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Featured Giving by the Father - Jn. 6:37-65

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by The Biblicist, Nov 3, 2013.

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  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    #181 The Biblicist, Nov 10, 2013
  2. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    No, my position does not deny that. What you are failing to distinguish is desire versus capacity. My position simply states that God by a creative act provides a new inner inclination that delights in the Law of God (Rom. 7:21; Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10) and thus provides new desires without denying capacity as sinful capacity is still retained in the fallen nature (Rom. 7:14-25). Hence, it is not an issue of capacity but of ruling desire.

    If you think this is my first rodeo you are sadly mistaken. I have been in the ministry over 40 years, Bible college, Seminary and am well over 60 and retired.

    You should not make charges that you are completely ignorant about. I have never read Augustine, except excerpts and none dealing with this issue. I have read about 10 pages of Luther's book "Bondage of the will." My statements come from intense studies of the Scriptures alone. I pointed out two specific Greek terms translated will that you seem completley ignorant of. I suggest you take the time and consult a good Greek Lexicon and check those words out and then you can come and apologize for insinuating I am in error in providing those definitions - don't talk until you can do the walk and verify what you are saying.

    This kind of ridicule reveals more about your true character than any opponent you are attacking personally. I certainly have not attacked your name, handle or person or ridiculed your person.




    Your ridicule, your assertions advertise your complete ignorance in this matter. Go get a good Greek Lexicon and Bible concordance and do the work before you advertise your ignorance. What I said about these words are indisputable facts that any good Greek word study will demonstrate. Try looking at the basic roots of these two terms and that will expose your ridicule to be based upon pure ignorance.

    You resort to ridicule and persoanl attack throughout this post as your chosen form of debate. That is not a good commentary on your intelligence is it?
     
    #182 The Biblicist, Nov 10, 2013
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  3. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    #183 Winman, Nov 10, 2013
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  4. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    #184 Iconoclast, Nov 10, 2013
  5. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Ouch....:wavey:
     
    #185 Iconoclast, Nov 10, 2013
  6. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    :applause::applause::thumbs::wavey:
     
    #186 Iconoclast, Nov 10, 2013
  7. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    The Biblicist


    Yes...that is exatlcy what has taken place...

    I am not willing to debate someone who is irrational and has so much bias they will say anything, anything to defend their bias. If you had any objectivity and honesty in dealing with passages I would more than accomodate you. I can say that skandelon for the most part tries to be objective and our discussions are substantive more than any other opponent to the truth.[/QUOTE]

    :thumbs: this is so true:wavey:
     
    #187 Iconoclast, Nov 10, 2013
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    hence statements like the ones we find in Rev 3 by the same author that is writing in John 6 - also quoting the teaching of Christ.

    "I STAND and the door and knock - if ANYONE HEARS my voice AND OPENS the door I WILL come in". Rev 3.

    "He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #188 BobRyan, Nov 10, 2013
  9. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    #189 The Biblicist, Nov 10, 2013
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  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Indeed.

    Romans 2:11 "There is no partiality with God".

    John 12:32 "I will DRAW ALL unto Me".

    2Peter 3 "God is not WILLING that any should perish but that ALL should come to repentance".

    "He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him Not" John 1


    Arminians claim "God draws ALL" in "yes really all!" fashion.

    Calvinists "need" to limit that "drawing of ALL" because even Calvinists will admit that the DRAWING of God ENABLEs the power of choice that depravity disables.

    We do not differ so much when it comes to the claim that those who ARE DRAWN are ENABLED to make that choice to come to God. Where we differ is in the somewhat fictional "Behold I bust down the door and resurrect the person on the inside - causing them to be My friend ... but other doors I simply ignore". The Arminian model is more along the lines of "behold I STAND at the door and knock. If anyone HEARS my voice AND OPENS the door I will come in" Rev 3

    Agreed.

    "He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him Not" John 1

    John 1 does not say "He came to His own insufficiently and so because he failed to fully reach out to his own - well his own had no other choice but to receive him not".

    I think we all see that.

    This is why I keep bringing it up.

    I also agree that some views held by Catholics are correct.

    Just as I affirm the "believer's baptism" teaching of Baptists and yet not all of the baptist doctrines - so also - I agree that the Catholic idea that you must choose salvation is valid -- the extent that they actually believe it. When they engage in infant baptism I am not sure they are adopting the free will model as fully as would the non-Catholic Arminian - but that has to do with their teaching on "original sin" which I do not hold to.


    I will agree with you that comments added to the Bible have been used to teach a number of doctrines - some correct and others in error.

