Featured Calvinist/Non-Calvinist - Where exactly am I?

As a non-Cal....(and I read your post very carefully twice)...you are pretty much safely and decidedly in the "Calvinist" camp.

Here's the thing that gives it away irretrievably:

Yup...you are a Calvinist. Only a "Calvinist" would even use a term like "effectual grace". That's incurably Calvinist.
Similarly, only a Calvinist would say Christ died to save "those who would believe". That's "Limited Atonement".........there's no version of Soteriology on earth which affirms that except full-bore Calvinism.

If I may...(and this is not an attempt at insult)...but, this statement seems like sheer nonsense to me. Perhaps you merely worded it poorly?

Given your above quote anyway....this seems like sheer contradiction.

Can you clarify? (I do not mean to insult you....) This just seems like a contradiction. Either you truly affirm "Limited Atonement" or you don't.....if you DON'T, then praise God....you are B.B's only resident "AMYRALDIAN"!!!! how kewl would that be! I've never even KNOWN an actual Amyraldian. That would be kewl to have one........sorry (day-dreaming) can you clarify what you mean?

Did Christ "die" for everyone or "the elect" alone?........If you deny "Limited Atonement"...then you are our only resident Amyraldian (that I know of)..........how cool is That!!!

You make mention of your "non-Covenant" Theology, and your Eschatological pre-millennial pre-tribulational rapturism: I wouldn't sweat that, as those views are perfectly consistent with a SOTERIOLOGY of "Calvinism". One is "Eschatology" the other "Soteriology".

They are not contradictory. Granted....MOST hard-core "Calvies" are indeed non-dispy, and their "Covenant Theology" gives them sort of more pro-Calvinist argumentation than you might have.
Put differently, a "Covenant Theology" Calvinist has almost "MORE" reasons to believe in his Soteriology than a Dispensational one would have....
He has deeper pockets as it were.

"Covenant" Theology lends itself to "Calvinism" a little better than a Dispensational view does, but one can quite consistently be BOTH without problem.

That's my (non-Cal) two-cents........
but, yes....you appear to be----- no doubt---- a "Calvinist".

Embrace labels....I like labels. Be proud to be a Calvinist.:thumbs:

 

Considering that all of creation has been affected by the Fall, Christ's atonement, followed by His resurrection, redeemed creation. The benefits of which will not become evident until the eternal state.

In regards to the sins of men, I disagree with your statement "Christ is the atonement for the sins of men, period." The Atonement is effectual. It certainly has the power to satisfy the sins of all men, if that is God's desire, but it is not. You agree that only the elect will be redeemed. Ergo, since redemption relies on the Atonement, the Atonement is effectual for the elect. The Atonement is not a static event that only the elect profit from. The Atonement was intended only for the elect. The genesis of the Atonement is God's will of decree.

 

It depends how you define "Calvinism". Spurgeon used it to describe the Doctrines of Grace. According to that narrow definition, yes, you are a Calvinist. In that you are not a paedobaptist or agree with Calvin's ecclesiology then no, you are not a Calvinist. Neither am I if the broad definition is used. I am content with the narrow definition.

 

There is a marked difference between a Calvinistic Baptist and a confessional-covenantal (Reformed) Baptist. I would fit into that definition.

 

Jon, I am sorry for the lack of clarity. I was typing on my mobile device earlier.

I am a confessional-covenantal (Reformed) Baptist. Now, before some on this board accuse me of trumping God's word with a man-made confession, let me say there is no truth to that accusation. The confession I subscribe to (the 1689 Second London Baptist Confession of Faith) is a commentary on the Bible and orthodoxy. My theological convictions are in line with the conclusions of the framers of the 1689 LBCF. To the extent that the confession accurately interprets the Bible, I am in agreement with it. The covenantal part is easy enough to explain. I am a covenant theologian, not a dispensationalist.

 

Correct.

There is no one definition of "Reformed Baptist". But typically, Reformed Baptists are confessional and covenantal.

