Scholar Explains Why So Many Reject Genesis

[Aaron]

Why do so many Evangelicals reject the plain meaning?

However, so many evangelical churches have abandoned the text-based understanding, contrary to the traditional Church. Dr Zuiddam named three factors:

Augustine believed that the earth was only a few thousand years old. He wrote a chapter in his most famous book, The City of God, to show the scholars of his day that their idea of a very old earth was wrong.

First, “pragmatism and individualism have taken over. Evangelical churches have become utilitarian institutions with a corporate business approach. It is no longer Jesus’ ministry but ours, ‘for Him’ of course. ‘Our’ ministry becomes a goal in itself. Success is equated with blessing. Then more capable Christians are treated as threats to the business rather than fellow workers for the Lord. And on the other side, they crave respectability from society, so pleasing men is more important than to please God.”

Second, “a secular view has permeated Western society. Everything in life is explained without God. It is the same everywhere, at school, university, on radio, television and in the newspapers. God is only reckoned with as a personal religious preference of people, a theory some people believe in, but only relevant in term of beliefs.” That is, God as such has no relevance to the real world.

Third, “there is widespread lack of biblical knowledge, as the Apostle Paul predicted, ‘For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine’ (2 Timothy 4:3–5). Look at the best-selling books in Christian book stores, and you will realize what I am talking about.”
​

http://creation.com/benno-zuiddam-interview-church-history

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Why do so many Evangelicals reject the plain meaning?

However, so many evangelical churches have abandoned the text-based understanding, contrary to the traditional Church. Dr Zuiddam named three factors:

Augustine believed that the earth was only a few thousand years old. He wrote a chapter in his most famous book, The City of God, to show the scholars of his day that their idea of a very old earth was wrong.

First, “pragmatism and individualism have taken over. Evangelical churches have become utilitarian institutions with a corporate business approach. It is no longer Jesus’ ministry but ours, ‘for Him’ of course. ‘Our’ ministry becomes a goal in itself. Success is equated with blessing. Then more capable Christians are treated as threats to the business rather than fellow workers for the Lord. And on the other side, they crave respectability from society, so pleasing men is more important than to please God.”

Second, “a secular view has permeated Western society. Everything in life is explained without God. It is the same everywhere, at school, university, on radio, television and in the newspapers. God is only reckoned with as a personal religious preference of people, a theory some people believe in, but only relevant in term of beliefs.” That is, God as such has no relevance to the real world.

Third, “there is widespread lack of biblical knowledge, as the Apostle Paul predicted, ‘For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine’ (2 Timothy 4:3–5). Look at the best-selling books in Christian book stores, and you will realize what I am talking about.”
​

http://creation.com/benno-zuiddam-interview-church-history

Thats funny....I visited with an apostate UMC in my community yesterday & in speaking to the pastor there he admitted two things: they build there church off of wayward Roman Catholics & 2) they don't stress doctrine. He made it sound like its a dirty word.

So my origional premise that these modern churches are cultivating RC 's and dumming down everything down to accomidate them is sound. How long until it penetrates into the southern Bible belt? Lets see, I have seen the PCUSA succumb, the Episcopals are completely apostate, the United Methodists are a mess, the Baptists (around here anyway have thrown in with the Charismatic movement, Pentecostal Churches are on the rise, the RCC is flourishing. & being renewed by the Latins, the PCA is not teaching doctrine (again in a push to attract Catholics) & that's pretty much the landscape.

 

[Deacon]

Originally posted by Augustine [~400 AD]:

“Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods and on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason? Reckless and incompetent expounders of Holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although “they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion

St. Augustine [De Genesi ad litteram libri duodecim (The Literal Meaning of Genesis) translated by J. H. Taylor, Ancient Christian Writers, Newman Press, 1982, volume 41; Book 1 Chapter 19 Paragraph 39]

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Thats funny....I visited with an apostate UMC in my community yesterday & in speaking to the pastor there he admitted two things: they build there church off of wayward Roman Catholics & 2) they don't stress doctrine. He made it sound like its a dirty word.

Sounds exactly like Adam Hamilton, who famously -- or, perhaps, I should say "infamously" -- wrote the book Seeing Grey in a World of Black and White in 2006.

http://mrrives.com/Gezer/?p=984

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Sounds exactly like Adam Hamilton, who famously -- or, perhaps, I should say "infamously" -- wrote the book Seeing Grey in a World of Black and White in 2006.

http://mrrives.com/Gezer/?p=984

If either John Wesley or George Whitefield saw the condition of the present day Methodist church they would be dishearten :tear:

Many will have to put on sackcloth and give up their evil ways...then and only then will there be revival. If not I fear this community, indeed this country will meet the same disasterious fate as Sodom.

