When Did the Church Begin?

[Tom Butler]

Part of our failure to agree may come from confusion between the church and the kingdom. They are not the same.

Here is what Thomas Paul Simmons wrote in his 1935 book A Systematic Study of Bible Doctrine:

The church is an assembly; the kingdom is the domain of the King.

The church as an assembly is necessarily local; the kingdom is universal.

The church is spoken of as that which is to be built; the kingdom is never spoken
of as such.

Jesus said "tell it to the church (Mt 18:17); he never gave any such command
concerning the kingdom.

The church is called a body (Eph 1:22-23); the kingdom is never described as
such.

The church is a democracy under the headship of Christ; the kingdom is a
monarchy.

The church has organic character and is visible and local; the kingdom is neither.

Church membership is subject to democratic action by the body; God puts people
in the kingdom through the new birth, independently of any church action.

We read of the "gospel of the kingdom, but we never read of the "gospel of the
church.

The church (Gk ecclesia) is a functioning, visible entity whose purpose is to carry out the purposes of its head, Christ Jesus

The universal, invisible, imaginary church never functions collectively. It holds no services, observes no ordinances, sends out no missionaries. It has no reason for existence.

If we get this right, it will make it easier to pinpoint when Jesus established his church. That is, while he was still here.

 

[OldRegular]

Tom

i agree with much of what you said regarding the church and the Kingdom of God. I see the church as a visible manifestation of the Kingdom of God.

I also believe Scripture speaks of the church as the total number of the redeemed. I believe this is the Church that Jesus Christ was talking about in Matthew 16:18. He certainly was not restricting His Church to a local body of believers. When Scripture speaks of the Bride of Christ I believe the total number of the redeemed is included. I of course reject the Roman Catholic idea of a universal church meaning them.

I believe that in general the word church is used in two different ways in the New Testament . Most frequently the word is used to refer to a local body of believers, a single congregation. However, on occasion the word is used to refer to the entire number of the elect, all those who will be gathered into one under Jesus Christ [Acts 20:28; Hebrews 12:23; Colossians 1:18, 24,25; Ephesians 1:22, 23; Ephesians 2:19-22; Ephesians 5:23-32].

Following are some thoughts I had about the Church {universal} some years ago while teaching the Book of Revelation:

The Church exists in and through the Lord Jesus Christ and so is a distinctive New Testament reality [New Geneva Bible, page 1864]. However, the Church, as a people of the promised New Covenant [Jeremiah 31:31-33] which was instituted by the Lord Jesus Christ [Matthew 26:28, 1 Corinthians 11:25, Hebrews 8:6-13], who, as the incarnate God, is the promised seed of Abraham [Galatians 3:16] and the promised Messiah [John 4:25,26], is a continuity of spiritual Israel, God’s covenant people of the Old Testament. The predominant teaching of the Church since Pentecost is that God has only one people and that the New Testament Church is the Israel of God, the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy. The Baptist Faith and Message adopted by the Southern Baptist Convention in Atlanta, Georgia on June 14, 2000 writes of the Church in Section VI as follows: The New Testament speaks also of the Church as the Body of Christ which includes all the redeemed of all the ages, believers from every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation.

The 11th chapter of Hebrews tells us that the Old Testament Saints considered themselves strangers and pilgrims on earth and vividly portrays their longing to see that city whose builder and maker is God. That city is the the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, the general assembly and Church of the Firstborn [Hebrews 12:22-24], and.the chaste virgin bride of Jesus Christ [2 Corinthians 11:2].​

I said in an earlier post that the Church started with the redemption of the first sinner. I also believe that in the mind of God the Church existed prior to creation since Scripture indicate that the Book of Life existed prior to creation {Revelation 17:8}.

 

[Revmitchell]

Part of our failure to agree may come from confusion between the church and the kingdom. They are not the same.

Careful now, we want to have a civil discussion. Accusations like this drag that out of sorts. I will tell you what, I will not accuse you of being confused and I expect the same. Are we good?

 

[DHK]

I'm probably missing something here, but isn't it true that all of the 3,000 saved at Pentecost were Jews? And that the first Gentile convert was Cornelius in Acts 10?

This would seem to weaken the case that the Gentiles were grafted in at Pentecost, thus marking the forming of the church.

Further, I don't quite understand why it's necessary for an assembly to have Gentiles in it before it qualifies as a church.