 

I was a dispensationalist for about twenty years. I attended a Bible college that is a stalwart in advancing dispensational thought. To even consider Covenant Theology was a non-starter for many years. I became a Calvinist five years before I became a Covenant Theologian. John Owen's writings had a lot to do with my conversion to Covenant Theology.

 

Jon, Why paint yourself into a corner by identifying yourself with any camp. I dont, rather I self identify myself as a Christian Radical. A radical is one who moves beyond the boundaries of Arminian, Non Calvinist, Calvinist, Liberal & Conservative, Catholic, Protestant, Baptist, whatever & goes back to a fundamental questioning. The dictionary says that a radical is one 'who goes back to the root, the source, the fundamentals.'

Maybe you want to go to words like "Primitive or Orthodox" but note that is really not the primary concern with the "Radical"

What is it that concerns the radical....why it is Christs truth & what did He truly teach & how is God working in your life. Those are the constant questions Jon that I ask of both my brethren & myself.

You will notice that Im constantly infuriating people on here..... good, because if they are falling prey to bad doctrine & dogma then they are not growing.....and I have been just as guilty of it many times. Therefore, dont concern yourself with labels, dont put yourself into a box. Seek Christ in the least of your brethren, reach out & touch the flesh of Christ & his wounds (John 20:27) because thats where you will find Him.... on this side of death, where you stand right now.

 

If you had defined depravity as simply "not able to follow through on your own inner will to do right" - then that is a view that I do not share as an Arminian.

I believe that Romans 3 points to a "Sinful nature" that is not simply "unable to make good on its good intentions" but rather "has bad intentions".

However the "Supernatural enmity" that God put in all mankind in Genesis 3 is not at all being described in Romans 3 as the sinful nature. It is an "unnatural element" that God places in his to be at war with the kingdom of darkness.

There is the "Drawing of ALL unto Me" that is more than the "ability to choose" but also the inclination to choose. Thus it is not a question of "programming" as if the saints were all "pre-programmed for heaven" and the lost "pre-programmed for hell".

It is fully enabled "Free will" where the power of God is stated to be present to fully enable the desire and the ability to choose eternal life, but not the "force of the will" that is so necessary in pure robot-Calvinism.

Rather than an emphasis on the Atonement, I believe that Scripture emphasizes the Resurrection as defining our faith. [/quote][/quote]

"He is the Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and NOT for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE World" 1John 2:2 means that "God so Loved the WORLD" John 16 and that "God was in Christ reconciling the WORLD to Himself" 2Cor 5 and that "God is not willing for ANYONE to perish but for ALL to come to repentance" 2Peter 3.

and yet --

"He came to HIS OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1

It is easy then to know "who to blame" in that model - - God.

But in the Bible "He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1.

Luke 7 states clearly that they chose not to "fulfill God's purpose for them".

I will give Calvinists this degree of credit - they are right about at least one point in the doctrine of the Atonement. Once atonement is completed - nothing else remains - but the 2nd coming. All lines are drawn, all issues settled, all cases decided.

in Christ,

Bob

 

JonC

Hello Jonc.....first you are a sinner saved by grace,covered by Jesus blood.

some of us do not divide Christ/Divine Sovereignty.....it is in discussing the [person and work of Christ...the leads exactly to this doctrine.

Jon...there is much to study...we are all a work in progress.each at different stages of growth.....calvinistic.....good label....I believe in time most calvinistic...become calvinists.

correct...the fall has lasting effects.

yes

sadly..yes

yes..eph3:9-11

.

The scripture reveals that Jesus died for those given to Him.

We do not have to venture beyond scripture...just properly understand what is freely revealed to us.

There is only one way...that explains many of the verses that use the term world, or all....the gospel goes worldwide as the elect are found all over the world.

yes...there is a reason,actually several reasons why it is so.

some of the theological language is used to explain several ideas all at once.