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by Augustine

“Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods and on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason? Reckless and incompetent expounders of Holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although “they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion

St. Augustine [De Genesi ad litteram libri duodecim (The Literal Meaning of Genesis) translated by J. H. Taylor, Ancient Christian Writers, Newman Press, 1982, volume 41; Book 1 Chapter 19 Paragraph 39]

[~400 AD]:

Keeping this quote within context, Augustine is speaking of the difference between the literal and allegorical meanings of Genesis, and that they are not mutually exclusive. Isaac and Ishmael and Sarah and Hagar were real people in a real history, but Paul finds an allegory about the law and grace in their history of which he writes to the Galatians.

Augustine (indeed almost every real student of the Scriptures) finds an allegory in the creation of light on the first day, but that doesn't negate the literal history thereof, just as Paul seeing the Church in Sarah, Judaism in Hagar, and religious Jews in Ishmael and Christians in Isaac does not negate the literal history of these four individuals. Neither is it up to the secular and unbelieving anthropologists and archaeologists of our day to tell us the "real" nature of these individuals and their culture.

I suspect Deacon is doing just what Augustine admonished us against, and that is positing this statement wrenched from its context to suggest that Augustine would leave the literal or historical interpretation of Genesis up to the pagan scientists of his day, and nothing is further from the truth.

A a secular geologist debating age testing techniques with a Christian geologist is not the thing that Augustine is advising us against. He is advising us against the type of foolishness of which M.R. DeHaan is guilty in The Chemistry of the Blood.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

If either John Wesley or George Whitefield saw the condition of the present day Methodist church they would be dishearten :tear:

Many will have to put on sackcloth and give up their evil ways...then and only then will there be revival. If not I fear this community, indeed this country will meet the same disasterious fate as Sodom.

Exactly right. My wife went to COTR before I met her and introduced her to my SBC church. She instantly felt as though she had entered into a river of truth. The adult Bible study we attend has been a fountain of solid teaching for her -- we have an excellent lay teacher whose lessons are constantly a strong parallel reinforcement of the pastor's sermon. She also loves the people there and we've developed several strong friendships with couples from that class, and neither of us had those kind of friendships before, even me who attended the church. It is, I think, difficult for singles in any church to develop mentoring or accountability relationships with even one side of a married couple.

My wife has commented on Hamilton's constant harping on this theme of his regarding how "humanity grew a deeper and clearer understanding of God" and that's why we can now embrace spiritual acceptance of homosexuality, gay marriage, etc. It really bothered her, she knew it wasn't true, but she was also afraid to step out and try other churches, particularly Baptist churches in the area. She was deeply hurt by an IFB church after her divorce and assumed all Baptists were like that, and didn't want to risk that nonsense again. She's glad to be where she is, and people she knew at COTR keep asking, "When are you coming back?" She says, "I'm not. Why don't you come to church with my husband and me and see why?" So far, no one has taken us up on that invitation. That's truly sad.

 

[Aaron]

Why do so many Evangelicals reject the plain meaning?

However, so many evangelical churches have abandoned the text-based understanding, contrary to the traditional Church. Dr Zuiddam named three factors:

Augustine believed that the earth was only a few thousand years old. He wrote a chapter in his most famous book, The City of God, to show the scholars of his day that their idea of a very old earth was wrong.

First, “pragmatism and individualism have taken over. Evangelical churches have become utilitarian institutions with a corporate business approach. It is no longer Jesus’ ministry but ours, ‘for Him’ of course. ‘Our’ ministry becomes a goal in itself. Success is equated with blessing. Then more capable Christians are treated as threats to the business rather than fellow workers for the Lord. And on the other side, they crave respectability from society, so pleasing men is more important than to please God.”

Second, “a secular view has permeated Western society. Everything in life is explained without God. It is the same everywhere, at school, university, on radio, television and in the newspapers. God is only reckoned with as a personal religious preference of people, a theory some people believe in, but only relevant in term of beliefs.” That is, God as such has no relevance to the real world.

Third, “there is widespread lack of biblical knowledge, as the Apostle Paul predicted, ‘For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine’ (2 Timothy 4:3–5). Look at the best-selling books in Christian book stores, and you will realize what I am talking about.”
​

http://creation.com/benno-zuiddam-interview-church-history

Just highlighting the grand motivation.

 

[quantumfaith]

http://www.qideas.org/essays/science-and-faith-at-odds.aspx

 

[quantumfaith]

Just highlighting the grand motivation.

BTW the line, which you so pompously highlighted is nothing more than specious bloviating.

 

[Aaron]

Maybe, maybe not, but what he said about the early church reading of Genesis is beyond dispute. You'd have to click on the link and read the article.

 

[Luke2427]

Maybe, maybe not, but what he said about the early church reading of Genesis is beyond dispute. You'd have to click on the link and read the article.