I agree with most of what you say Tom.
The "First Baptist Church" of Jerusalem, had 3,000 "Jewish Christians" added to the 120 that had been praying. Not one of them was a Gentile. Most people consider that the beginning of the "Church Age." Where did the requirement for Gentiles come in.
In Acts 8 the Gospel finally went to Samaria, but they at least were part Jew.
In Acts 10, Cornelius and his family was reached, but apparently he was a proselyte, a devout and God-fearing man who kept the Sabbath and other customs of the Jews.
It was not until Acts 13 that the gospel went to the Gentiles, and by that time there were already other churches besides the one in Jerusalem, such as Antioch in Syria. But the Bible never speaks of "The Church," as you say.

"The Church" cannot exist. It has no function. The word comes from the Greek, ekklesia, meaning "assembly." It is a contradiction in terms to think that a universal assembly can somehow assemble? How is that even possible?
Where does it assemble?
Why does it assemble?
Who preaches?
Who takes up the offering?
Who are the deacons?
How is it organized.
What is this universal church's function and how is it so organized so it can carry it out efficiently.

"ekklesia" means assembly, all the time, and thus must refer to a local assembly or local church. It cannot refer to a universal church; the very definition of the term won't allow it to.

As to when it began is another topic.
Since the disciples assembled with Jesus, baptized others, held the last supper, carried out the Great Commission, and did that which was necessary to fill the requirements of a local church, it could fit the requirements.
The only reason I don't put it there is because I am a dispensationalist and believe that the "Church Age" or better said, "Age of the Churches" began at Pentecost. Otherwise I have no reason to disagree with you. He started his assembly with his disciples and has been working through them, and then the apostle Paul (who started over 100 churches/assemblies) and others ever since.

 

[Tom Butler]

Careful now, we want to have a civil discussion. Accusations like this drag that out of sorts. I will tell you what, I will not accuse you of being confused and I expect the same. Are we good?

Sounds like a good plan.

 

[Tom Butler]

Let me clarify my definitions re: the church, again citing JP Simmons:

There are a couple of occasions in the New Testament where the word church is used in an abstract or generic sense. It is the same way we refer to marriage, home or family.

Jesus spoke in the institutional or generic sense in Matthew 16:18 (....I will build my church...); I Cor 12:28 (...and God has placed in the church first apostles...).

What is spoke of in the institutional sense (church, home, family, etc.) has no real meaning without the concrete expression of the institutional.

Ecclesia is also used in the prospective sense. (Hebrews 12;23...the church of the first-born).

I think we all look forward to joining that great General Assembly in heaven, when we will truly have one church.

 

[OldRegular]

Let me clarify my definitions re: the church, again citing JP Simmons:

There are a couple of occasions in the New Testament where the word church is used in an abstract or generic sense. It is the same way we refer to marriage, home or family.

Jesus spoke in the institutional or generic sense in Matthew 16:18 (....I will build my church...); I Cor 12:28 (...and God has placed in the church first apostles...).

What is spoke of in the institutional sense (church, home, family, etc.) has no real meaning without the concrete expression of the institutional.

Ecclesia is also used in the prospective sense. (Hebrews 12;23...the church of the first-born).

I think we all look forward to joining that great General Assembly in heaven, when we will truly have one church.

B. H. Carroll, I believe founder of the Southwestern Baptist Seminary, author of An Interpretation of the English Bible did not like the the idea of a "universal" Church so he spoke of the "Glory Church", the General Assembly in Heaven..

 

[Tom Butler]

I agree with most of what you say Tom.
The "First Baptist Church" of Jerusalem, had 3,000 "Jewish Christians" added to the 120 that had been praying. Not one of them was a Gentile. Most people consider that the beginning of the "Church Age." Where did the requirement for Gentiles come in.
In Acts 8 the Gospel finally went to Samaria, but they at least were part Jew.
In Acts 10, Cornelius and his family was reached, but apparently he was a proselyte, a devout and God-fearing man who kept the Sabbath and other customs of the Jews.
It was not until Acts 13 that the gospel went to the Gentiles, and by that time there were already other churches besides the one in Jerusalem, such as Antioch in Syria. But the Bible never speaks of "The Church," as you say.

"The Church" cannot exist. It has no function. The word comes from the Greek, ekklesia, meaning "assembly." It is a contradiction in terms to think that a universal assembly can somehow assemble? How is that even possible?
Where does it assemble?
Why does it assemble?
Who preaches?
Who takes up the offering?
Who are the deacons?
How is it organized.
What is this universal church's function and how is it so organized so it can carry it out efficiently.