    But if your argument is that all Protestants were Calvinists - I am not at all aware that this is historically accurate.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #190 BobRyan, Nov 10, 2013
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  11. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    May I ask you if you believe you need to be honest with scripture? I ask that because you keep repeating Rev 3:14 and jerking it completely out of context and it seems it does not bother you to be so dishonest with God's Word.

    I will prove my point if you kindly answer the following questions:

    1. Who is the contextual subject being addressed by Christ with these words?

    2. Is the Spirit speaking to the churches or the lost world?

    3. Contextually is this a church problem or just an individual being addressed? Is he using a singular "you" or "he" or a plural "you" when describing who has shut him out?

    4. If you answer Christ is addressing "individuals" rather than the church are these church members or people in the world?

    Can you be honest in your answers and provide explicit statements within the letter you are quoting to support your answers to these three questions?
    2.
     
    #191 The Biblicist, Nov 10, 2013
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  12. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    "44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me."

    They must be DRAWN, they must choose to HEAR, and they must choose to LEARN - to then have the result that "they come to Me". - Bob

    Your problem is that "come" includes choosing which is found in the FUTURE TENSE (v. 37) placed AFTER being given by the Father as well as placed AFTER being drawn (v. 44). The grammar and the order provided proves "coming" is consequential to both being given and drawn by the Father.

    Now, before you come back and do your "parrot" bit read my post on the contextual definition of coming as I have already proven by the context that 'coming" means "come to Christ in faith" and thus far neither you nor anyone else on this forum has yet to address that post even though I have now posted it twice. Instead all of you have chosen to simply ignore it and that is wise on your part as you canot HONESTLY deal with it.

    Now, I did not say you could not or would not deal with my post on coming. No, you can pervert what i said, you can deny the grammatical facts that don't suit your or ignore them, you can deal with it dishonestly. What I said is that you cannot deal with it HONESTLY.
     
    #192 The Biblicist, Nov 10, 2013
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  13. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    I repost this again as no one has addressed it. Carefully read what I say before answering it.
     
    #193 The Biblicist, Nov 10, 2013
  14. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    they did not address it because they cannot:thumbs::thumbs:
     
    #194 Iconoclast, Nov 10, 2013
  15. Inspector Javert

    Inspector Javert Active Member

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    #195 Inspector Javert, Nov 10, 2013
  16. Inspector Javert

    Inspector Javert Active Member

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    People "adress" your arguments and they "answer" you all the time. Problem is, you seem to think no one has "answered" you if they have failed to PROVE something to you.

    You have been "answered" a million times. Just because you can always come back with an argument doesn't mean no one has answered you. You think someone has to "Prove" you to be in error before they have "answered" you.

    Biblicist....no one on this planet could prove to you that 2+2=4 if you didn't already believe it.
     
    #196 Inspector Javert, Nov 10, 2013
  17. Inspector Javert

    Inspector Javert Active Member

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    It's just a re-wording and a repetition of the same arguments he's been debating for the last two months. A rose by any other name....

    It's simply the fact that not all people like to repeat themselves as much as he does. When this thread closes....he'll most likely re-package the same arguments and create a new thread on the same topic in the next 8-weeks or less. If no one responds to it....he'll quote his own post and begin debating with himself.

    I'll give him this, he's persistent. He should have been in W.W.I.
    He fights a battle of attrition. We'll simply give up LONG before he quits. You've got to give him the A for effort. He's got tenacity too: I admire that much about him at the very least.

    There's no NEW argument there, Icon....just a re-wording of the same one he's been making for months now.
     
    #197 Inspector Javert, Nov 11, 2013
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  18. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    #198 The Biblicist, Nov 11, 2013
  19. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    You are such a junvenile in maturity as your posts are full of ridicule but empty of substance. For the record, no one has attempted to respond to this post - check the record and see.
     
    #199 The Biblicist, Nov 11, 2013
  20. Inspector Javert

    Inspector Javert Active Member

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    That's because it's not appreciably different from what you've been be-laboring since the thread started:

    It's re-worded, re-packaged...but not appreciably different. No one can conceivably give you the answer you want unless it's "WOW Biblicist"!! Thanks for the brilliant exegesis! :wavey: :wavey: "You've been right about everything all along!" :thumbsup:

    Here goes then:

    "You know....I don't think anyone can possibly avoid the inevitable conclusions you posed about John 6: You arguments are air-tight, iron-clad and your exegesis perfect!" :thumbsup:
     
    #200 Inspector Javert, Nov 11, 2013
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