that melts butter hardens clay. Some in Egypt were fully convinced in favor of God and left with the children of Israel when they left - others like the Pharoah were hardened by witnessing the same events.

It is not God arbitrarily choosing against one and for another - it is God working the same and man that chooses for or against God.

"HE came to His own and His Own received Him not" John 1 - and yet all the disciples were Jews, so also the 70, so also the 120 in Acts 1 etc.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Rippon]

Calvinists assert since we are free to choose among various sinful actions, but unable to choose the narrow path that leads to life, it makes sense for God to punish us for the sin we chose. Rational minds object.

Oh,so it's your view that the fault of sin lies upon God! Absurd.

In Romans 9:18 it says:
Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy,and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

Then, in the very next verse it tells us :One of you will say to me:"Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"

Do not blame God for the sin of people. Their sin is their own fault. They are responsible for it. They deserve everlasting punishment. We all do --but some receive mercy though deserving the second death.

 

[Luke2427]

The idea we are free to choose from among available options is consistent with our experience. Scripture tells us God sometimes restricts our options, i.e. hardening the hearts of some such that they will reject the gospel, i.e. Romans 11.



So the complete absence of free will is irrational and unrestricted free will is unbiblical. Calvinists assert since we are free to choose among various sinful actions, but unable to choose the narrow path that leads to life, it makes sense for God to punish us for the sin we chose. Rational minds object.

It is not rational to say that God has to give all of his creatures a chance.

He doesn't have to.

God does what he wants with all of his creatures. And he laughs as little people yell, "It's not FAIR!!! Its not FAIR!!!"

If God answered to those people, which he doesn't, he would say, "I don't care. You are too stupid and small to understand what I am doing and why I am doing it. I don't care what you think because compared to me you can HARDLY think at all. I am God, eternal, infinite, almighty. You are a husk, a worm, a tiny little character I have written into my story. And you're one of the bad guys in the story that the hero dashes to bits. The way you can TELL you are one of the bad guys is because you hate the Story Teller and his complete control over the story. Good guys love the Story Teller and are glad he is the One telling it and nobody else."

There is nothing irrational about a story teller writing characters into his story of all sorts and kinds and doing with them what he pleases.

Nothing irrational at all.

 

[convicted1]

Psalm 14

1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the Lord.

5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.

6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the Lord is his refuge.

7 Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the Lord bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.

Apostle Paul reiterates it here:

Romans 3

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

17 And the way of peace have they not known:

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Now, I know some will quote, "they are together become unprofitable", but that is referring to Adam and Eve, us, their posterity. None of us had the faculties to come to Him w/o first being drawn(I know both sides agree with this, btw). Man's will is bound to his nature. Change the nature, change the will....which only God does.

 

[Van]

Not either or but both

In Romans 9 God hardens Pharaoh's heart - but in Exodus it is said that God hardened his heart and that Pharaoh hardened his heart. The same sun that melts butter hardens clay. Some in Egypt were fully convinced in favor of God and left with the children of Israel when they left - others like the Pharoah were hardened by witnessing the same events.

It is not God arbitrarily choosing against one and for another - it is God working the same and man that chooses for or against God.

"HE came to His own and His Own received Him not" John 1 - and yet all the disciples were Jews, so also the 70, so also the 120 in Acts 1 etc.

in Christ,

Bob

We can harden our own hearts by the practice of sin. And God can harden hearts for His purpose, such as Romans 11.
God can choose a person well on the way of hardening his own heart, and complete the process. Scripture does not rule any of the three out.

 

[Van]

Obfuscation and misdirection

Oh,so it's your view that the fault of sin lies upon God! Absurd.

In Romans 9:18 it says:
Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy,and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

Then, in the very next verse it tells us :One of you will say to me:"Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"

Do not blame God for the sin of people. Their sin is their own fault. They are responsible for it. They deserve everlasting punishment. We all do --but some receive mercy though deserving the second death.

Calvinism says whatsoever comes to pass is predestined to occur. Therefore God is the author of sin. And then the Calvinist claims that is the view of non-Cals, vainly trying to obscure the truth.

Why would God still blame us for our choices after He hardened our heart? My answer is He would not. But prior to that those hardened did make sinful choices, sealing their fate. The hardening, like physical death, simply ends the opportunity to obtain mercy. God, as the potter has the right to harden whoever He pleases.

Why would God do that, cut short the opportunity of some, and endure their hardened behavior? God did so to make known the riches of His glory (see chapter 11), including even us which He called not from Jews only but also from among Gentiles.

Calvinism turns the obvious into a mystery time and time again to pour its man-made doctrine into the text.

Our ability to make choices from among various options can be restricted by God for His purpose, thus the Biblical doctrine is "Limited Free Will."

Romans 9:16 teaches men can will and work to be saved, thus total spiritual inability is once again shown to be mistaken doctrine.

 

[Van]

Obfuscation and Misdirection times two.

