Featured Giving by the Father - Jn. 6:37-65

My opinions? I have provided scripture in nearly every post I have responded to you.

You can read, does God call out to men and stretch his hand out to them in an attempt to teach them but they refuse to listen and learn?

Answer that question. Let's see who is honest and who is not.

 

That satisfies the determinist definition for genuine freedom, but....it's not going to work for anyone who believes in L.F.W. Or, "contra-causal". That would be the crux of the debate.
To a non-determinist, a "free" will requires the capacity and ability to decide between more than 1 available option. It HAS no cause. It satisfies a determinist to define a will as free as long as their is no external compulsion.....If internal compulsion?...so be it.

For someone who believes in Libertarian volition, compulsion is compulsion regardless of whether it is internal or external, unfortunately. There MUST be the capacity to "do otherwise". Which is why some like the term "contra-causal" (there is no "cause"). A believer in L.F.W. considers your definition to be more like rote animal instinct.....not "volition". Unfortunately, conversation has to begin with settling which definition of "volition" is adequate. *sigh*

 

The gospel is for EVERYONE.

Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

This warning is non-sensical in the Calvinist view. The elect will irresistibly believe, so no warning is necessary, the non-elect cannot possibly believe so any warning is useless.

It is scripture like this that should easily show you Calvinism is error. Much of the scriptures do not make any sense if Calvinism is true.

The same exact gospel is preached to all men. The difference is that the gospel only profits those that believe.

Calvinism teaches the opposite of scripture, Calvinism teaches that God's word effectually works to cause a person to believe, while the scriptures teach that God's word only effectually works in those that believe. Those are direct opposites.

1 The 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

It is not that the same powerful gospel is not preached to all men, it is. The difference is that some do not believe. God's word only effectually works in those that believe.

You teach the exact opposite of what scripture truly says.

 

2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2Pe 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
According to Calvinism...2 Peter 2:1-3 is false, since anyone who Christ "bought" will invariably and inevitably be saved. And, apparently....Peter was mistaken when he said Jesus has "bought" people who will ultimately be damned.

 

Yes, but never fear, James White himself argues this away.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hdFUKA68Po

Once again, a Calvinist must try to convince people that scripture does not say what it naturally appears to say.

You would think that Calvinists themselves would become suspicious of their doctrine when scripture must CONSTANTLY be explained away, and words must be redefined from their normal and natural sense to make Calvinism work.

Calvinists pride themselves on how intelligent they are, but I believe you have to be incredibly naive to believe Calvinism.

 

WOW!!!! Just....WOW!!! :BangHead:

Actually he only re-defined two words, however....he used another tactic I have noticed instead:

Ignore 2 Peter, and look at Hebrews instead....

Translation:
step 1.) Forget that text, and look at "Justification" as taught by Calvinists in a completely different book presumptively by a completely different writer of Scripture altogether....

step 2.) Assume the correctness of our teaching of a completely different passage

step 3.) super-impose our version of that passage ONTO the passage you cite!

See how it all works!!
Keep your eye out for that:
spend 50% of your effort "exegeting" the passage he wants you to exegete and ignore the man behind that curtain

spend 40% of your time re-defining the key words...

spend 10% of your time insulting the intelligence of anyone who disagrees with you.

It's like a politician who never answers the question you ask, but rather the question he wants you to ask:


Naïve young future Calvinist: "Hey Dr. White, doesn't 2 Peter 2 refute Calvinism?"
Dr. White: "Not at all....if you look at Hebrews 7-9......blah blah blah...."
Naïve young future Calvinist: "Ahhh, I see, thank you sir!"
Dr. White: "Remember, all non-Calvinists are Charles Finney, and they are also stupid............and they insist on "being in control" instead of loving God's Sovereignty."
Naïve young future Calvinist: "Will do!"

 

Translation: I no longer wish to hear and learn. It matters not what Scripture declares. I have made an immutable decision according to my unchangeable free will. Nothing and no one can make me believe otherwise. Therefore, this debate was, is and will always be circular.

Translation: How the first cause and all subsequent second causes concur to actually make something infallibly come to pass is of little importance. What is important is the end result. Whatever the result, whether belief or unbelief, Heaven or Hell, God is merely a bystander, a note-taker, not actively involved nor the primary cause in determining the outcome.

