Church Music: Traditional or Contemporary?

[agedman]

God as a consuming fire is not what YOU make it out to be nor is it constrained to YOUR proof texted passage. Your behavior here is nothing short of the same behavior of the uninformed 'funny-mentalists' who give Christendom a black eye. Your only support is your own subjective opinion, so stop misusing Scripture as if it supports you.

It doesn't.

Why don't you post ANY Scripture that shows "consuming fire" as used in any other manner than I stated?

You can't.

The Scriptures don't support your view. There is note one unless taken out of context and/or distorted of intent.

Yet, you have the audacity to doubt my veracity!

Prove that "consuming fire" is NOT the judgment of God upon the unrighteous, a judgment that the believer will never experience much less should desire to experience.

Paul states: 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Such judgment is NOT the "consuming fire" as found throughout Scripture which portrays God's consuming fire directed toward the unrighteous.

That YOU have taken my posting as unbiblical is astounding!

I would expect such out of lesser folks, but not you.

Perhaps you are just being "tongue in check" in your posts, and I have missed the humor.

If I have, then I apologize for responding in the harsh temperament of this post.

If I haven't, and you persist in your view of God's consuming fire, then you are obligated to start a thread on that topic and show conclusive Scriptural evidence to support your view.

Your just saying so, no longer resounds as being of sound judgment.

Why not start with these verses:

Exodus 24:17 And to the eyes of the sons of Israel the appearance of the glory of the Lord was like a consuming fire on the mountain top.

Deuteronomy 4:24 For the Lord thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.

Deuteronomy 9:3 Understand therefore this day, that the Lord thy God is he which goeth over before thee; as a consuming fire he shall destroy them, and he shall bring them down before thy face: so shalt thou drive them out, and destroy them quickly, as the Lord hath said unto thee.

Isaiah 29:6 From the Lord of hosts you will be punished with thunder and earthquake and loud noise, With whirlwind and tempest and the flame of a consuming fire.

Isaiah 30:27 Behold, the name of the Lord comes from a remote place; Burning is His anger and dense is His smoke; His lips are filled with indignation And His tongue is like a consuming fire;

Isaiah 30:30 And the Lord will cause His voice of authority to be heard, And the descending of His arm to be seen in fierce anger, And in the flame of a consuming fire In cloudburst, downpour and hailstones.


Isaiah 33:14 Sinners in Zion are terrified; Trembling has seized the godless. “Who among us can live with the consuming fire? Who among us can live with continual burning?”

Lamentations 2:3 In fierce anger He has cut off All the strength of Israel; He has drawn back His right hand From before the enemy. And He has burned in Jacob like a flaming fire Consuming round about.

Joel 2:5 With a noise as of chariots They leap on the tops of the mountains, Like the crackling of a flame of fire consuming the stubble, Like a mighty people arranged for battle.

Hebrews 12:29 for our God is a consuming fire.


You can claim "proof text" is also used, but when such a claim is made, then one is obligated by default to show in CONTEXT the truth of the Scriptures.

I wonder if fear does not drive part of your statements.

If you admit my post as being factual in this area, then you are afraid I just may be right in the rest. Does fear drive your bias?

 

[preacher4truth]

Why don't you post ANY Scripture that shows "consuming fire" as used in any other manner than I stated?

You can't.

Not quite and actually I did.

You? Well, you've conveniently left it out of the quote. God lead His people as a consuming fire.

I also quoted the songs lyrics you hate, and nothing in the lyrics is anyhting CLOSE to what YOU make it out to be.

Yes, we get it, you hate CCM and those who sing it.

Also, NOTHING in the passage you've used supports your PERSONAL disdain and PERSONAL agenda against music you don't like. You're attempting to apply Scripture to your subjective beliefs in order to support them. Stop 2 Cor. 4:2 and do 2 Tim. 2:15 instead.

Like I said, it's your job to go around and determine who is not filled with the Spirit and who is only concerned about 'how they sound' because you can see hearts all of a sudden.

 

[evenifigoalone]

Here's some lyrics from a few songs of some of the bands mentioned here:
"Steal My Show", by TobyMac:

Another cold night
Another late flight
It's almost show time, and Diverse City's waitin' on me
We got a packed house, the crowd is callin' out
They want the beat to drop, but what we really need is You

[Chorus:]
If You wanna steal my show, I'll sit back and watch You go
If You got somethin' to say, go on and take it away
Need You to steal my show, can't wait to watch You go
So take it away

So now the crowd is hype, that you showed up tonight
Anticipatin', cravin' somethin' more than smoke and lights
So I'll step out the way, I'll give You center stage
Alight
Spotlight
Give 'em what they came for ...

[Chorus]

When You arrive, we come to life
Our hearts collide, they're beating in the same time
You're comin' through, all eyes on You
Our hearts collide, they're beating in the same time, beating in the same time

No matter who we are, no matter what we do
Every day we can choose to say ...

[Chorus]

My life
My friends
My heart
It's all Yours, God
Take it away
My dreams
My fears
My family
My career
Take it away
Take it away
It's all Yours, God
Take it away
Take it away
It's You I wanna live for

"Lose My Soul", by TobyMac:

Man I wanna tell you all something, Man.
Man I'm not gonna let these material thing's, get in my way, you all.
I'm trying to get somewhere.
I'm trying to get somewhere,
Thats real and pure and true and eternal.

Father God, I am clay in your hands,
Help me to stay that way through all life's demands,
'Cause they chip and they nag and they pull at me,
And every little thing I make up my mind to be,
Like I'm gonna be a daddy whose in the mix,
And I'm gonna be a husband who stays legit,
And I pray that I'm an artist who rises above,
The road that is wide and filled with self love,
Everything that I see draws me,
Though it's only in You that I can truly see that its a feast for the eyes- a low blow to purpose.
And I'm a little kid at a three ring circus.

I don't want to gain the whole world, and lose my soul,
Don't wanna walk away, let me hear the people say.
I don't want to gain the whole world, and lose my soul,
Don't wanna walk away, let me hear the people say.

