When Did the Church Begin?

[DHK]

Grace through the faith is what God said God would do from the foundation of the world.

Faith is not what you believe.

Faith is the fulfillment of the belief of God.

This is wrong. Faith is belief; confidence in the promises of God.
Faith always has an object. If the object of your faith is not Christ you cannot be saved.

Muslims have faith. The object of their faith is "Allah."
Ultimately the object of the faith of the RCC is in the Magesterium and in their interpretation of the Bible and Catechism, not in the Bible itself.

We belief in sola fide. Faith is not a fulfillment of anything.
God does not believe for you. IMO that is borderline heresy, but that is my opinion. God does not believe for you. You must believe or you will not be saved. We are not forced robots with no belief of our own.
Except you believe (or have faith) you have no life in you.

 

[Tom Butler]

The gospels are replete with instances of the work of the Holy Spirit prior to Pentecost.

Luke 1:
John the Baptist will be filled with the Spirit from the womb.
His mother Elizabeth was filled with the Spirit
His father Zechariah was filled with the Spirit and prophesied.

Actually, Mary's "Magnificat" (My soul magnifies the Lord) could just as well be attributed to Mary's being Spirit-filled. (Luke1)

The angel told Mary the Holy Spirit would "come upon her." And the power "of the most High" would be upon her.

Mary was "found to be with child through the Holy Spirit..." (Matthew 1).

John the Baptist told his listeners that the One who was coming would baptize them with the Holy Spirit. (Matthew3, Mark 1)

The Holy Spirit was present at Jesus' water baptism. (Matthew 3, Luke 3)

Jesus was led/driven by the Holy Spirit into the desert for His temptation. (Matthew 4, Mark 1, Luke 4)

Jesus said "the Spirit of the Lord is upon me." Luke 4

Jesus warned that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit was an unforgivable sin. (Mark 3) He evidently was speaking to people who understood what he was saying.

Jesus explained to his disciples that the New Birth is a work of the Holy Spirit. (John 3)

Jesus spoke of the work of the Spirit in convicting of sin, righteousness and judgment. (John 16)

Jesus told his disciples to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. (Matthew 28)

There are other references, of course. From these scriptures, it is clear that the Holy Spirit was operating prior to Pentecost. To insist that the the church didn't come into existence until the Spirit came on Pentecost is to ignore these scriptures. Jesus' followers operated in power prior to Pentecost--healing the sick and casting out demons, for instance. They assembled, they preached, they baptized, the took Communion, they evangelized.

 

[percho]

This is wrong. Faith is belief; confidence in the promises of God.
Faith always has an object. If the object of your faith is not Christ you cannot be saved.

Muslims have faith. The object of their faith is "Allah."
Ultimately the object of the faith of the RCC is in the Magesterium and in their interpretation of the Bible and Catechism, not in the Bible itself.

We belief in sola fide. Faith is not a fulfillment of anything.
God does not believe for you. IMO that is borderline heresy, but that is my opinion. God does not believe for you. You must believe or you will not be saved. We are not forced robots with no belief of our own.
Except you believe (or have faith) you have no life in you.

I emboldened part of your statement above. Permit me to ask.


confidence in the promises of God. I totally agree with this statement.

Before the foundation of the world, before Adam was created. It was determined by The God, The Living God.

But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world,
from 1 Peter 1:19,20

Before the creation of the world it was determined someone that could die (shed the life that is in the blood) yet did not deserve to die would die.

What is the concept of shed the life's blood, die, death before the foundation of the world?

In the beginning God. God is. God is to be. Therefore to die, shed life's blood, death is to not be, or to cease to be.

The same God upon determining that Christ would shed his blood, die, cease to have life, cease to be at the time of this determination also made the promise of the hope of eternal life. Life within self, not life that was in the blood but life in self.

The Son of God, Christ, came into the world not with life within himself but in the flesh, born of woman, he came by the water and the blood, subject to death, to die and corruption, yet he was sinless and did not earn the wages of sin, yet gave his life, the only, to be, that was in him by the blood.