Translation: Salvation is determined by the pagan god ‘chance’, otherwise known as ‘lady luck’ and ‘fate’. Salvation is not grounded in the sovereign saving grace of God purposefully given in Christ to the Elect according to His good pleasure.

Translation: Jesus did not die with the purpose of infallibly atoning for the sins of specific persons given Him by the Father according to the Father’s infallible eternal will. Instead of being sent here on a mission whereby He would actually purchase salvation and all gifts necessary to guarantee salvation of those men given Him by the Father before the foundation of the world, Christ came hopeful, trying His utmost to reach men through His moral teaching, as well as His unselfish example of martyrdom.

Translation: Although I have been teaching the doctrine of ‘eternal security’ on this board, I will now, by the power of my free will, contradict that teaching by stating unequivocally that men can leave Christ, though they may have at one time been in the safe harbor of His ‘boat’....proving Jesus to be an incompetent fisher of men.

Translation: How many times must I tell you ignorant Calvinists that the ultimate cause of men’s salvation is the good use of their free will??

To free will be the power and the glory! Amen.

 

Dear Disciple of Catholic Apologist Peter Kreeft:

It was the Papal Godfather who made an offer to the 'heretics' that they worship his wafer-god for the safe-keeping of their lives.

But the innumerable 'heretics' refused; who overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony, and they loved not their lives unto the death.

 

Dude...the "Protestant and I.J. call each other Catholics" thingy...was like soooo totally....like.... "Yesssterdaaaayy".....like....Omigawwwwd....

That's not even in vogue now. Keep up with the new styles man!

This game was played like 36+ hours ago.

 

No, I am quite able to both hear and learn, but I have already studied the word foreknowledge. I also know how Calvinism must redefine this particular word because it refutes your doctrine.

Now, Acts 2:23 is a great example of what I am saying. In no way is foreknowledge being used to describe a personal relationship. It is saying that God foreknew EVENTS that would take place. Even Albert Barnes a Calvinist himself admits this;

As you see, foreknowledge (at least in Acts 2:23) has nothing to do with foreknowing someone in a personal intimate way as Calvinism constantly tries to redefine this word. Barnes agrees with my definition.

No, God is not a bystander at all. It is like a chess game, God is playing his side. God foreknows what moves his opponent will make and so is in complete control, just as if you would be if you knew what your opponent was going to do. Nevertheless, your opponent is making his own moves within the options available to him.

Perhaps chance was a poor choice of words, I should have said "opportunity".

You do not seem to understand that it was God who devised how man is saved. It was God who determined that those men who make a free choice to believe will be saved, and those who do not believe will be damned.

Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

These are the words of Jesus, those who believe will be saved, those that do not believe shall be saved. You seem to have a huge problem with the system of salvation God has devised. Take it up with him.

Jesus died for all men, but the gospel only profits those that believe.

I have written in the past, I could buy a Super Bowl ticket for every member here at BB and post a thread that if any person here will send me their address, I will mail them a free ticket.

Those that believe me and write me get a free ticket. Those who do not believe me and do not write me will not get a free ticket.

Does that negate that I actually bought a ticket for each person here? NO.

No, the moment a person accepts Christ they are born of "incorruptible seed" by the Holy Spirit. They cannot fall away in unbelief because the Holy Spirit remains in them and they cannot sin (1 John 3:9).

No, no man can come to Jesus unless he is drawn (Jhn 6:44). It is the love of Jesus Christ who died on the cross to save us from our sins that draws a man to Jesus. This is why Jesus said if he be lifted up he will draw all men to him (Jhn 12:32).

Jhn 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

That said, scripture is clear that not everyone who is called or drawn shall come.

Mat 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

Look, it's OK to disagree with me, but don't misrepresent me.

 

You’re funny, you claim fault to my premise and replace my argument with your argument on a new premise that “Instead, God provides a new INTERNAL FORCE (new heart) that operates the will.”

You attempt to fly right the meaning of free will to be “volition” by redefining free will into that God implants an internal force while you deny free will is anything more than the expression and intellect of the force that God has put within the individual.

