Featured Limited free will

In Romans 9 God hardens Pharaoh's heart - but in Exodus it is said that God hardened his heart and that Pharaoh hardened his heart. The same sun that melts butter hardens clay. Some in Egypt were fully convinced in favor of God and left with the children of Israel when they left - others like the Pharoah were hardened by witnessing the same events.

It is not God arbitrarily choosing against one and for another - it is God working the same and man that chooses for or against God.

"HE came to His own and His Own received Him not" John 1 - and yet all the disciples were Jews, so also the 70, so also the 120 in Acts 1 etc.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Oh,so it's your view that the fault of sin lies upon God! Absurd.

In Romans 9:18 it says:
Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy,and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

Then, in the very next verse it tells us :One of you will say to me:"Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"

Do not blame God for the sin of people. Their sin is their own fault. They are responsible for it. They deserve everlasting punishment. We all do --but some receive mercy though deserving the second death.

 

It is not rational to say that God has to give all of his creatures a chance.

He doesn't have to.

God does what he wants with all of his creatures. And he laughs as little people yell, "It's not FAIR!!! Its not FAIR!!!"

If God answered to those people, which he doesn't, he would say, "I don't care. You are too stupid and small to understand what I am doing and why I am doing it. I don't care what you think because compared to me you can HARDLY think at all. I am God, eternal, infinite, almighty. You are a husk, a worm, a tiny little character I have written into my story. And you're one of the bad guys in the story that the hero dashes to bits. The way you can TELL you are one of the bad guys is because you hate the Story Teller and his complete control over the story. Good guys love the Story Teller and are glad he is the One telling it and nobody else."

There is nothing irrational about a story teller writing characters into his story of all sorts and kinds and doing with them what he pleases.

Nothing irrational at all.

 

Apostle Paul reiterates it here:

Now, I know some will quote, "they are together become unprofitable", but that is referring to Adam and Eve, us, their posterity. None of us had the faculties to come to Him w/o first being drawn(I know both sides agree with this, btw). Man's will is bound to his nature. Change the nature, change the will....which only God does.

 

That much is true.

So what model did GOD pick (not Calvinists)??

He picked the "whosoever WILL" model - as HIS sovereign Choice.

"I STAND at the door and knock if ANYONE hears My voice AND OPENS the door I WILL come in" Rev 3

"God is NOT partial" Rom 2:11

"Come unto ME ALL who are weary and heavy ladened" Matt 11.

"He came to HIS OWN and His OWN received Him not!" John 1.

"O Jerusalem... how I WANTED to spare your children... but YOU would not" Matt 23.

"God is not WILLING for ANY to perish but for ALL to come to repentance" 2Peter 3.

'I will draw ALL unto Me" John 12:32

"God sent His Son to be the atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and NOT for OUR sin only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" 1John 2:2

"God so loved the WORLD" - not just the "FEW" of Matt 7. "Yes" really!

It is not rational to respond to each of the sovereign choices of God above - "no - not really ALL"

in Christ,

Bob

 

In Gen 3 God decides to supernaturally place a spirit of war between the fallen humanity and the kingdom of Satan even though mankind would have a fallen depraved nature "naturally". Thus at the very start - God inserts a supernatural element between fallen man and the kingdom of darkness starting in Gen 3.

In John 12:32 "I will draw ALL unto Me" not just the "few" of Matt 7. "All drawn" means that all the choice that was disabled by depravity for choosing salvation - is fully enabled by the supernatural drawing of God - this is true even by Calvinist standards. So they try to downsize "all".

In John 16 the Holy Spirit "Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" not just the "Few" of Matt 7.

In Romans 2:13-16 even the pagans who have no access to scripture at all - can respond to that "drawing of all" and experience the benefits of the New Covenant by the power of the Holy Spirit. "According to my Gospel" vs 16

Yet in Romans 1 - we find that not all will accept the Gospel.

in Christ,

Bob

 

All Scripture Is From The NIV

Your "answer" is dead wrong. People are still blameworthy and deserve Perdition. God is not culpable!

I have no objection to the above.

Romans 9:23,24 : "What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy,whom he prepared in advance for glory --even us, whom he called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?"

You turn Scripture on its head. Listen and read closely :"It does not,therefore,depend on human desire or effort,but on God's mercy."

That is Romans 9:16 which completely overturns your error. Verse 17 follows with what the Lord told Pharoah:"I raised you up for this very purpose,that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."

 

That is the premise behind your OP.

It's perfectly rational. It happens everyday. Rational is not the word you are looking for- immoral is the word you want.

Irrational means it cannot happen. Well, it DOES happen every day in this world right before our eyes. It happens in politics, churches, families, etc... every day. Since it does happen, it is not irrational.

You may think it is immoral, but it is wrong to say it is irrational.

Now, why CAN'T God cause people to sin and then punish them for it?

 

I have put the cookies where they can reach them knowing they would steal one and then punished them for it to teach them an important life lesson.

Absolutely.

No, no. You said IRRATIONAL. Irrational means "can't" it does mean "wouldn't"

You are misdirecting.

HAHAHA! Well, as long as you say so!
HAHAHAHA!

 

Irrational means: not governed by or according to reason.

To be unreasonable is to believe things happen that cannot possibly happen.

Your contention in this op is that one cannot cause someone to do evil and then punish them for it because that is irrational.

But since... wait for it... IT DOES HAPPEN... EVERY DAY... it is not IRRATIONAL. It happens. It is not beyond reason to say that it happens when... wait for it... here it is... IT HAPPENS.

IT HAPPENS- therefore it cannot be beyond reason.

Call it immoral if you will but don't pretend it is irrational. It may not be right but it is possible because IT HAPPENS.