Jesus was dead in Hades with only the promise of God. The hope of eternal life.

Who is the only one who has been born of woman who has dies and been given life again? Who Fathered this child who was born of woman? Who only is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen?

Who only has received the promise of God?

We who have been given the Holy Spirit are currently heirs, not yet inheritors of what? Titus 3:7 the hope of eternal life.

What does Paul say about hope. Romans 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Faith came when God the Father raised Jesus his Son Christ as of a lamb, from the dead.

1 Cor 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith vain; ye are yet in your sins.

My God my God why hast thou forsaken me? Father unto your hands I comment my spirit, (my life).

 

[percho]

The church of God.

Someone tell me.

What was the very first stone laid in the building of the church of the living God and exactly when was it laid?

Anyone want to take a shot at this?

What was the corner stone and when was it laid.

Is this the church God is building.

 

[saturneptune]

Anyone want to take a shot at this?

What was the corner stone and when was it laid.

Is this the church God is building.

OK, I will bite. Jesus Christ is the Cornerstone. It was laid in eternity past. Is this the church that God is building? Well, I would hope so.

 

[percho]

OK, I will bite. Jesus Christ is the Cornerstone. It was laid in eternity past. Is this the church that God is building? Well, I would hope so.

Acts 4:11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified,(was set at nought of you builders,) whom God raised from the dead, (which is become the head of the corner.) even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. 4:12
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; Eph 4:20
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. Col 1:18

I would think God begin the building of the church with the resurrected Jesus, the Christ.

 

[DHK]

I emboldened part of your statement above. Permit me to ask.


confidence in the promises of God. I totally agree with this statement.

Before the foundation of the world, before Adam was created. It was determined by The God, The Living God.

Take your argument to the Calvinist forum. I am not a Calvinist and not here to argue the merits of it.
I suppose God determined before the foundation of the earth that I eat this cheeseburger too. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[percho]

Take your argument to the Calvinist forum. I am not a Calvinist and not here to argue the merits of it.
I suppose God determined before the foundation of the earth that I eat this cheeseburger too. :smilewinkgrin:

What does 1 Peter 1:19,20 have to do with Calvinism pro or con?

It elaborates on this verse; Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

From the beginning of the world and or before the foundation of the world it was foreordained for the Christ as of a lamb to shed his blood.

I have not a clue what Calvin ever said about that. But then I haven't read a lot of Calvin.

 

[Tom Butler]

Here's what Wikipedia says about the term "cornerstone."

The cornerstone (or foundation stone) concept is derived from the first stone set in the construction of a masonry foundation, important since all other stones will be set in reference to this stone, thus determining the position of the entire structure.

If we carry this metaphor to its logical end, we must conclude that the cornerstone is part of the original building. Thus, Jesus Christ, the Cornerstone, was the first stone of His church. This leads to the inevitable conclusion that the Cornerstone was part of the church--thus, existed at the same time.

Therefore, the church of which Jesus is the Cornerstone, existed prior to Pentecost, while he, the Head, was still on this earth.

And believers, who are described as "living stones" in I Peter 2:5. Each new believer is another stone added to the building.

 

[percho]

Here's what Wikipedia says about the term "cornerstone."

If we carry this metaphor to its logical end, we must conclude that the cornerstone is part of the original building. Thus, Jesus Christ, the Cornerstone, was the first stone of His church. This leads to the inevitable conclusion that the Cornerstone was part of the church--thus, existed at the same time.

Therefore, the church of which Jesus is the Cornerstone, existed prior to Pentecost, while he, the Head, was still on this earth.

And believers, who are described as "living stones" in I Peter 2:5. Each new believer is another stone added to the building.

I agree Tom. What is it that establishes these new believers as, "living stones" that are added to the cornerstone?

 

[J.D.]

Heehee, it's amazing. I'm gone for a year and a half and when I come back, the same topics are being hashed out as was back then. Oh, and hello everyone. But it's one post and then I'm gone for the night. Might check back tomorrow. Bye!