It is not rational to say that God has to give all of his creatures a chance.

He doesn't have to.

God does what he wants with all of his creatures. And he laughs as little people yell, "It's not FAIR!!! Its not FAIR!!!"

If God answered to those people, which he doesn't, he would say, "I don't care. You are too stupid and small to understand what I am doing and why I am doing it. I don't care what you think because compared to me you can HARDLY think at all. I am God, eternal, infinite, almighty. You are a husk, a worm, a tiny little character I have written into my story. And you're one of the bad guys in the story that the hero dashes to bits. The way you can TELL you are one of the bad guys is because you hate the Story Teller and his complete control over the story. Good guys love the Story Teller and are glad he is the One telling it and nobody else."

There is nothing irrational about a story teller writing characters into his story of all sorts and kinds and doing with them what he pleases.

Nothing irrational at all.

1) Did the Calvinist present a quote where it was said God must give every person a chance? Nope. Thus a fiction posted as a strawman to confuse and hide the truth.

2) Those that disagree with Calvinist are said to hate the Story-Teller, i.e. God. Thus bashing non-Cals rather than addressing the subject of Limited Free Will.

3) Notice the rewrite of what is irrational. God causing people to sin, then punishing them for the sins He caused. That is irrational. Thus limited free will is the rational view.

 

[BobRyan]

He doesn't have to.

God does what he wants

That much is true.

So what model did GOD pick (not Calvinists)??

He picked the "whosoever WILL" model - as HIS sovereign Choice.

"I STAND at the door and knock if ANYONE hears My voice AND OPENS the door I WILL come in" Rev 3

"God is NOT partial" Rom 2:11

"Come unto ME ALL who are weary and heavy ladened" Matt 11.

"He came to HIS OWN and His OWN received Him not!" John 1.

"O Jerusalem... how I WANTED to spare your children... but YOU would not" Matt 23.

"God is not WILLING for ANY to perish but for ALL to come to repentance" 2Peter 3.

'I will draw ALL unto Me" John 12:32

"God sent His Son to be the atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and NOT for OUR sin only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" 1John 2:2

"God so loved the WORLD" - not just the "FEW" of Matt 7. "Yes" really!

It is not rational to respond to each of the sovereign choices of God above - "no - not really ALL"

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Van]

Apostle Paul reiterates it here:

Now, I know some will quote, "they are together become unprofitable", but that is referring to Adam and Eve, us, their posterity. None of us had the faculties to come to Him w/o first being drawn(I know both sides agree with this, btw). Man's will is bound to his nature. Change the nature, change the will....which only God does.

Again, the truth of scripture eludes many. Just read Psalm 14 folks. God looked down to see if any were making the right choices. None of the wicked fools who say there is no God had. But keep reading to verse 5, those who call on God, who seek God has a refuge. Thus Psalm 14 teaches that some men (not wicked fools) exercise limited free will and seek God as a refuge.

Now lets turn the page to Romans 3:11 where Paul cites this passage for the purpose of demonstrating from scripture we are all under sin. At a minimum, no one seeks God, requires that everyone turns away from God at least some of time, and so at a minimum, we all have fallen short of the glory of God and sinned. We are all under sin. Again, there is no mystery. Just read it folks.

The fact that we all sin some or even most of the time does not require an interpretation that nullifies Psalm 14:5. Many of us can seek God as a refuge, and trust in Christ, because we are sinners in need of a refuge, the propitiationary shield of Christ.

 

[BobRyan]

In Gen 3 God decides to supernaturally place a spirit of war between the fallen humanity and the kingdom of Satan even though mankind would have a fallen depraved nature "naturally". Thus at the very start - God inserts a supernatural element between fallen man and the kingdom of darkness starting in Gen 3.

In John 12:32 "I will draw ALL unto Me" not just the "few" of Matt 7. "All drawn" means that all the choice that was disabled by depravity for choosing salvation - is fully enabled by the supernatural drawing of God - this is true even by Calvinist standards. So they try to downsize "all".

In John 16 the Holy Spirit "Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" not just the "Few" of Matt 7.

In Romans 2:13-16 even the pagans who have no access to scripture at all - can respond to that "drawing of all" and experience the benefits of the New Covenant by the power of the Holy Spirit. "According to my Gospel" vs 16

Yet in Romans 1 - we find that not all will accept the Gospel.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Rippon]

All Scripture Is From The NIV

Why would God still blame us for our choices after He hardened our heart? My answer is He would not.

Your "answer" is dead wrong. People are still blameworthy and deserve Perdition. God is not culpable!

The hardening, like physical death, simply ends the opportunity to obtain mercy. God, as the potter has the right to harden whoever He pleases.

I have no objection to the above.

Why would God do that, cut short the opportunity of some, and endure their hardened behavior? God did so to make known the riches of His glory (see chapter 11),[you mean 9:23 --Rip] including even us which He called not from Jews only but also from among Gentiles.