"ekklesia" means assembly, all the time, and thus must refer to a local assembly or local church. It cannot refer to a universal church; the very definition of the term won't allow it to.

As to when it began is another topic.
Since the disciples assembled with Jesus, baptized others, held the last supper, carried out the Great Commission, and did that which was necessary to fill the requirements of a local church, it could fit the requirements.
The only reason I don't put it there is because I am a dispensationalist and believe that the "Church Age" or better said, "Age of the Churches" began at Pentecost. Otherwise I have no reason to disagree with you. He started his assembly with his disciples and has been working through them, and then the apostle Paul (who started over 100 churches/assemblies) and others ever since.

The bottom line is the definition of ecclesia, which is simply an assembly. It must assemble. And it is self-contained, not a branch or offshoot of a larger entity.

Regarding your view of the beginning, you are consistent with dispensationalism. Since I long ago abandoned that view, we're going to come at this from different perspectives. But I am happy to agree with you where I can, and we do see a lot of things alike.

 

[Tom Butler]

Let me emphasize that I do not consider one's view of the founding (beginning, forming, establishing) of the church as a test of fellowship. It's not that it's unimportant; it is that it's not a deal-breaker.

That's a good thing, i think, particularly since my view is probably a minority position within my own church (uh, assembly). And we get along just fine.

 

[OldRegular]

ekklhsia ekklesia ek-klay-see'-ah; from a compound of 1537 and a derivative of 2564; a calling out, i.e. (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both):-- assembly, church.

Recognizing that "ekklesia" also means "a calling out" certainly expands the Church beyond a local assembly, at least in my mind. At this time or any time in history there is a body of those who have been redeemed though they will never assemble while on earth!

 

[webdog]

The bottom line is the definition of ecclesia, which is simply an assembly. It must assemble. And it is self-contained, not a branch or offshoot of a larger entity.

Regarding your view of the beginning, you are consistent with dispensationalism. Since I long ago abandoned that view, we're going to come at this from different perspectives. But I am happy to agree with you where I can, and we do see a lot of things alike.

Ephesians 2 supports the church universal...

And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

We are 'assembling' with Him as I type this...everyone in Christ (The church). As OR also stated, this is also a special calling out. This is the church.

 

[Tom Butler]

ekklhsia ekklesia ek-klay-see'-ah; from a compound of 1537 and a derivative of 2564; a calling out, i.e. (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both):-- assembly, church.

Recognizing that "ekklesia" also means "a calling out" certainly expands the Church beyond a local assembly, at least in my mind. At this time or any time in history there is a body of those who have been redeemed though they will never assemble while on earth!

I think we can carry it one step further. It is a "calling out" for a purpose. What is that purpose? I think there are more than 100 times we find ecclesia in the New Testament.

I've already alluded to a couple of instances where it is used in an institutional or generic sense, in the same way we speak of marriage, family, etc. Another couple of instances where it is ued in the prospective sense.

In every other instance that I can find, ecclesia refers to an assembly.

So, I think we can conclude that "calling out" for a specific purpose is to assemble. Which is what a church does.

One side note. Southern Baptists are holding assemblies this time of year at the Associational level, the state convention level, and later the national convention level. In no case will you find a reference to those meetings being a meeting of the Kentucky Baptist Church, or the Southrn Baptist Church. Further, in every case, the messengers to those conventions will represent local congregations. No association will send messengers to the state or national conventions. No state convention will send messengers to the SBC. Only local congregations.

Now we can see why we have conventions, not church meetings.

 

[Tom Butler]

Ephesians 2 supports the church universal...

And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

We are 'assembling' with Him as I type this...everyone in Christ (The church). As OR also stated, this is also a special calling out. This is the church.

I'm not a great exegeter, so there may be something there that I don't see. And I don't see what you see. I do think that this could possibly be a refrence to the church in a prospective sense--that is, in the future. Because definitely we are not literally seated with him in the heavenly realms at this moment. So this could also be in an anticipatory sense.

So, I will yield to the Bible scholars for further instruction. But right now, I don't see a universal church in that verse. Could we see this as an accomplished fact in the mind of God? But still a future reality?

 

[OldRegular]

I see calling out as one being called out of the world, in this case the true believer. Since all true believers are the called out ones there is a kinship between all true believers whether they are assembled in this world or not.