(Mr. Franklin, Step up to the mic sir)

The paparazzi flashes, and that they think that it's you,
But they don't know that who you are is not what you do,
True, we get it twisted when we peak at the charts,
Yo before we part from the start,
Where's your heart?
You a pimp, hustler?
Tell me what's your title,
America has no more stars, now we call them idols,
You sit idle, While we teach prosperity,
The first thing to prosper should be inside of me.
We're free...
Not because of 22's on the range,
But Christ came in range, we said yes now we changed,
Not the same, even though I made a fall,
Since I got that call, no more Saul, now I'm Paul.
(YEP!)

I don't want to gain the whole world, and lose my soul,
Don't wanna walk away, let me hear the people say.
I don't want to gain the whole world, and lose my soul,
Don't wanna walk away, let me hear the people say.
Don't wanna walk away,
Don't wanna walk away

How do I sense the tide that's rising?
De-sensitizing me from living in light of eternity,
How do I sense the tide that's rising?
It's hypnotizing me from living in light of eternity,
How do I sense the tide that's rising?
De-sensitizing me from living in light of eternity.

(Lord what we gonna do,We're relying on you,
all eyes are on you Lord,
all eyes are on you, all eyes are on you Jesus.)

I don't want to gain the whole world, and lose my soul,
Don't wanna walk away, let me hear the people say.
(Don't let me lose my soul, my soul.)
I don't want to gain the whole world, and lose my soul,
(This is my honesty, Father, won't you cover me.)
I don't want to gain the whole world, and lose my soul,
(Don't wanna walk away, and all those people say)
I don't want to gain the whole world, and lose my soul,
(Don't wanna lose, I don't wanna lose my soul.)

Lord forgive us when we get consumed by the things of this world,
That fight for our love, and our passion,
As our eyes are open wide and on you.
Grant us the privilege of your world view,
And may your kingdom be, what wakes us up, and lays us down.

(Hallelujah, Don't wanna lose our soul,
No, Don't wanna lose my soul.)

Hey excuse me,
I'm looking for the after party,
Toby,
Ha ha, yeah, last door on the left, you'll hear it.
Thanks,
No problem.

Don't let me lose my soul, I never wanna walk away,
I don't wanna lose my soul,
No, no, no.
Don't let me, don't let me, lose my soul,
I don't wanna walk away,
Don't let me walk away,
Na na na na no,
Don't let me lose, my soul,
I'm never gonna walk away.

(Cotin'd in next post.)

 

[evenifigoalone]

"Please Don't Let Me Go", by Group 1 Crew:

"Please Don't Let Me Go"

Please don't let me go
Please don't let me go

I've seen days
Where the nights don't end
I've seen strangers
I used to call friend

How can I begin to trust
In the fact that You'd never let me go
Been left so many times
Feel like nobody could know

The sound that my heart makes
When it starts to break
And the pain that I hate
Waits for me everyday

And yet I lie awake
Alive and still breathin'
Hopin' that this time in my life
Is just a season

Believin' the words
You spoke to Your people
How you'd never leave
Even though we couldn't see You

How You would make us prosper
Even though we couldn't pay You
Back now there's nothing I lack

Please don't let me go
If I can't have Your love
My hearts got no where to go
Only You can rescue me

Please don't let me go
I'd be lost inside a dying world
Just trying to find my home
It's with You I belong
Please don't let me go

I remember the moments life was a blur
An adolescent spirit, far from mature
I couldn't tell between a friend or a foe
So alone I remained, looked to the sky for hope

It's hard to feel alive when you're cold
It's hard to reach the sky when you're low
Sunlight is hard to find in a storm
How can I give love if my souls been torn

A broken vessel, you call it a master piece
No eye can see how deeply You're in love with me
Honestly I can't love me how You love me
But obviously there's something that You want from me

'Cause You don't want to let me go
Owner of the world but You want my soul
My heart is crying out, Lord, please take control
I need You and I don't wanna let go

Please don't let me go
If I can't have Your love
My heart's got no where to go
Only You can rescue me

Please don't let me go
I'd be lost inside a dying world
Just trying to find my home
It's with You, I belong
Please don't let me go

(Don't let me go)
Please don't let me go
(Don't let me go)
Please don't let me go

And I've seen who I could be
Without You close to me
I can't recognize that person
Staring back at me

And You've seen how my heart breaks
From the choices I have made
I know Your love can take it all away

Please don't let me go
If I can't have Your love
My heart's got no where to go
Only You can rescue me

Please don't let me go
I'd be lost inside a dying world
Just trying to find my home
It's with You, I belong
Please don't let me go
Please don't let me go
Please don't let me go

Please don't let me go
Please don't let me go
Please don't let me go

Don't let me go
God, save me
Don't let me go
Don't let me go
Don't let me go

Please don't let me go
Don't let me go
Don't let me go

"Forgive Me", by Group 1 Crew:

Father, I'm going through some heavy things
It seems like this world ain't getting any better
The more we try to get closer to You
The farther we run from Your throne

I've spent so many nights wonderin' when will it end
When will the day come when happiness begins
I'm running the race but it seems too hard to win
I'm sick of mourning my stomach is throwing up in the morning

I'm calling for help and watching it melt away
My heart's been put on display and put away
In many ways, many times I told myself it was ok
And anger was the price that was paid
While these faded dreams just screamed to bring them home

The burden was too heavy I kept running from the throne
I can't take it any longer
I can taste my spirit hunger
God please help me get home

[Chorus:]
Lord though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death
I'm not scared cause You're holding my breath
I only fear that I don't have enough time left
To tell the world that there's no time left, Lord please
Lord though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death
I'm not scared cause You're holding my breath
I only fear that I don't have enough time left
To tell the world that there's no time left

I've come to terms that I'm burning both sides of the rope
And I'm hoping that self-control would kick in before I'm choking off
The sin that be destroying every fiber I got
I need the Lord in every way I'll never make it I'm not
Going back to the way I was before Christ in my life
I couldn't do it I would lose it there's no point to the fight
And I'm writing this song, for the people who don't belong
I pray away the pain you feel from all the things that went wrong
Inside a life that's filled with anger and disappointment
Cause daddy treated you weaker than all of the other kids
It's annoying and I feel for all of you who wanna give up
You feel stuck I feel the same way Lord help us stay up
You couldn't pay me to abandon the idea of true hope
That I could make it through this life into a place where there's no crying
I'm dying to find You with open arms when I go
Knowing You love me and You waiting to give rest to my soul

Lord I don't know what I'm struggling for
There's go to be more
Than this life I know
But still I'm here fighting to never give up
I find strength in Your love
And You will see me through

"Death of Me", by Royal Tailor:

This is the death of me
Oh, oh, oh
The death of me
Oh, oh, oh

The death of me
Oh, oh, oh
The death of me
Oh, oh, oh

Lost, I was wandering around,
hoping I could find a place;
I'd be more than just a face,
In the crowd.