Romans 9:23,24 : "What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy,whom he prepared in advance for glory --even us, whom he called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?"

Romans 9:16 teaches men can will and work to be saved, thus total spiritual inability is once again shown to be mistaken doctrine.

You turn Scripture on its head. Listen and read closely :"It does not,therefore,depend on human desire or effort,but on God's mercy."

That is Romans 9:16 which completely overturns your error. Verse 17 follows with what the Lord told Pharoah:"I raised you up for this very purpose,that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."

 

[Luke2427]

1) Did the Calvinist present a quote where it was said God must give every person a chance? Nope. Thus a fiction posted as a strawman to confuse and hide the truth.

That is the premise behind your OP.

3) Notice the rewrite of what is irrational. God causing people to sin, then punishing them for the sins He caused. That is irrational. Thus limited free will is the rational view.

It's perfectly rational. It happens everyday. Rational is not the word you are looking for- immoral is the word you want.

Irrational means it cannot happen. Well, it DOES happen every day in this world right before our eyes. It happens in politics, churches, families, etc... every day. Since it does happen, it is not irrational.

You may think it is immoral, but it is wrong to say it is irrational.

Now, why CAN'T God cause people to sin and then punish them for it?

 

[Van]

Irrational Stonewalling

God would not punish people for the actions He caused.

Your "answer" is dead wrong. People are still blameworthy and deserve Perdition. God is not culpable!

Only an irrational mind would say punishing someone else for the sins of another is right.

Romans 9:23,24 : "What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy,whom he prepared in advance for glory --even us, whom he called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?"

You turn Scripture on its head. Listen and read closely :"It does not,therefore,depend on human desire or effort,but on God's mercy."

Calvinism turns scripture on its head. And another obfuscation - no one said salvation depends on human desire.

 

[Van]

That is the premise behind your OP.

You made it up all by yourself to obfuscate and misrepresent and create a strawman.

God causing people to sin, then punishing them for the sins He caused. That is irrational. Thus limited free will is the rational view.

It's perfectly rational. It happens everyday.

Folks, judge for yourself. Did you steal cookies from the cookie jar, then spank your kids for stealing cookies.

Now, why CAN'T God cause people to sin and then punish them for it?

Note the misdirection, why can't, instead of why would He? God does not punish the son for the sins of the Father.

Calvinism presents unbiblical behavior as biblical and irrational behavior as rational. It is mistaken doctrine and the mistakes are obvious.

 

[Luke2427]

Folks, judge for yourself. Did you steal cookies from the cookie jar, then spank your kids for stealing cookies.

I have put the cookies where they can reach them knowing they would steal one and then punished them for it to teach them an important life lesson.

Absolutely.

Note the misdirection, why can't, instead of why would He? God does not punish the son for the sins of the Father.

No, no. You said IRRATIONAL. Irrational means "can't" it does mean "wouldn't"

You are misdirecting.

Calvinism presents unbiblical behavior as biblical and irrational behavior as rational. It is mistaken doctrine and the mistakes are obvious.

HAHAHA! Well, as long as you say so!
HAHAHAHA!

 

[Van]

As stated in the OP, limited free will, as constrained and limited by God, is the biblical view. All the passages that address God hardening hearts demonstrate that He limits the choices of some for His purposes, exercising the right of the potter. At other times, Jesus chose to teach in parables to fulfill scripture and preclude some from understanding the gospel.

When you consider all the evidence for the exercise of limited free will the case is overwhelming. We make plans but God directs our steps.

 

[Van]

No, no. You said IRRATIONAL. Irrational means "can't" it does mean "wouldn't"

Calvinism requires this sort of nonsense. I say punishing people for the action of another is irrational, and Luke misrepresents me as saying "can't instead of wouldn't as irrational. And so it goes, obfuscation, misdirection, strawman argument, anything to obscure the obvious truth, the exercise of limited free will is taught in scripture after scripture.

 

[Luke2427]

Calvinism requires this sort of nonsense. I say punishing people for the action of another is irrational, and Luke misrepresents me as saying "can't instead of wouldn't as irrational.

Irrational means: not governed by or according to reason.

To be unreasonable is to believe things happen that cannot possibly happen.

Your contention in this op is that one cannot cause someone to do evil and then punish them for it because that is irrational.

But since... wait for it... IT DOES HAPPEN... EVERY DAY... it is not IRRATIONAL. It happens. It is not beyond reason to say that it happens when... wait for it... here it is... IT HAPPENS.

IT HAPPENS- therefore it cannot be beyond reason.

Call it immoral if you will but don't pretend it is irrational. It may not be right but it is possible because IT HAPPENS.

 

[Van]

Note the effort to dispute the meaning of words, rather than the topic. More obfuscation, misdirection: Folks that is all they have. Limited Free Will is the Biblical Doctrine. Calvinism is mistaken doctrine and the mistakes are obvious.