3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth

yes....eph2:1-3......but God-

correct

yes...we perservere because God works in us...phil1:6

Why divide what is not to be divided? The scripture says it is central....salvation is all of God.

A big topic.....non elect.....go into second death to pay for their sins....all of their sins...there are degrees of punishment for individual sins.

the other question is......was the atonement actual, and perfectly effectual.

or...

was it only potential and by itself...ineffectual? when you get this you will quickly come to the truth....

It was a once for all time perfect and completed work, with an ETERNAL High Priest....who ever liveth to make intercession for the elect.:thumbs:
He is the surety:[guarantee]

21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec

22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:

24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.

25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

,

He bought the rights to all men at the cross....but only intercedes and meditates for the elect...:thumbs:

Yes...the implication is this.....
God hates sin.
All sins will be punished
Sins will be punished in the Divine substitute
or in the sinner himself in the second death.
each and every sin will be punished...not sin in general

No....Christ our passover is Sacrificed for us.... the Resurrection is proof the Father accepted the blood atonement and sacrifice of the High priest.

.

The only distraction in modern theology is because of lazy or mis-taught professed church members entertaining themselves into hell rather than studying themselves into the kingdom.

Most of us...were...that is the last thing to go:thumbs:

Well...actually they do......You start with a simple good news statement...
Jesus died to save sinners...His blood cleanses us from sin....

Then the questions come- why are we sinners? why does sin have to be punished? Who is Jesus? Why is he called the Last Adam? Does God save everyone? Why not? etc...before long..the DoG are unfolded as you answer the questions.

Every real christian is a calvinist, they just do not know it.They might misunderstand some of it, they may not like the terms, labels etc....

The teaching that is known as calvinism is the gospel as taught by Jesus and all the scriptural writers.

But when you see the saints in heaven they all say salvation and true and righteous judgement belong to the Lord alone.

http://www.the-highway.com/atonement_Pink.html Jonc...read this when you can.

 

We should never consider ourselves as being painted in a corner. When I was an Fundamentalist Baptist I was convinced my doctrine was right. You could have saved your breath because there was no convincing me otherwise. Change occurred as I studied Scripture and began to ask questions. The answers to those questions came slow but sure. By the time I recognized my previous beliefs were in error the change had already taken place.

We should always be willing to change our position if convinced by sacred Scripture and plain reason (Luther). In that way we are never in a corner.

 

http://www.the-highway.com/atonement_Pink.html
1. If ALL the sins of ALL men were laid upon Christ, then the sin of unbelief was too. That unbelief is a sin is clear from the fact that in 1 John 3:23 we read, "And this is His commandment, That we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ." Refusal to believe in Christ is, therefore, an act of flagrant disobedience, rebellion against the Most High. But if all the sins of all men were laid upon Christ (as it is now asserted), then He also endured the penalty for the Christ-rejector's unbelief. If this be so, then Universalism is true. But it is not so. The very advocates of the view we are now refuting would not affirm it. And therein may be seen the inconsistency and untenableness of their teaching. For if unbelief is a sin and Christ did not suffer the penalty of it, then all sin was not laid upon Christ. Thus there are only two alternatives: a strictly limited Atonement, availing only for believers; or an unlimited Atonement which effectually secures the salvation of the entire human race.

2. If ALL the sins of ALL men were laid upon Christ, how could He say, "The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men"? (Matt. 12:31) Observe that Christ here used the future tense, "shall not be." Note, too, He did not merely say to the blaspheming Jews that He was then addressing, "Shall not be forgiven unto you," but in order to take in all others who should be guilty of this sin, He said, "Shall not be forgiven unto men." It is worse than idle to raise the cavil that the sin here spoken of was peculiar and exceptional, i.e., committed only by the Jews there addressed. The fact that this solemn utterance of Christ's is found not only in Matthew, but in Mark, and also in Luke-the Gentile Gospel-disposes of it.

Without attempting to define here the precise nature of this sin of blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, it is sufficient now to point out that it is a sin quite distinct from unbelief. In Scripture "blasphemy" is always an act of the lips, not merely of the mind or will. For our present purpose, it is enough to call attention to the undeniable fact that none other than the Savior Himself here tells us there is a sin (other than unbelief) which "shall not be forgiven unto men." This being so, then it is obviously a mistake, a serious error, to say that all sin was laid on Christ and atoned for.

3. If ALL the sins of ALL men were laid upon Christ, how could He possibly say to certain ones, "Ye shall seek Me, and shall die in your sins?" (John 8:21) Christ was here addressing the Pharisees. The time was only a short while before His death. He was speaking, therefore, of that which lay on the other side of His crucifixion and resurrection. This is seen from the fact that He first said, "I go My way, and ye shall seek Me." Most evidently was He referring to His return to the Father. And yet He expressly declared that after His departure from this world, these men would "seek" Him (but in vain), and they should die in their sins. Their death would be subsequent to His, and their death should be in sins. The striking thing is, that these awful words were uttered, on this same occasion, no less than three times. For in John 8:24 we read, "I said therefore unto you, That ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am, ye shall die in your sins." Note, carefully "die," not in your sin, but "in your sins." Here, then, is another indubitable proof that Christ did not bear all the sins of all men.

4. If ALL the sins of ALL men were laid upon Christ, why did the apostle Paul (under the Holy Spirit) write, "For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolator, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience." (Eph. 5:5, 6) The "children of disobedience" (cf. Eph. 2:2) is a name for unbelievers. It views them as rebels against God. The passage now before us tells us why "the wrath of God" shall come upon them-"because of these things," looks back to what had been specified in the previous verses. God's wrath would yet descend upon them not only because of their rejection of Christ, but because they had been guilty of sins of immorality and covetousness.

It is remarkable that v. 6 begins with the words, "Let no man deceive you with vain words." It certainly looks as though the Holy Spirit was here anticipating and repudiating this modern perversion of God's truth. Men do now tell us that no wrath from God will ever fall on men because of the sins of immorality and covetousness. Men now tell us that God's wrath for all sins came upon Christ. But when men tell us such things, none other than the Holy Spirit declares that they are "vain (empty) words." They are empty words because there is no truth in them! Then let us not be deceived by them.

5. If ALL the sins of ALL men were laid upon Christ, then Stephen wasted his dying breath when he prayed, "Lay not this sin to their charge." (Acts 7:60) The sin referred to was their stoning of himself, which was murder. But perhaps Stephen was not acquainted with this modern sophistry. Certainly he did not believe it. Had he believed that all sin had been "laid" on Christ, he would not have cried "lay not this sin to their charge," i. e., let not them suffer the penalty of it.

6. If ALL the sins of ALL men were laid upon Christ, what did the apostle mean when he said of the Jews, who forbade him to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, "to fill up their sins alway." (1 Thess. 2:16) If language has any meaning, these words of the apostle signify that the Jews were adding sins to sins, he did not say "to fill up their sin," but, "to fill up their sins." Clearly, there was no place in his theology for this strange invention of the twentieth century.

7. If ALL the sins of ALL men were laid upon Christ, what did the apostle mean when he said, "Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment"? (1 Tim. 5:24)One thing he meant was that no atonement had been made for them. Mark, again, he is speaking, not of sin, but "sins," and these, he declared, are "going before to judgment." Nothing could be plainer, These "sins" had not been "judged" at the Cross, therefore, they must be judged in the Day of Judgment.

8. If ALL the sins of ALL men were laid upon Christ, then why will a voice from heaven yet say to the godly Jews who shall be found in Babylon at the end-time, "Come out of her, My people, that ye be not partaker of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities"? (Rev. 18:4, 5) Here is proof positive that the theory we are new rebutting is not the theology of heaven.

Here is proof positive that the "sins" of Babylon were not laid on Christ. Here is proof positive that Christ was not "bruised" for her "iniquities," for God would not punish twice for the same sins.