Ephesians 2:11-23
11. Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12. That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13. But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15. Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16. And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17. And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20. And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21. In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22. In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

The kinship among true believers that I am talking about is that described by the Apostle in the above passage. I believe the "household of God" in the above passage is more than the local body of believers. It is the total number of redeemed which I believe is the "bride of Christ" the Church Universal. That is one reason I say all the redeemed in the Old Testament are in the "household of God", the Church. Similarly I believe that the Apostle speaking of "an Holy Temple in the Lord and an habitation of God through the Spirit" is referring to the total number of redeemed.

 

[Tom Butler]

There is a sense in which Jesus has guaranteed our salvation by his resurrection, and therefore we are raised up, as well.

And there is also a sense in which we have fellowship with the Lord Jesus now. But to say that this is a reference to the Universal Church in Ephesians 2:6 escapes me.

 

[Tom Butler]

I see calling out as one being called out of the world, in this case the true believer. Since all true believers are the called out ones there is a kinship between all true believers whether they are assembled in this world or not.

Ephesians 2:11-23
11. Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12. That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13. But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15. Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16. And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17. And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20. And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21. In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22. In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

The kinship among true believers that I am talking about is that described by the Apostle in the above passage. I believe the "household of God" in the above passage is more than the local body of believers. It is the total number of redeemed which I believe is the "bride of Christ" the Church Universal. That is one reason I say all the redeemed in the Old Testament are in the "household of God", the Church. Similarly I believe that the Apostle speaking of "an Holy Temple in the Lord and an habitation of God through the Spirit" is referring to the total number of redeemed.

Let's remember that Paul, a Jew, is writing to a Gentile congregation. That places those verses in perspective.

 

[saturneptune]

ekklhsia ekklesia ek-klay-see'-ah; from a compound of 1537 and a derivative of 2564; a calling out, i.e. (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both):-- assembly, church.

Recognizing that "ekklesia" also means "a calling out" certainly expands the Church beyond a local assembly, at least in my mind. At this time or any time in history there is a body of those who have been redeemed though they will never assemble while on earth!

OR,
From reading your posts, I get the idea you are introducing a third position on when the church was founded. Of course, the main two are Pentecost and during the earthly ministry of Christ. You said in a previous post that the church was founded in eternity past with the first elected person. That is a new concept to me, and was wondering if you would expand on the differences between that and the earthly ministry of Christ.

 

[webdog]

I'm not a great exegeter, so there may be something there that I don't see. And I don't see what you see. I do think that this could possibly be a refrence to the church in a prospective sense--that is, in the future. Because definitely we are not literally seated with him in the heavenly realms at this moment. So this could also be in an anticipatory sense.

So, I will yield to the Bible scholars for further instruction. But right now, I don't see a universal church in that verse. Could we see this as an accomplished fact in the mind of God? But still a future reality?

Why do you say we are definitely not seated with Him now when the Bible says just that? Its one of those mysterious tensions we need to accept by faith like the hypostatic union and the Trinity.

 

[kyredneck]

I would also argue that it was not until Pentecost that the Gentiles were grafted in......

And you would be arguing wrong, it's recorded in Acts 2 that only Jews, DEVOUT Jews, from every nation under heaven were added at Pentecost. Christ foretold:

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd. Jn 10:16

Acts 10 records when the time began for these 'other sheep' to be brought in, "Cornelius...a DEVOUT man....that feared God...who gave much alms...and prayed to God always".

 

[OldRegular]

OR,
From reading your posts, I get the idea you are introducing a third position on when the church was founded. Of course, the main two are Pentecost and during the earthly ministry of Christ. You said in a previous post that the church was founded in eternity past with the first elected person. That is a new concept to me, and was wondering if you would expand on the differences between that and the earthly ministry of Christ.

I believe I said that the Church began when the first of the elect was redeemed {Post #29} at least that was what I intended. I have also said that in the mind of God the Church has existed since the foundation of the world since Scripture tells us the names of the elect were in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world {Revelation 17:8} and Jesus Christ was slain from the foundation of the world{Revelation 13:8}. I want to be very clear here though. All the elect of God were at one time children of wrath and are saved in time, not in eternity past. I believe that is consistent with Ephesians 2:2 & 3 below.

Ephesians 2:1-8
1. And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2. Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3. Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6. And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7. That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:


I reject the Roman Catholic concept of a Universal Church since they believe it is visible and they are it!