As IF God replacing one’s heart before they can chose so that they only chose through that replaced heart as determined to choose somehow magically gives man the volition to choose and defeats my logic! Sorry, but my valid argument is not faulted by your replacing it with a premise that first God replaces their heart then forces their choice…too funny! They “freely choose through a governing force” :laugh:

Oh, maybe if we begin on a rabbit chase on the authority that the Greek supports your definition of the human will concerning your argument switch and that will change my logic, eh? :laugh:

Hey! After that you can begin on a fallacious smokescreen of a scriptural proof-texting adventure to supposedly demonstrate that God replaces the heart to forcefully determine the outcome of the individual’ choice as if that defeats my logic. :laugh:

I know I shouldn’t give your smokescreen fallacy any attention as it will only give you more cause to effectively continue in it while avoiding the direct claims of my argument, but even though we’ve been through this circular road before I can’t resist to demonstrate once more the clear truth concerning the true promise of the Gospel to every creature, the heart and human responsibility:

(Rom 10:9) If you declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Note: “You” is used 4 times in this verse. You Determinists will be surprised by how much "you" there is in a book that supposedly says that we do nothing.


You have to have a serious set of blinders on to miss that genuine faith must come from one’s own heart; this requires the ability to respond from their own heart, volition, and volition and determinism are logically mutually exclusive any way you might wish to philosophically splice your system together my friend. Proof-text till the cows come home but your flawed philosophical doctrinal designs will never defeat clear logical reasoning to draw out the truth in the scriptures, for God reveals His way in Truth!

You can't replace the premises to prove an argument doesn't logically hold. :laugh:

 

Re: Dr. Albert Barnes

I am elated you were wise enough to seek the counsel of Albert Barnes.

Let us read word for word – not conveniently edited as you have presented his writing to us – what Albert Barnes has to say concerning the foreknowledge and salvation of specific persons chosen by God.

In the online publication of Romans 8:28-29 you will hear Dr. Barnes:

A) Differentiate between external and internal call (which you repudiate).

B) Declare the eternal purpose of God to save those He chose without any consideration of their willful consent (which you repudiate).

C) Define ‘Foreknow’ as referring to people (not just events) whom He purposed to save. They are the object of His foreknowledge, upon whom His eyes are fixed. The event of their salvation is certain and fixed.

D) Declare men are predestined unto salvation according to the purpose of His will, not man’s will (which you repudiate).

Verse 28

And we know - This verse introduces another source of consolation and support, drawn from the fact that all flyings are under the direction of an infinitely wise Being, who has purposed the salvation of the Christian, and who has so appointed all things that they shall contribute to it.

All things - All our afflictions and trials; all the persecutions and calamities to which we are exposed. Though they are numerous and long-continued yet they are among the means that are appointed for our welfare.

Work together for good - They shall cooperate; they shall mutually contribute to our good. They take off our affections from this world; they teach us the truth about our frail, transitory, and lying condition; they lead us to look to God for support, and to heaven for a final home; and they produce a subdued spirit. a humble temper, a patient, tender, and kind disposition. This has been the experience of all saints; and at the end of life they have been able to say it was good for them to be afflicted; Psalm 119:67Psalm 119:71; Jeremiah 31:18-19; Hebrews 12:11.

For good - For our real welfare; for the promotion of true piety, peace, and happiness in our hearts.

To them that love God - This is a characteristic of true piety. To them, afflictions are a blessing. To others, they often prove otherwise. On others they are sent as chastisements; and they produce complaining, instead of peace; rebellion, instead of submission; and anger, impatience, and hatred, instead of calmness, patience, and love. The Christian is made a better man by receiving afflictions as they should be received, and by desiring that they should accomplish the purpose for which they are sent; the sinner is made more hardened by resisting them, and refusing to submit to their obvious intention and design.

To them who are the called - Christians are often represented as called of God. The word κλητόςklētosis sometimes used to denote an external invitation, offer, or calling; Matthew 20:16; Matthew 22:14. But excepting in these places, it is used in the New Testament to denote those who had accepted the call, and were true Christians; Romans 1:6-7; 1 Corinthians 1:2, 1 Corinthians 1:24; Revelation 17:14. It is evidently used in this sense here - to denote those who were true Christians. The connection as well as the usual meaning of the word, requires us thus to understand it. Christians are said to be called because God has invited them to be saved, and has sent into their heart such an influence as to make the call effectual to their salvation. In this way their salvation is to be traced entirely to God.