 

[Tom Butler]

I agree Tom. What is it that establishes these new believers as, "living stones" that are added to the cornerstone?

Good question.

The answer is water baptism.

Repentance and faith place believers in the Kingdom.

Water baptism places us in the assembly, the local church.

Baptism does not place us in to the Universal Church, which doesn't exist.

We are baptized into the body, the assembly.

 

[Yeshua1]

The gospels are replete with instances of the work of the Holy Spirit prior to Pentecost.

Luke 1:
John the Baptist will be filled with the Spirit from the womb.
His mother Elizabeth was filled with the Spirit
His father Zechariah was filled with the Spirit and prophesied.

Actually, Mary's "Magnificat" (My soul magnifies the Lord) could just as well be attributed to Mary's being Spirit-filled. (Luke1)

The angel told Mary the Holy Spirit would "come upon her." And the power "of the most High" would be upon her.

Mary was "found to be with child through the Holy Spirit..." (Matthew 1).

John the Baptist told his listeners that the One who was coming would baptize them with the Holy Spirit. (Matthew3, Mark 1)

The Holy Spirit was present at Jesus' water baptism. (Matthew 3, Luke 3)

Jesus was led/driven by the Holy Spirit into the desert for His temptation. (Matthew 4, Mark 1, Luke 4)

Jesus said "the Spirit of the Lord is upon me." Luke 4

Jesus warned that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit was an unforgivable sin. (Mark 3) He evidently was speaking to people who understood what he was saying.

Jesus explained to his disciples that the New Birth is a work of the Holy Spirit. (John 3)

Jesus spoke of the work of the Spirit in convicting of sin, righteousness and judgment. (John 16)

Jesus told his disciples to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. (Matthew 28)

There are other references, of course. From these scriptures, it is clear that the Holy Spirit was operating prior to Pentecost. To insist that the the church didn't come into existence until the Spirit came on Pentecost is to ignore these scriptures. Jesus' followers operated in power prior to Pentecost--healing the sick and casting out demons, for instance. They assembled, they preached, they baptized, the took Communion, they evangelized.

Not really, it would be more that we see the Holy Spirit still operating under the mandate of the old covenant during this time, and He function same fashion as in OT times, but when Jesus died/ressurected/ascended, THEN we have the new Covenant, Church formally established, and he THEN was into sealing and indwelling all saved persons!

 

[Yeshua1]

Take your argument to the Calvinist forum. I am not a Calvinist and not here to argue the merits of it.
I suppose God determined before the foundation of the earth that I eat this cheeseburger too. :smilewinkgrin:

No, He gave you the free will to decide that, but only as long as its American Cheese!

 

[Yeshua1]

Good question.

The answer is water baptism.

Repentance and faith place believers in the Kingdom.

Water baptism places us in the assembly, the local church.

Baptism does not place us in to the Universal Church, which doesn't exist.

We are baptized into the body, the assembly.

God sees and knows ONLY the Church of the first Born though, the saved of the real church of christ!

Spiritual baptisism puts all saved into that Body!

 

[percho]

Good question.

The answer is water baptism.

Repentance and faith place believers in the Kingdom.

Water baptism places us in the assembly, the local church.

Baptism does not place us in to the Universal Church, which doesn't exist.

We are baptized into the body, the assembly.

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. Acts 2:38,41

Is it not by being given the gift of the Spirit they are added taking under consideration the following?

for also in one Spirit we all to one body were baptized, whether Jews or Greeks, whether servants or freemen, and all into one Spirit were made to drink, 1 Cor 12:13 YLT

I guess I am asking is the indwelling of the Spirit necessary in order to be a part of the church being built?

 

[kyredneck]

Heehee, it's amazing. I'm gone for a year and a half and when I come back, the same topics are being hashed out as was back then. Oh, and hello everyone. But it's one post and then I'm gone for the night. Might check back tomorrow. Bye!

Hello J.D.! Long time no see. It's good to read this 'one post', come back around and see us again when you got more time!

 

[DHK]

Good question.

The answer is water baptism.

Repentance and faith place believers in the Kingdom.

Water baptism places us in the assembly, the local church.

Baptism does not place us in to the Universal Church, which doesn't exist.

We are baptized into the body, the assembly.

Whose baptism Tom?
We know that Christ and the disciples baptized earlier on near Aenon, but have no record of any names. "Christian" baptism seems to have come at Pentecost. The first record of the Apostles re-baptizing those that already had received John's baptism is in Acts 19 where Paul baptized 12 Jews. Was the baptism of John accepted as a valid baptism as entrance into the body, the assembly?

 

[percho]

Whose baptism Tom?
We know that Christ and the disciples baptized earlier on near Aenon, but have no record of any names. "Christian" baptism seems to have come at Pentecost. The first record of the Apostles re-baptizing those that already had received John's baptism is in Acts 19 where Paul baptized 12 Jews. Was the baptism of John accepted as a valid baptism as entrance into the body, the assembly?

I think it is the Spirit rather than the baptism of water that joins them to the body. I think you can see that in Acts 19. Also in Acts 10:45-47

Those of chapter 19 had never heard of the Holy Spirit. Were baptized in the name of Jesus. See here what Jesus had to say concerning the Spirit and his name.

and the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, John 14:26 YLT

I contend Jesus was the first living stone laid in the building of the church of God being made alive from the dead by receiving the promise of the Holy Spirit from the Father. 1 Peter 3:18 YLT because also Christ once for sin did suffer -- righteous for unrighteous -- that he might lead us to God, having been put to death indeed, in the flesh, and having been made alive in the spirit, (and) Acts 2:32,33 “This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. “Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, NKJV

Jesus had said in John 16:7 that if he did not go away the Comforter would not come.

The Spirit of God would not have been shed on anyone had not Jesus been obedient unto death. Jesus would not have received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit and therefore it would not have been sent in his name.

The Spirit of God could not be given until the dead Jesus was made alive in the Spirit by receiving the promise of the Holy Spirit from the Father.

and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. It is poured out because Jesus has received it and the Spirit puts those poured out upon in the body of Christ as living stones.

Titus 3:6 speaks of this same pouring out and there also it follows the renewing of the Holy Spirit.

It is that Spirit dwelling in us that at the coming of the Lord will quicken our mortal bodies Rom 8:11
It is the body, the temple of the Holy Spirit that must be born again, incorruptible, to see, enter or inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[DHK]

I think it is the Spirit rather than the baptism of water that joins them to the body. I think you can see that in Acts 19. Also in Acts 10:45-47

I think you have misunderstood or have strayed off topic. IMO, the Spirit has not much to with it. The topic is: When did the church begin, and if you consider Tom's OP he is considering the word "church" more in a local sense.

Historically every denomination, both Catholic and Protestant have used water baptism as the door to the local church. When we baptize a person they become a member of our church. We wouldn't baptize them otherwise. It is a door to the church. It is a door to "our local church body or assembly. It is not the Spirit but water baptism. The only people we would baptize are those that are born again, willing to be baptized and in agreement with us in doctrine.

The word "church" is ekkesia, or assembly. That is all the word means--assembly.

Tom puts forth the idea, what is to prevent Christ and the Twelve from being called "the first assembly" of believers, or church. There is no specific doctrine that mandates the "coming of the Spirit." Here is an "assembly" of believers, Christ the chief cornerstone, and the apostles the foundation, with Christ saying "Upon this Rock (presumably Peter's testimony or Himself), I will build my church or assembly). There is no emphasis on the Spirit and doesn't have to be. Who makes that a requirement and why? It isn't in the definition of a local church, not any of the definitions that I have read.
Here is one of them:

A church is an assembly of baptized (immersed) believers who have voluntarily associated themselves together for the purpose of carrying out the two ordinances (Lord's Supper and baptism by immersion), and for obeying the Great Commission of our Lord.

That is what our church does.
As Tom pointed out, Jesus and his disciples did the same before the cross.