The early church believed a LOT of things that were dead wrong.

Some things that were absolutely heretical.

A person is not the most intelligent when he is a baby. It is when he is an adult.

The infant church was wrong about a LOT of things.

I love how people want to get back to the way the EARLY CHURCH was. Meeting in homes instead of cathedrals, very simple worship services, blah, blah, blah...

The early church was a MESS. Now we thank God for them. But look at the Corinthians: people sleeping with their step moms and being praised for it, polygamy, infighting, suing one another before secular authorities, and the list goes on and on...

Or the Galatians...

Or five of the seven churches in Revelation.

The church in its infancy was a mess and very ignorant. Not saying that its not today- it still has a long way to go, but we have a graps on the Trinity now, no one held in repute in evangelical Christianity is a polygamist and no one is sleeping with their step moms and being praised for it and no one in evangelicalism is saying you can't be saved unless you become a Jew first, etc...

The Church is maturing- slowly, painfully, but certainly.

The early church is not the MEASURE for anything. The BIBLE is.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

The early church believed ... [yadda, yadda, yadda] ... is not the MEASURE for anything.

Neither is the current church. It has ALWAYS been a mess.

The BIBLE is.

But yet you don't take it at face value, for what it says. Interesting.

 

[Luke2427]

Neither is the current church. It has ALWAYS been a mess.

But yet you don't take it at face value, for what it says. Interesting.

Face value is not taking figurative language and forcing it to be literal.

face value is not taking Genesis 2:4 and saying SEE!!! IT HAS TO BE THAt GOD MADE THE WHOLE UNIVERSE IS 24 HOURS!!!!!

Genesis 2:4 "...in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens." Here, Moses uses Yom to indicate the entire creative week.

OBVIOUSLY....

I mean OBVIOUSLY the word DAY (yom) there does not mean 24 hours!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Holy COW!!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

OBVIOUSLY it is figurative... the way people USUALLY use the word day. Back in Noah's day, Moses' day, Jesus day and still in our own day we USUALLY use the word DAY NOT AS A 24 HOUR PERIOD OF TIME!!

HAHAHAHHA!!

If you want to believe the universe is six to ten thousand years old- fine.

Good people believe that. Intelligent people believe that.

But don't PRETEND that those who see the word "DAY" as not literal are against the word of God compromisers with evil god-hating scientists.

That just makes you look ignorant.

Disagree with me- fine.

But don't tell me that I don't take the word of God at face value just because it seems quite obvious that DAY in Genesis 1-2 does not always mean a literal period of 24 hours.

SHEESH!!!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Face value is not taking figurative language and forcing it to be literal.

This negates your entire argument. Because whether you like it or not, whether you will accept it or not, Hebrew scholars throughout the ages have confirmed the truth, that the language in Genesis 1 and 2 is literal in nature. It is not figurative. You can't force it to be, because it isn't. But your stubborn refusal to accept it, choosing instead to act like a theological Don Quixote tilting at rock-solid windmills, blinds you. Nothing I nor anyone else can do about that. It's statements like this ...

face value is not taking Genesis 2:4 and saying SEE!!! IT HAS TO BE THAt GOD MADE THE WHOLE UNIVERSE IS 24 HOURS!!!!!

Genesis 2:4 "...in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens." Here, Moses uses Yom to indicate the entire creative week.

... that are most frustrating because you blatantly lie about the passage, despite the evidence that refutes your claim. This use of yowm is made singular by the conjunction "the." It's singular, not plural, therefore it becomes the equivalent of a cardinal number, which requires the word yowm to be read as a literal 24-hour day. It can't be any other way, despite the fact you desperately want it to be, to the extent you deny 5,000 years of Hebrew language usage.

And by the way, Genesis 1:9 indicates that the heavens and the Earth were created in one day, which is what Genesis 2:4 refers back to in its content.

This whole effort is not worth trying to overcome your arrogance anymore. Why should anyone waste their time trying to discuss something with someone when they won't bother to be intellectually honest in the discussion?

 

[Luke2427]

This negates your entire argument. Because whether you like it or not, whether you will accept it or not, Hebrew scholars throughout the ages have confirmed the truth, that the language in Genesis 1 and 2 is literal in nature. It is not figurative. You can't force it to be, because it isn't. But your stubborn refusal to accept it, choosing instead to act like a theological Don Quixote tilting at rock-solid windmills, blinds you. Nothing I nor anyone else can do about that. It's statements like this ...

... that are most frustrating because you blatantly lie about the passage, despite the evidence that refutes your claim. This use of yowm is made singular by the conjunction "the." It's singular, not plural, therefore it becomes the equivalent of a cardinal number, which requires the word yowm to be read as a literal 24-hour day. It can't be any other way, despite the fact you desperately want it to be, to the extent you deny 5,000 years of Hebrew language usage.