According to his purpose - The word here rendered “purpose” πρόθεσις prothesismeans properly a proposition, or a laying down anything in view of others; and is thus applied to the bread that was laid on the table of show-bread; Matthew 12:4; Mark 2:26; Luke 6:4. Hence, it means, when applied to the mind, a plan or purpose of mind. It implies that God had a plan, purpose, or intention, in regard to all who became Christians. They are not saved by chance or hap-hazard. God does not convert people without design; and his designs are not new, but are eternal. What he does. he always meant to do. What it is right for him to do, it was right always to intend to do. What God always meant to do, is his purpose or plan. That he has such a purpose in regard to the salvation of his people, is often affirmed; Romans 9:11;Ephesians 1:11; Ephesians 3:11; 2 Timothy 1:9; Jeremiah 51:29.

This purpose of saving his people is,

(1)One over which a creature can have no control; it is according to the counsel of his own will; Ephesians 1:11.

(2)it is without any merit on the part of the sinner - a purpose to save him by grace; 2 Timothy 1:9. [i.e., not based on foreseen faith]

(3)it is eternal; Ephesians 3:11.

(4)it is such as should excite lively gratitude in all who have been inclined by the grace of God to accept the offers of eternal life. They owe it to the mere mercy of God, and they should acknowledge him as the fountain and source of all their hopes of heaven.

Verse 29

For whom he did foreknow - The word used here προέγνω proegnōhas been the subject of almost endless disputes in regard to its meaning in this place. The literal meaning of the word cannot be a matter of dispute. It denotes properly to “know beforehand;” to be acquainted with future events. But whether it means here simply to know that certain persons would become Christians; or to ordain, and constitute them to be Christians, and to be saved, has been a subject of almost endless discussion.

Without entering at large into an investigation of the word, perhaps the following remarks may throw light on it.

(1) it does not here have reference to all the human family; for all are not, and have not, been conformed to the image of his Son. It has reference therefore only to those who would become Christians, and be saved.

(2) it implies “certain knowledge.” It was certainly foreseen, in some way, that they would believe, and be saved. There is nothing, therefore, in regard to them that is contingent, or subject to doubt in the divine Mind, since it was certainly foreknown.

(3) the event which was thus foreknown must have been, for some cause, certain and fixed; since an uncertain event could not be possibly foreknown. To talk of a foreknowing a contingent event, that is, of foreknowing an event as certain which may or may not exist, is an absurdity.

(4) in what way such an event became certain is not determined by the use of this word. But it must have been somehow in connection with a divine appointment or arrangement, since in no other way can it be conceived to be certain. While the word used here, therefore, does not of necessity mean to decree, yet its use supposes that there was a purpose or plan; and the phrase is an explanation of what the apostle had just said, that it was “according to the purpose of God” that they were called. This passage does not affirm why, or how, or, “on what grounds” God foreknew that some of the human family would be saved. It simply affirms the fact; and the mode in which those who will believe were designated, must be determined from other sources. This passage simply teaches that he knew them; that his eye was fixed on them; that he regarded them as to be conformed to his Son; and that, thus knowing them, he designated them to eternal life. The Syriac renders it in accordance with this interpretation: “And from the beginning he knew them, and sealed them with the image of his Son,” etc. As, however, none would believe but by the influences of his Spirit, it follows that they were not foreknown on account of any faith which they would themselves exercise, or any goodworks which they would themselves perform, but according to the purpose or plan of God himself.

He also did predestinate - See the meaning of the original of this word explained in the notes atRomans 1:4; see also the Acts 4:28 note; and 1 Corinthians 2:7 note. In these places the word evidently means to determine, purpose, or decree beforehand; and it must have this meaning here. No other idea could be consistent with the proper meaning of the word, or be intelligible. It is clear also that it does not refer to external privileges, but to real conversion and piety; since that to which they were predestinated was not the external privilege of the gospel, but conformity to his Son, and salvation; see Romans 8:30. No passage could possibly teach in stronger language that it was God‘s purpose to save those who will be saved. Ephesians 1:5, “having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ unto himself.” Ephesians 1:11, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.”

 

Dear Disciple of Catholic Apologist Peter Kreeft:

On the one hand you portray yourself a Logician of the highest order, an expert Researcher and Church Historian, as well as a Free Will Apologist who would make Erasmus envious.

On the other hand, in the above post you reveal yourself as a laughing, foolish pubescent schoolgirl who is more interested in ‘Valley talk’ than commiserating the murders of millions of true believers by the eternal enemy of Christ and His Seed; i.e., the Seed of the Serpent, the Antichrist and his false church.

I dare say not even Winman would be so cavalier.

“And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.”