I heard one day,
You came, and turned the lost into the saved.
Now you're showing me the way.
All along I've been believing, I was living.

[Chorus]
But, now that I'm free.
I finally see, living's worth dying for.
Buried with you, you're making me new.
The old me's dead and gone.

This is the death of me
Oh, oh, oh
The death of me
Oh, oh, oh

The death of me
Oh, oh, oh
The death of me
Oh, oh, oh

Your words, were just ink on a page.
Always so hard to believe.
Until you revealed to me that,
Your love stepped in to the world,
Now my past has been erased.

Cause you saved me with your grace.
Your grace.
All along I've been believing, I was living.

[Chorus]
But now that I'm free,
I finally see,
Living's worth dying for.
Buried with you, you're making me new.
The old me's dead and gone.

This is the death of me
Oh, oh, oh
The death of me
Oh, oh, oh

The death of me
Oh, oh, oh
The death of me
Oh, oh, oh

No more holding onto all my secrets.
No more living with these broken pieces.
Now my life's been changed.

Today is a new day,
And I'll never be the same.
No, No, No.

[Chorus]
Now that I'm free,
I finally see,
Living's worth dying for.
Buried with you, you're making me new.
The old me's dead and gone.

This is the death of me
Oh, oh, oh
The death of me
Oh, oh, oh

The death of me
Oh, oh, oh
The death of me
Oh, oh, oh

This is the death of me
Oh, oh, oh
The death of me
Oh, oh, oh

This is the death of me
Oh, oh, oh
The death of me
Oh, oh, oh

This is the death of me
Oh, oh, oh
The death of me
Oh, oh, oh

This is the death of me
Oh, oh, oh
The death of me
Oh, oh, oh

Death of me!
This is the death of me!

"Give Me Faith", by Royal Tailor:

I wanna feel the strength David felt
with a rag and a rock, knowing that he couldn’t fail
And I wanna trust that would lead me up a hill
To give my only son, if I knew it was Your will
I want a faith like that, God give me faith like that

To speak your word and mountains move
To reach beyond all I can do
Cause your doing things I cannot see,
So I’m gonna trust you and believe
You are all I need, give me faith

When my heart’s about to break
Don’t know how much I can take
And my soul is like a ship, overtaken by the waves
I need the courage to walk on the water and be strong
Like Peter in the storm until I fall into your arms
I want a faith like that, God give me faith like that

I believe you’re strong enough to save
I believe every promise you’ve made
And when I just don’t understand,
you hold my world inside your hands

I’ll speak your word and mountains move
I’ll reach beyond all I can do
Cause your doing things I cannot see,
So I’m gonna trust you and believe
You are all I need, give me faith

(I already covered Red and Skillet.)

Yeah, guys, these lyrics are sooo unChristian.

Now if you have any reason to dislike the message in the song or happen to believe that for whatever reason the music is unGodly--or for any reason feel like it's not for you, then it's all well and good that you don't listen to it. I would hope that you would abide by your standards and convictions.

But face it, not everyone is going to agree with you. Some of us can worship to CCW and CCM because some of us see little to no problem with it.
Either way we're still brothers and sisters in Christ. Just because we disagree on something so trivial as music choices shouldn't be a cause for bitter words and feelings.

 

[saturneptune]

Guess no one is going to take up the challenge. Show me the worst lyrics in the modern, contemporary music, and I can show much worse in the non hymnal Gospel type songs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SO5Y1OuQIxo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9j0iu9S6740

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8v7YIgitW9g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bL91-Q-AYuY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gdPyGbI8RA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CW8mm00f_k8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uloaEY81hOQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jY88tnXZWOQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jY88tnXZWOQ

This is pure theological garbage, and the very ones who condemn modern contemporary music are listening to this. Show me one lyric from contemporary that matches this trash.

I still contend that most church members are not giving the lyrics a second thought. It is the beat of the music and the instruments that the on their way out generation does not like. Also, they just gotta hold onto them there hymnbooks. And lest we forget, Amazing Grace and Rock of Ages were Divinely Inspired.

 

[agedman]

Not quite and actually I did.

You? Well, you've conveniently left it out of the quote. God lead His people as a consuming fire.

I also quoted the songs lyrics you hate, and nothing in the lyrics is anyhting CLOSE to what YOU make it out to be.

Yes, we get it, you hate CCM and those who sing it.

Also, NOTHING in the passage you've used supports your PERSONAL disdain and PERSONAL agenda against music you don't like. You're attempting to apply Scripture to your subjective beliefs in order to support them. Stop 2 Cor. 4:2 and do 2 Tim. 2:15 instead.

Like I said, it's your job to go around and determine who is not filled with the Spirit and who is only concerned about 'how they sound' because you can see hearts all of a sudden.

This is a joke, right?

You really can find that statement (God lead his people as a consuming fire) in the Scriptures?

Preacher4truth - There is NO verse that has that statement pertaining to believers.

Perhaps you are attempting to use Hebrews. But the context of the "consuming fire" is removing this world and worldly systems which reside on "sand" in contrast to the solid unshakable "rock" He has provided.

That has NOTHING to do with God leading his people as a consuming fire.

When was fire used to lead God's people and what did it mean?

It was used by God during the exodus from Egypt to the Promised Land.

Fire by night was a practical meaning of warmth in the terribly cold conditions of wilderness nights, but Spiritually it has the application of providing warmth to the believer in the dreaded darkness of the word and assurance of the light burning within as His light and not self generated pretended illumination.

I don't know a bible scholar that does not state that the pillar of fire and cloud were not only a testimony to BOTH Israel and non-Israel that God was with them throughout the journey (as He is with us in this journey) but also a statement that "He will never leave or forsake." For that whole journey was shows in reality the direction and protection by God being in front of them. The believer has the same "type" of guidance of God being IN us, showing direction and protection in the dread of night as well as the heat of the day.

This fire NEVER is portrayed in Scripture as "consuming" in the sense of "bring" righteousness. Such preaching is inappropriate and misdirected and frankly presenting God no better than that presented by the serpent in Eden.

The word "consuming fire" is always used toward the unrighteousness of the world and the unrighteous people of the world. NEVER toward the believer.

The "consuming fire" is to bring fear and dread to the unrighteous and unrighteousness.

However the believer does not dread and our fear is not of judgment but of a holy reverence. God's perfect love removes all fear and dread for we are not ordered to wrath but to promise - Just as was those of the wilderness wandering - a type (picture) of the believer's state in this world and promise of the land to come.

That some would misdirect this theological point and use it as something for the believer to embrace is at best deceitful.

Again, no better than what the serpent used in Eden - misdirecting the Word of God, and presenting half truth.

That some would do the same musically shows even more how deceit is the hallmark of the enemy of Christ.

It is troubling that YOU do not see the theological aspects in this matter, but embrace the deception, thus making your two verses apply to yourself.

If you think I am wrong on "consuming fire" then open a thread to that end and prove it. Show that I have used proof text. That the Scriptures do not present consuming fire as I have stated they do.

If you cannot present the truth in this matter, then you need to change your handle or change your presentation of what you embrace as truthful.

Just so you don't miss it, when you reread my posts, please note that I directed it at ALL forms of music in ALL settings!

 

[Baptist4life]

I'm not talking about "lyrics". I'm talking about behavior!! Just because you say "Jesus" somewhere in a song doesn't make it a Christian song. Benny Hinn talks about Jesus too. You wanna defend him also? The "way" these bands behave on stage, screaming, jumping up and down, lewd dancing, fire and laser beam light shows.............c'mon now. I LIKE a LOT of the modern Christian songs, but those videos are a whole 'nother story. I'm sorry, post all the lyrics you want, you'll never convince me God is pleased with that stuff.

http://www.babylonforsaken.com/crockexposed.html

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/rockm/satanic.htm

http://www.northsidebaptistchurch.o...istian-rock-music/117-music-in-the-bible.html

http://www.squidoo.com/christian-rock-music-praising-god-or-the-world

 

[preacher4truth]

This is a joke, right?

You really can find that statement (God lead his people as a consuming fire) in the Scriptures?

Preacher4truth - There is NO verse that has that statement pertaining to believers.

Deuteronomy 9:3. I've already given it to you once. Praising God in song as a consuming fire judging enemies. This is His glory revealed. It's called an attribute. You simply don't like ccm and your arguments are huge out of application stretches. The truth there does in fact pertain to Gods people.

Then there is this nonsense from you and no shame where there should be shame. You judge those who sing CCM infer they aren't filled with the Spirit, and say they only do it to sound good. So tell me when you got put on a pedestal and throne and were gifted to read hearts and infer upon ones spiritual state something negative because they sing and play music you hate.

The rest of your post was pure conjecture and subjective use of scripture and unfortunately drivel laden. You simply don't like ccm. We got it.

 

[agedman]

Guess no one is going to take up the challenge. Show me the worst lyrics in the modern, contemporary music, and I can show much worse in the non hymnal Gospel type songs.

Hey, now stop this right here!

Your mess'n with the Chuck Wagon Gang! They were good people.

This is pure theological garbage, and the very ones who condemn modern contemporary music are listening to this. Show me one lyric from contemporary that matches this trash.

Ones who know me know I do and historically have shown and compared - as I suggested in a previous post as applicable to ALL music.

Seriously, if folks who pervert doctrine for showmanship were not and ARE not condemned as presenting half truth and failed doctrine, then it is truly shameful!

Too often, preachers and fine arts folks have been "excused" from being held accountable for sound doctrine.

Such isn't a "modern trend" but excuse of behavior has been around sense God confronted Adam.

Too often folks get by with what is not Scriptural because they are "good."

Such is wrong - no matter what the "showmanship" or being labeled as "good people."

I still contend that most church members are not giving the lyrics a second thought.

That is so very true!

That has been the center of my own discussion of music with the assemblies for well over 50 years!

It is the beat of the music and the instruments that the on their way out generation does not like.

I disagree.

The "elements" of music have little to do with the impact. Rather, it is how the elements are put together.

Using beat as an example. I will present a brief music lesson.

Beat must occur in all music - it is the unheard feeling of keeping time. When you hear "the beat" it is called rhythm.

Now before anyone starts on my case about the "common term" meaning, please - I've heard it all before - doesn't change the facts.

A repeated rhythm set to a steady tempo causes the brain to respond with movement.

The stronger the rhythm (more dominant) to the steady tempo the more tension and more overt the movement.

This is why you see in one of the clips posted earlier the head and leg movements becoming more and more overt.

The questions must be raised:

If in fact the body is controlled to this extent by the music of rhythm and tempo, how much more should it not be controlled by the Holy Spirit?

Are the two (as shown in that video clip) consistent as presenting the believer as worldly or not?

These are questions each believer must account in their own walk, and not to be ignored - which is historically such examination has NOT been consistently taught or even a consideration of the typical believer.

Also, a matter to consider is the intended focus of the performers.

If one desires to incite the crowd, then quoting "Mary had a little lamb" at Christmas can be used. It matters very little as far as what is used, be it traditional, modern or blended, be it sacred or secular. Crowds are dumb when it comes to being duped into a lie. Example - look at the youth movement in Germany during the mid to late 1930's.

This is NOT a generational issue.

It is an issue of how the enemy of the believer can distort, disunion, and destroy.

This issue wouldn't even be an issue if folks would determine to follow what Paul said to the Thessoalonians:

14 We urge you, brethren, admonish the unruly, encourage the fainthearted, help the weak, be patient with everyone. 15 See that no one repays another with evil for evil, but always seek after that which is good for one another and for all people. 16 Rejoice always; 17 pray without ceasing; 18 in everything give thanks; for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus. 19 Do not quench the Spirit; 20 do not despise prophetic utterances. 21 But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;22 abstain from every form of evil.
​

Also, they just gotta hold onto them there hymnbooks. And lest we forget, Amazing Grace and Rock of Ages were Divinely Inspired.

I understand your disgust, but think it is an over reach.

What song has been recorded more, performed more, and sung by more professionals of note more than any other?

Amazing Grace.


Not to say it is inspired in the sense of rising to the level of God's word, but one must admit that there has been no greater song written to date.

And to think Newton wrote the song to be sung for his assembly only, and it was not until much later he included it in a hymnal.

Folks,

There is a common test given to all "great art" by those in the fine art business.

First, is it elementally solid - that is by structure and design is it "put together" in a way that makes sense. For example one does not recognize as great anything that is filled with nothing but discordant sounds of no purpose but randomly thrown together as a child might "bang on the piano keys."

Second, is it lasting. Does it have staying power. The art of "great artists" remain great - not because of the artist's name recognition, but because the art itself is great art. Examples can be recognized in the work of any notable fine arts book.

Note: Fine arts does not mean just drawing and painting. Fine arts is ALL the arts - music, sculpting, painting, acting, performance, dance, ...

 

[Jerome]

Stryken, 'Crush the Head of Satan':

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxTOKwOQqmc

"There he goes!
Take him away!
Crush!
Crush!
Crush!

He roars like a lion, seeking whom he may devour
Oh yeah!
But think for a minute, who gave him the power
Oh yeah!
I know, you know, it’s time we all choose
Jesus - Satan, you win or you lose

Crush the head of Satan! Under our feet
Crush the head of Satan! Lord God of Peace
Crush the head of Satan! Don’t let him breathe
Crush him!
Crush him!. . . "

 

[Baptist4life]

Stryken, 'Crush the Head of Satan':

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxTOKwOQqmc

"There he goes!
Take him away!
Crush!
Crush!
Crush!

He roars like a lion, seeking whom he may devour
Oh yeah!
But think for a minute, who gave him the power
Oh yeah!
I know, you know, it’s time we all choose
Jesus - Satan, you win or you lose

Crush the head of Satan! Under our feet
Crush the head of Satan! Lord God of Peace
Crush the head of Satan! Don’t let him breathe
Crush him!
Crush him!. . . "

The members of Stryken all used stage names to conceal their true identities. One of the members of Stryken, stage name, Stephen Streiker, (birth name, Stephen Hopkins) has gone on to repent of his career in "Christian rock", which he now refers to as, "a contradiction of terms". Today Hopkins serves as an elder and pastor of a "family-integrated" reformed Baptist church in Burnet, Texas, and is the father of sixteen children. He also authored the book, The Cult of Jabez, and the falling away of the church in America.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stryken

 

[Jerome]

Yeah, now he's 'Founders Friendly':

http://www.founders.org/misc/chlist/TX.html

Church affiliation: Independent Reformed Baptist
Church confession: 2nd London Baptist Confession (1689)
Contact: Stephen Hopkins, Pastor/elder
A family integrated Bible church since 1996.

LOL I don't imagine the spandex/cosmetics/caterwauling schtick would go over well in his new crowd.

 

[agedman]

Deuteronomy 9:3. I've already given it to you once. Praising God in song as a consuming fire judging enemies. This is His glory revealed. It's called an attribute.

You are so very wrong:

Look at these commentaries to see why.

This passage is not presented "in song" but as prophecy of why God is going to destroy the folks ahead of Israel.

The people are not praising God "in song" but listening to how utterly failures they are, yet God is faithful to destroy the wickedness despite what His own are like.

That you don't recognize this is quite troubling.

But your use of this as an excuse is more proof of why you are not really reading my posts on this thread accurately.

You simply don't like ccm and your arguments are huge out of application stretches. The truth there does in fact pertain to Gods people.

A biased assumption unproven, unfounded, and shown repeatedly untrue.

I have seen nothing of substance from your post that I wouldn't put in the place of a person who grabs any verse thinking they prove the view valid when they have not.

As it applies to the "consuming fire" issue - which this discussion between us is supposed to reflect, unless you can show that the Scriptures do in fact teach that the words are used to enhance, or even at all applicable to the believer, you will remain fatally wrong.

I gave you a list of all the verses in which the words are used, and you have come back with one attempt and that was with rational that is foreign to the actual intent used in any use of the words in Scripture.

You tolerate from yourself, what historically on the BB you have not tolerated out of others!

Then there is this nonsense from you and no shame where there should be shame. You judge those who sing CCM infer they aren't filled with the Spirit, and say they only do it to sound good. So tell me when you got put on a pedestal and throne and were gifted to read hearts and infer upon ones spiritual state something negative because they sing and play music you hate.

The rest of your post was pure conjecture and subjective use of scripture and unfortunately drivel laden. You simply don't like ccm. We got it.

You are so beyond wrong!

Show me were I have blanket judged all "those who sing CCM" and "infer they aren't filled with the Spirit."

But, then what have you offered for actual proof of your view of "consuming fire" being presented Scripturally?

• You have attempted and failed to put my posts into an inappropriate alignment.
• You have attempted and failed to use Scriptures to bolster and validate your own scheme.
• You have attempted and failed to scorn my own use of Scripture, fatally trying to refute the Word with inaccurate statements not only about me but the Word, too.
• You have attempted and failed to show how the "consuming fire" referenced in the posts above are doctrinally sound and should not be openly rebuked.

Yet, you would consider my "post was pure conjecture and subjective use of scripture and unfortunately drivel laden."

I conclude that, unless I read differently, you are destitute of true wisdom when it comes to the topic of "consuming fire;" also, I am certainly disappointed with your discernment of my posts - for it is apparent you have not read with any display of understanding and without assumption of bias.

 

[InTheLight]

I'm not talking about "lyrics". I'm talking about behavior!! Just because you say "Jesus" somewhere in a song doesn't make it a Christian song. Benny Hinn talks about Jesus too. You wanna defend him also? The "way" these bands behave on stage, screaming, jumping up and down, lewd dancing, fire and laser beam light shows.............c'mon now. I LIKE a LOT of the modern Christian songs, but those videos are a whole 'nother story. I'm sorry, post all the lyrics you want, you'll never convince me God is pleased with that stuff.

http://www.babylonforsaken.com/crockexposed.html

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/rockm/satanic.htm

http://www.northsidebaptistchurch.o...istian-rock-music/117-music-in-the-bible.html

http://www.squidoo.com/christian-rock-music-praising-god-or-the-world

From the links:

Is the music free from unnatural backbeats, break-beats, and sensual sounds that appeal to my sinful flesh?

Totally subjective.

Under this chapter heading, Jeff Godwin reports on CHRISTIAN ROCK. He says "Christian rock" is a contradiction in terms. "How can Christ be unequally yoked with the perverse paganism of Rock?"

When you join yourself to rock music, you are joining Jesus Christ to perverse, world loving paganism!

Godwin maintains that Satan is the King of Rock, and that he does not stop at the door of the Gospel Record store. Rather, Satan is now mounting a strategic offensive against Christians, utilizing willing, zealous believers to propagate the beat, the style and the hidden messages amongst young Christians.

Question begging, innuendo, unsupported allegations.

Since the score of contemporary Christian rock music, with its syncopation and slurring of notes, is virtually indistinguishable from its secular counterpart, one has to wonder if spirituality is being eroded and carnality is being propagated. (One should always assess "Christian" music thusly: "Does it stir the flesh to 'boogie,' or the spirit to praise the Lord?")

Innuendo, leading questions, false choices.

Is Christian rock music godly? My answer would have to be a firm "no". As far as I can see, there are no redeeming qualities to this form of music, and nothing that even remotely reminds a person of God's goodness and His great love for us. I mean, look at some of the album covers of bands that call themselves "Christian"

Totally subjective.

 

[preacher4truth]

You are so very wrong:
That you don't recognize this is quite troubling.

You have serious reading comprehension problems my friend.

I never said the VERSE was about the people of God singing a thing. I implied the song you hate IS and that it can Scripturally use it in support and by way of application to the believer today as well as it was for the people of God then. Get it now?

Remember though, it is your job to tell us who is spirit filled, or to cast doubt that others are, and to tell us who only does things to sound good -- yes, all who sing music you don't like fall into that camp, right?

Learn to own up, learn to comprehend and put an end to misrepresenting me.

I have seen nothing of substance from your post that I wouldn't put in the place of a person who grabs any verse thinking they prove the view valid when they have not.

You said there is no Scriptural basis for singing about God a consuming fire, or some drivel like that, and/or that it is not for God's people. Dt. 9:3 shows it IS in FACT FOR God's people and is for them in that it is against God's peoples enemies.

As it applies to the "consuming fire" issue - which this discussion between us is supposed to reflect, unless you can show that the Scriptures do in fact teach that the words are used to enhance, or even at all applicable to the believer, you will remain fatally wrong.

You're ridiculous. I've already done that and showed you it was for His people. The OT is written for us as well and is applicable. Go see Paul on that one. 2 Timothy 3:15ff as well. Also in one of his other epistles explicitly says it is for US. Go dig into your Bible and learn for once and where it is. No matter how you try to dismiss clear evidence and application you cannot and have not done it.

I gave you a list of all the verses in which the words are used, and you have come back with one attempt and that was with rational that is foreign to the actual intent used in any use of the words in Scripture.

See above my friend and admit. I've given you a passage that was for God's people and it is clearly stated as such.

You tolerate from yourself, what historically on the BB you have not tolerated out of others!

So you're hysterical and historical. Calm down. You're angry and now getting personal. I've seen your anger for some time now. Just admit your error and that you missed a passage that shows it is for God's people.

You are so beyond wrong!

Dream on! :smilewinkgrin: :laugh:

Show me were I have blanket judged all "those who sing CCM" and "infer they aren't filled with the Spirit."

You've done it in this thread way back. You're trying to bury it. You both judged AND condemned ALL CCM singers and told us the intent of their hearts and judged them about being filled with the spirit, casting doubt on that. We all know what the intent of doing that is. Don't play dumb. I know EXACTLY what you meant. You've also claimed others are deceived by them, implied they are &c. That's foolishness on your part. You've gone too far.

You know what you did after that? You ASSUMED then that I use CCM music or that it is my fav (something similar) and you went on a little tirade over that. Ridiculous behavior on your part agedman.

Yet, you would consider my "post was pure conjecture and subjective use of scripture and unfortunately drivel laden."

It was. It is again.

I conclude that, unless I read differently, you are destitute of true wisdom when it comes to the topic of "consuming fire;" also, I am certainly disappointed with your discernment of my posts - for it is apparent you have not read with any display of understanding and without assumption of bias.

You who has judged CCM persons are going to come out and attempt to condemn another's 'discernment'? That is getting hypocritical bro. Wow, just wow!

More personal attacks. I've given clear evidence the passage was IN FACT for God's people. I never claimed the VERSE was a song. Ever. You added that then attacked it. I implied it is a justifiable verse for singing about our God being a consuming fire FOR us against our ENEMIES. The NT also supports as I've shown above that the OT is in fact for us.

Keep your personal attacks out of this, you've used it on many godly singers and condemned them and their spiritual state, now you're turning that on me as well. Put an end to it and accept the fact that you misrepresented me (I never claimed the verse a song) and that God a consuming fire is applicable to believers today as it was to them as well. Your hatred for the CCM people has blinded you with anger and you've been on an attacking tirade since. We get it, you disdain them as people and their music.

 

[InTheLight]

I LIKE a LOT of the modern Christian songs, but those videos are a whole 'nother story.

Ok, list 5 CCM songs you like.

 

[agedman]

You have serious reading comprehension problems my friend.

I never said the VERSE was about the people of God singing a thing. I implied the song you hate IS and that it can Scripturally use it in support and by way of application to the believer today as well as it was for the people of God then. Get it now?

But THAT is the point - the intent AND the direct statements of the song are not Scriptural.

THAT is what you contended in this discussion, and I have shown it as totally false.

Remember though, it is your job to tell us who is spirit filled, or to cast doubt that others are, and to tell us who only does things to sound good -- yes, all who sing music you don't like fall into that camp, right?

Learn to own up, learn to comprehend and put an end to misrepresenting me.

If one is presenting what is unScriptural as Scriptural and statements are made of them having the Holy Spirit direction and making truthful statements, how is that presenting what is righteous?

How is that not exactly the same as done in Eden.

You said there is no Scriptural basis for singing about God a consuming fire, or some drivel like that, and/or that it is not for God's people. Dt. 9:3 shows it IS in FACT FOR God's people and is for them in that it is against God's peoples enemies.

What you SHOULD and this group should have done was modified the lyrics to refer to God's "Refining fire."

See this example:

Psalms 66: 10 For You have tried us, O God;
You have refined us as silver is refined.

Jeremiah 9:7 Therefore thus says the LORD of hosts,
“Behold, I will refine them and assay them;
For what else can I do, because of the daughter of My people?
​

In both of these, the people are not "consumed" but refined. A huge difference because God does not "consume" those of His name.

Rather, he purges them, prunes them, but never does he utter destroy them as "consuming fire" used in EVERY case means.

This is a point of doctrine, and sloppy doctrine leads to sloppy Christianity in practice and discernment.

You're ridiculous. I've already done that and showed you it was for His people. The OT is written for us as well and is applicable. Go see Paul on that one. 2 Timothy 3:15ff as well. Also in one of his other epistles explicitly says it is for US. Go dig into your Bible and learn for once and where it is. No matter how you try to dismiss clear evidence and application you cannot and have not done it.

See above my friend and admit. I've given you a passage that was for God's people and it is clearly stated as such.

Sloppy interpretation on your part does not mean I am obliged to agree.

Correct you interpretation, and perhaps there may be agreement.

Deuteronomy 9 specifically gives the reason for the consuming fire. It was not for His people. In fact, there was absolutely NO REASON related to the Israeli, that God went before them as a "Consuming fire."

4 "Do not say in your heart when the LORD your God has driven them out before you, ‘Because of my righteousness the LORD has brought me in to possess this land,’ but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD is dispossessing them before you. 5 "It is not for your righteousness or for the uprightness of your heart that you are going to possess their land, but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD your God is driving them out before you, in order to confirm the oath which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. 6 "Know, then, it is not because of your righteousness that the LORD your God is giving you this good land to possess, for you are a stubborn people.

So you're hysterical

Only as dementia overtakes me as a thief creeping about destroying what I once commanded in strength. Covering me over with shadows long past.

and historical. Calm down. You're angry and now getting personal. I've seen your anger for some time now. Just admit your error and that you missed a passage that shows it is for God's people.

If I missed the passage you would have been able to show it. But you haven't, and what I have done is show you in error.

You've done it in this thread way back. You're trying to bury it. You both judged AND condemned ALL CCM singers and told us the intent of their hearts and judged them about being filled with the spirit, casting doubt on that.

Are you so confident in your own wisdom that you automatically can see what is only Spiritually discerned?

I stated what the Apostle John states needs to be a practice of the believer.

We all know what the intent of doing that is. Don't play dumb. I know EXACTLY what you meant. You've also claimed others are deceived by them, implied they are &c. That's foolishness on your part. You've gone too far.

As already pointed out on the thread the deceit and slight of hand is no "modern" phenomena, but is typical from Eden.

More than 50 years ago, I stood encouraging believers to use discernment and as Paul states to sift everything by Scripture and Scripture principle. Especially those who proclaim the Scriptures be it preaching, writing or in the fine arts.

If this group sings a song that is based upon a Scriptural view that is false, then the discernment of the believer needs to reject not just the song, but the spirit behind the song.

Again, it is alarming that you don't support such as basic to practice by the believer.

You know what you did after that? You ASSUMED then that I use CCM music or that it is my fav (something similar) and you went on a little tirade over that. Ridiculous behavior on your part agedman.

Oh, pooh.

Your posts have been nothing but supportive of CCM and CCW.

Don't be like Adam and try to shift the blame for your lack of discernment.

You who has judged CCM persons are going to come out and attempt to condemn another's 'discernment'? That is getting hypocritical bro. Wow, just wow!

When it is shown in sloppy handling of Scriptures (as you have done) and in supporting what is clearly presented as unScriptural (as you have done) it is not hypocritical to be called out for the error.

More personal attacks. I've given clear evidence the passage was IN FACT for God's people. I never claimed the VERSE was a song. Ever. You added that then attacked it. I implied it is a justifiable verse for singing about our God being a consuming fire FOR us against our ENEMIES. The NT also supports as I've shown above that the OT is in fact for us.

Nope, as I have given example from Scripture there is NEVER a time when "consuming fire" is used other than applying to heathen.

Keep your personal attacks out of this, you've used it on many godly singers and condemned them and their spiritual state, now you're turning that on me as well. Put an end to it and accept the fact that you misrepresented me (I never claimed the verse a song) and that God a consuming fire is applicable to believers today as it was to them as well. Your hatred for the CCM people has blinded you with anger and you've been on an attacking tirade since. We get it, you disdain them as people and their music.

My personal attacks?

Do you read your own posts?

If you think I have misrepresented you, or your statements, then perhaps you need to print your posts, and spend some time in reflection.

You claim what is not Scriptural as related for God's own. You have been shown wrong.

You claim that I am taking Scriptures and "stretching" them to some view that supports my own bias. You have been shown wrong.

You claim that I am proclaiming judgment on a specific style of worship. There is no foundation in my posts on this thread to support that reflection.

Perhaps that might not be a waste of time.

Like I stated, you are at the point to where you will either have to change your handle or change your post views on this matter.

 

[preacher4truth]

But THAT is the point - the intent AND the direct statements of the song are not Scriptural.

THAT is what you contended in this discussion, and I have shown it as totally false.

You said there is no such passage for God's people, and I showed you one that is specifically for the people of God. You're being dishonest and won't own up.

Here is the verse which you claim does not show God as a consuming fire for His people:


"Know therefore today that it is the LORD your God who is crossing over before you as a consuming fire. He will destroy them and He will subdue them before you, so that you may drive them out and destroy them quickly, just as the LORD has spoken to you. Deut. 9:3


You falsely stated I claimed the VERSE a SONG and I did no such thing. But you don't talk in facts, you talk in straw man arguments and even avoid things you've stated clearly in this thread and deny you've said them. Hmmmmm. Interesting.

The LORD. A consuming fire for His people. It's plainly in the text. Deny it all you want.

My personal attacks?

Do you read your own posts?

I've pointed out your personal attacks both upon all CCM groups singers and on me. If you have something specific other than some generalization about me attacking personally then go fetch it. I've shown you to do this in the context of this thread.

You claim that I am taking Scriptures and "stretching" them to some view that supports my own bias.

You say God is not a consuming fire for His people and used that fabrication to condemn a group that sings. I've shown that He in fact is such. It's plainly in the Scripture above.

You claim that I am proclaiming judgment on a specific style of worship. There is no foundation in my posts on this thread to support that reflection.

You have right here and here is the quote and there is more:

Often, when I have had occasion to be in a CCW situation, it comes across as more of a Las Vegas show, than actual worship. Usually the team of "worship leaders" are more into how good they sound than being filled with the Holy Spirit.

Did not the Scriptures teach - BE STILL and know that I am God. How does the Holy Spirit communicate when you can't even hear yourself think or are plastered with nothing but worldliness that is designed to heighten the sensual, visual, and physical - but dulls the intellectual and true spiritual.

Such "worship" is not inconsistent with the lie being pushed by the enemy of the true believers and is reminiscent of the godless golden calf expressions.

I had occasion many years ago to visit with Haralan Popov (see here: Tortured for His Faith). This man lived a life of true faithfulness and I seriously doubt any modern CCW person could come close to enduring what he did.

I doubt seriously that very many CCW persons has even read or would consider supporting the ministry still ongoing here: (Door of Hope, Int.)

You condemned CCM music and others called you on it as well. Now you're being dishonest.

Like I stated, you are at the point to where you will either have to change your handle or change your post views on this matter.

There you go getting personal and inflammatory again. I've shown clearly how the passage works and it is plain to see. You don't WANT to see it as it proves you are wrong.

I find it actually saddening that you deny your attack on a specific form of praise music, that you personally attack me with unnecessary derogatory comments and deny this, that you'e condemned CCM and have judged them and that you continue your personal attack here. Not only this, but you also deny the clear application of Dt. 9:3 for and to the people of God, what He would do for them, and that He is such for them.

 

[agedman]

You said there is no such passage for God's people, and I showed you one that is specifically for the people of God. You're being dishonest and won't own up.

Here is the verse which you claim does not show God as a consuming fire for His people:


"Know therefore today that it is the LORD your God who is crossing over before you as a consuming fire. He will destroy them and He will subdue them before you, so that you may drive them out and destroy them quickly, just as the LORD has spoken to you. Deut. 9:3

God did not cross Jordan "for his people" as you keep insisting.

He did it because he was bringing judgment upon the heathen.

That he used Israel to bring judgment is not doing it FOR his people.

In fact, The Scriptures state that very point.

Deuteronomy 9


9 “Hear, O Israel! You are crossing over the Jordan today to go in to dispossess nations greater and mightier than you, great cities fortified to heaven, 2 a people great and tall, the sons of the Anakim, whom you know and of whom you have heard it said, ‘Who can stand before the sons of Anak?’ 3 Know therefore today that it is the Lord your God who is crossing over before you as a consuming fire. He will destroy them and He will subdue them before you, so that you may drive them out and destroy them quickly, just as the Lord has spoken to you.
4 “Do not say in your heart when the Lord your God has driven them out before you, ‘Because of my righteousness the Lord has brought me in to possess this land,’ but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the Lord is dispossessing them before you. 5 It is not for your righteousness or for the uprightness of your heart that you are going to possess their land, but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the Lord your God is driving them out before you, in order to confirm the oath which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
6 “Know, then, it is not because of your righteousness that the Lord your God is giving you this good land to possess, for you are a stubborn people."


You can claim to your last breath that God did it for Israel.

IN CONTEXT, God stated nope - not so.

God did it for the sole purpose that the folks residing there were wicked.

God used Israel, but not for any reason for Israel - and God states the exact reason why.

You are in error.

And by application so was the song.

 

[evenifigoalone]

I'm not talking about "lyrics". I'm talking about behavior!! Just because you say "Jesus" somewhere in a song doesn't make it a Christian song. Benny Hinn talks about Jesus too. You wanna defend him also? The "way" these bands behave on stage, screaming, jumping up and down, lewd dancing, fire and laser beam light shows.............c'mon now. I LIKE a LOT of the modern Christian songs, but those videos are a whole 'nother story. I'm sorry, post all the lyrics you want, you'll never convince me God is pleased with that stuff.

http://www.babylonforsaken.com/crockexposed.html

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/rockm/satanic.htm

http://www.northsidebaptistchurch.o...istian-rock-music/117-music-in-the-bible.html

http://www.squidoo.com/christian-rock-music-praising-god-or-the-world

And that's fine. But not all Christians share your opinion.
Aside from the fact that your description of the goings-on in those videos is very subjective (lewd dancing? I don't see any)...
I think few if any would agree that you need any of that stuff to worship or that it's part of worship at all, but as it IS a concert it is fun to have. I personally don't have a problem with it. You go to concerts to have fun. Since it is Christian music and bands, worship can be involved. But that doesn't mean Christians can't have fun, too.
As a bonus, you might be able to persuade a non-believer who may not agree to attending an actual church service to come and he might learn about Christ while there. Because they do have a time of prayer and mention the gospel message if I remember correctly.
Would I approve of all the lights and other entertainment factors in church? No, because church is a time of worship and learning, not a time to be entertained.

Being separate from the world doesn't mean avoiding things just because they are popular. It doesn't mean Christians should never use laser lights or wear popular clothes or dance for joy or use clean slang just because "that's worldly", it doesn't mean we need to be stuck in the past just so the world can look at us going, "oh, they're different and so righteous!"
It means we don't take on the attitude of the world, we don't change according to the world's standards of right and wrong.
Wouldn't it be better if the world recognized Christians as being different from everyone else in regards to kindness and charity, sticking to our morals, and the other things we are commanded to be? If "being separate from the world" simply means following a set of rules simply for the sake of appearing different, then you fall into this mindset of "oh, I follow all these rules, I'm such a good Christian", when in fact we may be lacking in the qualities that matter such as really reaching out to the world in grace and love.