And by the way, Genesis 1:9 indicates that the heavens and the Earth were created in one day, which is what Genesis 2:4 refers back to in its content.

This whole effort is not worth trying to overcome your arrogance anymore. Why should anyone waste their time trying to discuss something with someone when they won't bother to be intellectually honest in the discussion?

The cardinal number rule is bogus. I proved that in a previous post.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

The cardinal number rule is bogus. I proved that in a previous post.

In your own mind, perhaps. Not in anyone else's. How would you explain that the use of yowm anywhere in the Old Testament, when accompanied by a number, always means a literal 24-hour day? Or that the use of the phrase "evening and morning" ('erb and boqer) always mean a literal 24-hour day? You can't, or you won't try. I'm really not sure what to expect.

Your precious "scientific evidence" was considered proof not of evolution, but of the Genesis account until the 1800s when a paradigm shift occurred within the scientific community, and the earth's sedimentary strata layers were reinterpreted. Whereas previously the rock layers were interpreted as evidence of Noah's flood, the flood was thrown out by the scientific community and the rock layers were reinterpreted as evidence for an excessively old earth. Some well-meaning but terribly mistaken Christians then sought to reconcile this new anti-flood, anti-biblical interpretation with the Genesis account by reinterpreting yowm to mean vast, unspecified periods of time. The truth is that many of the old-earth interpretations are known to rely upon faulty assumptions like this one, despite the fact none of their assumptions can be reconciled to the biblical evidence. And you have bought into them. Along with many others. For no valid reason.

 

[saturneptune]

Thats funny....I visited with an apostate UMC in my community yesterday & in speaking to the pastor there he admitted two things: they build there church off of wayward Roman Catholics & 2) they don't stress doctrine. He made it sound like its a dirty word.

So my origional premise that these modern churches are cultivating RC 's and dumming down everything down to accomidate them is sound. How long until it penetrates into the southern Bible belt? Lets see, I have seen the PCUSA succumb, the Episcopals are completely apostate, the United Methodists are a mess, the Baptists (around here anyway have thrown in with the Charismatic movement, Pentecostal Churches are on the rise, the RCC is flourishing. & being renewed by the Latins, the PCA is not teaching doctrine (again in a push to attract Catholics) & that's pretty much the landscape.

I grew up in a PCA church, and they used to teach sound doctrine, especially books like Genesis. Sorry to see that. The PCUSA has always been off in left field. To tell the truth, Genesis is no problem for me. I read it and take it literally. The Creation implies a young earth, the flood did occur, Adam down to Abraham did live 100's of years. and yes (in Exodus) the Red Sea was parted. Why not, if they can part a bowl of tomato soup in "Bruce Almighty" I am sure the Lord is quite capable of making everything happen exactly as it is written in His Word.

I have a lot harder time with the book of Revelation deciding if it is literal or symbolic.

 

[Revmitchell]

I grew up in a PCA church, and they used to teach sound doctrine, especially books like Genesis. Sorry to see that. The PCUSA has always been off in left field. To tell the truth, Genesis is no problem for me. I read it and take it literally. The Creation implies a young earth, the flood did occur, Adam down to Abraham did live 100's of years. and yes (in Exodus) the Red Sea was parted. Why not, if they can part a bowl of tomato soup in "Bruce Almighty" I am sure the Lord is quite capable of making everything happen exactly as it is written in His Word.

I have a lot harder time with the book of Revelation deciding if it is literal or symbolic.

It is both

 

[quantumfaith]

Face value is not taking figurative language and forcing it to be literal.

face value is not taking Genesis 2:4 and saying SEE!!! IT HAS TO BE THAt GOD MADE THE WHOLE UNIVERSE IS 24 HOURS!!!!!

Genesis 2:4 "...in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens." Here, Moses uses Yom to indicate the entire creative week.

OBVIOUSLY....

I mean OBVIOUSLY the word DAY (yom) there does not mean 24 hours!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Holy COW!!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

OBVIOUSLY it is figurative... the way people USUALLY use the word day. Back in Noah's day, Moses' day, Jesus day and still in our own day we USUALLY use the word DAY NOT AS A 24 HOUR PERIOD OF TIME!!

HAHAHAHHA!!

If you want to believe the universe is six to ten thousand years old- fine.

Good people believe that. Intelligent people believe that.

But don't PRETEND that those who see the word "DAY" as not literal are against the word of God compromisers with evil god-hating scientists.

.

Disagree with me- fine.

But don't tell me that I don't take the word of God at face value just because it seems quite obvious that DAY in Genesis 1-2 does not always mean a literal period of 24 hours.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs: