Calvinist/Non-Calvinist - Where exactly am I?

[BobRyan]

In the work performed in Leviticus 16 the High Preist was NEVER SEATED until all that work was FINISHED .

Sadly for your view here - Lev 16 does not make any reference at all to "seated at the right hand of power when all is finished" - no reference to "posture" is emphasized in Lev 16 as having anything at all to do with "when the events of the Day of Atonement" are ended.

Rather the chapter of Lev 16 goes into great detail about the actual work done for accomplishing the "sin offering" and thus completed 'Atoning sacrifice" and ALSO the work of the High Priest that follows - in great detail.

Too late to start ignoring all the details in the chapter and looking for "then seated to indicate that the High Priest's ministry is ended".

In fact quite to the contrary - in the Bible the Priest-King is "SEATED" while doing His ministry.

So also in the book of Hebrews --

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Hebrews points to Christ as our High priest in heaven in both Heb 8 and 9 and He does his ministry - in heaven - seated at the right hand of the Father.

Heb 8
The New Priestly Service

8 Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man.
3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices. Therefore it is necessary that this One also have something to offer. 4 For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law; 5 who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, “See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.” 6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.


Heb 4
14 Seeing then that we have a great High Priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

"We HAVE a High Priest" who "IS a Minister" - not "We HAD a High Priest".


Heb 9
arnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. 11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

[FONT=&quot]Zech 6[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11[/FONT][FONT=&quot]"Take silver and gold, make an ornate crown and set it on the head of Joshua the son of Jehozadak, the high priest. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 12"Then say to him, 'Thus says the LORD of hosts, "Behold, a man whose name is Branch, for He will branch out from where He is; and He will build the temple of the LORD. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 13"Yes, it is He who will build the temple of the LORD, and He who will bear the honor and sit and rule on His throne Thus, He will be a PRIEST on His throne, and the counsel of peace will be between the two offices."' [/FONT]


Heb 8
We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle

 

[JonC]

If you had defined depravity as simply "not able to follow through on your own inner will to do right" - then that is a view that I do not share as an Arminian.

I believe that Romans 3 points to a "Sinful nature" that is not simply "unable to make good on its good intentions" but rather "has bad intentions".

However the "Supernatural enmity" that God put in all mankind in Genesis 3 is not at all being described in Romans 3 as the sinful nature. It is an "unnatural element" that God places in his to be at war with the kingdom of darkness.

There is the "Drawing of ALL unto Me" that is more than the "ability to choose" but also the inclination to choose. Thus it is not a question of "programming" as if the saints were all "pre-programmed for heaven" and the lost "pre-programmed for hell".

It is fully enabled "Free will" where the power of God is stated to be present to fully enable the desire and the ability to choose eternal life, but not the "force of the will" that is so necessary in pure robot-Calvinism.



Rather than an emphasis on the Atonement, I believe that Scripture emphasizes the Resurrection as defining our faith.

[/quote]

"He is the Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and NOT for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE World" 1John 2:2 means that "God so Loved the WORLD" John 16 and that "God was in Christ reconciling the WORLD to Himself" 2Cor 5 and that "God is not willing for ANYONE to perish but for ALL to come to repentance" 2Peter 3.

and yet --

"He came to HIS OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1




It is easy then to know "who to blame" in that model - - God.

But in the Bible "He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1.

Luke 7 states clearly that they chose not to "fulfill God's purpose for them".

I will give Calvinists this degree of credit - they are right about at least one point in the doctrine of the Atonement. Once atonement is completed - nothing else remains - but the 2nd coming. All lines are drawn, all issues settled, all cases decided.

in Christ,

Bob[/QUOTE]

Thank you, Bob, for your observations and feedback.

I believe in a limited free will - our will is constrained by our nature (if we could separate the two). That said, we are inclined to unrighteousness (our will rather than the will of God) and have “bad intentions” in this regard. So here, I believe that all men have the inclination to choose, but choose their own righteousness and reject God. Through grace, however, the elect come to faith. The model that I presented, therefore, does not place God with the blame but man (all men, including the elect). I may be mistaken in my view, but I assure you that it does not place the blame on God.

I understand if the Atonement was taken to incorporate the entire work of Christ - perhaps with Paul’s statement regarding our faith being founded in the Resurrection as a summary of this work or the gospel in its entirety. When you say that once atonement is completed all lines are drawn, all issues settled and all cases decided, where does the Resurrection and the faith of those who believe fit in (or is this incorporated in your view of the Atonement)?

 

[BobRyan]

As the above post shows - the Bible "details" are explicit regarding the Bible teaching about the Priest seated on His Throne as a MINISTER in the sanctuary in heaven. So also the OT example above.

By contrast Calvinism must continually offer assumption, inference, and speculation away from the clear reading of the text of scripture - and off into some land of pure imagination to make its case.

How can anyone take it seriously??

 

[Rippon]

Calvinism

How can anyone take it seriously??

You do or you wouldn't be racking up more than 27,000 posts by now.

 

[BobRyan]

You do or you wouldn't be racking up more than 27,000 posts by now.

:laugh: Very funny.

There are one or two guys over on the "Other Denominations" section that would beg to differ on the point that all my posts have been about C/A.:type:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Agreed. This is part and parcel of one who is under under exclusivist training.



See above.



I see this as well. There is nothing legalistic in your answer.

Please explain exclusivist training.

 

[Rippon]

:laugh: Very funny.

There are one or two guys over on the "Other Denominations" section that would beg to differ on the point that all my posts have been about C/A.:type:

Sorry about that Bob. I had overlooked that.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Why does that trouble you?Do you think there should be only believers and believers-to-be?

Do you acknowlege that God is glorified in the damnation of sinners?

There is a purpose for every reprobate walking the face of the earth. Pharaoh was a reprobate and yet he was used by the Lord in displaying the latter's power and Name known over all the world.

Does the Lord owe mercy to anyone?

Try answering my original question....."why did Samuel Rutherford make the statement that, Reprobates have exactly the same warrant to believe in Jesus Christ as do the Elect." He did not say that the Reprobate is off the hook in repenting & believing; he did not say that the Reprobate has a purpose in Gods glorification. If he had then it would put some closure to my query....but he didnt, rather he stated clear & purposefully that the Reprobate has EXACTLY THE SAME WARRANT TO BELIEVE as do the Elect. So what is the deeper meaning to that specific commentary & that is what you have not ventured to address.....probably because you dont know & cant.

And please dont give me the excuse that Rutherford was out to lunch when he said it. Rutherford had purpose to every utterance that came out of his mouth & he wasnt a dummy, rather a keen Puritan Scholar & a committed Calvinist.

Now Sinclair Ferguson (God love him) has a purpose in quoting Rutherford that I indeed do understand & he cleverly feathers this into his sermon on Legalism (that Ive attached). Have you listened to it? If for nothing else, its worth the listen or the read if you have the transcript. After I finish with ML-J "Studies in the Sermon on the Mount, I fully intend to get the book & audio on "The Marrow Of Modern Divinity" with Ferguson commentary. I find this good meat for myself to digest. Has anyone else gone into this in depth?

They will be condemned for their sin. They are entirely blameworthy.

Are we NOT all blameworthy & should we who have been given the gift of free grace not grateful? Lloyd Jones says in his book Sermons on the Mount, "Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth" --- and they alone. Once more then, we are different from the world..... He is a new man, a new creation; he belongs to an entirely different kingdom. (page 63)

But are we as Christians focusing too much of our attentions away from the Foundation of the Free Offering of the Gospel & isn't this the key issue that divides brethren (on BB & in the world) that we focus on....IE the Election Criterion, and not on the fact that Christ promises to save all who come to him in faith. Quoting John Preston in my past studies, "We preach Christ crucified & we preach Him to you", (here he did not exclude anyone) & I would sincerely hope we all (as born agains do similar):thumbs:

 

[saturneptune]

Sorry about that Bob. I had overlooked that.

The only two things you ever overlooked was sound theology and Christian virtue.

 

[Rippon]

The only two things you ever overlooked was sound theology and Christian virtue.

Yep,you sure are continuing your self-condemnation. Upswing in the forums huh? You contradict yourself at every turn Mike.

What exactly are you --a Calvinist or non-Calvinist?

 

[saturneptune]

Yep,you sure are continuing your self-condemnation. Upswing in the forums huh? You contradict yourself at every turn Mike.

What exactly are you --a Calvinist or non-Calvinist?

I am exactly a Calvinist. You are wolf in sheep's clothing.

 

[Rippon]

I am exactly a Calvinist. You are wolf in sheep's clothing.

So you are saying I am a non-Christian? How utterly untrue and hypocritical of you. You have said in many posts that you object to anyone judging anyone else's salvation. You have used strong language in fact objecting to that very thing in others. And as you have always pointed out --IT IS AGAINST BB RULES.

What you need to do is to follow your own advice Mike. Or find some other Forum in which you can spew your obvious hatred with like-minded folks such as yourself.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Please explain exclusivist training.

Still not sure what my brother P4T was alluding to but for the record let me state my beliefs clearly.

I believe in election by grace. I believe in the doctrine of original sin and man’s inability to rescue himself from his fallen state by his own freewill ability. I believe that sinners are called converted, regenerated and sanctified by the Holy Spirit and all are so regenerated and born again by the spirit of God shall never fall away. I believe sinners are justified in the sight of God only by the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ.

 

[Rippon]

Why does that trouble you?Do you think there should be only believers and believers-to-be?

Do you acknowlege that God is glorified in the damnation of sinners?

There is a purpose for every reprobate walking the face of the earth. Pharaoh was a reprobate and yet he was used by the Lord in displaying the latter's power and Name known over all the world.

Does the Lord owe mercy to anyone?

Have you ever pondered 2 Cor. 2:15 and the surrounding context:For we are to God the pleasing aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing. (NIV)

They will be condemned for their sin. They are entirely blameworthy. Do you believe that God is at fault somehow? I certainly hope not. You have said that He is a righteous Creator --but is also the LORD of all --doing whatsoever He pleases.

EWF,please deal with what I have posted here. Answer fully. Don't take any side-trails. I really want to know what you think. Start another thread on Sam R. and Sinclair F. if you wish. Just face up to what I have said above. And where can legalism be found in my statements?

 

[saturneptune]

So you are saying I am a non-Christian? How utterly untrue and hypocritical of you. You have said in many posts that you object to anyone judging anyone else's salvation. You have used strong language in fact objecting to that very thing in others. And as you have always pointed out --IT IS AGAINST BB RULES.

What you need to do is to follow your own advice Mike. Or find some other Forum in which you can spew your obvious hatred with like-minded folks such as yourself.

Read the post oh dime a dozen English teacher. I never said you were not a Christian. That is against BB rules. Do not put words in my mouth. BB rules prevent anyone from painting a crystal clear picture of you.

 

[Rippon]

Read the post oh dime a dozen English teacher. I never said you were not a Christian. That is against BB rules. Do not put words in my mouth. BB rules prevent anyone from painting a crystal clear picture of you.

You called me a wolf in sheep's clothing. That terminology is used in reference to someone pretending to be a Christian and savaging the flock. None of which applies to me. I put your own words in your own mouth many times because of your consistent inconsistencies.

 

[Rippon]

A Study In Contradiction

I am exactly a Calvinist.

Sat/Nep :"I do not like the term Calvinist." 10/29/13

Sat/Nep :"I have never said I was a Calvinist." 2/10/13

Sat/Nep :"First of all,I am not a Calvinist." 12/22/12

Sat/Nep :"Sorry,I am not a Calvinist." 4/4/12

Sat/Nep :"I never said I was a Calvinist." 1/2/10

Sat/Nep :"First,I never said I was a Calvinist." 12/30/09

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

EWF,please deal with what I have posted here. Answer fully. Don't take any side-trails. I really want to know what you think. Start another thread on Sam R. and Sinclair F. if you wish. Just face up to what I have said above. And where can legalism be found in my statements?

You have my belief statement.....what else is necessary? #2 have you listened to the Ferguson Sermon?

 

[BobRyan]

The Day of Atonement in Lev 16 begins with what 1John 2:2 "The Atoning Sacrifice" -- the cross. There is no way to have the Atonement teaching of Lev 16 as a non-Cross subject.

But the Atonement includes more than the work of Christ on the Cross (as if He had not done anything gospel-significant since) rather it points to the work of Christ as High Priest - equally essential in the entire subject. And all of it as God's plan of salvation.

Arminianism would be universalism if we could ignore all the details after the cross (after the atoning sacrifice Lev 16:15) because Christ died for our sins and for the sins of the Whole World.

But in "atonement" the entire program is encompassed not only the sacrifice but also the individual case-by-case application of that atoning sacrifice - as Paul points out in Heb 9 regrading the work of Christ for each individual cleansing the conscience from sin.

However once that entire - larger scope of atonement is over - nothing is left - you are at Rev 22:10-11 "let him who is filthy be filthy still.... let him who is holy be holy still". And so the sanctuary in heaven shuts down as we see in Rev 15:8 and then comes the 7 last plagues (Rev 16) and 2nd coming. Because there is no more "crossing over" from lost to saved or from saved to lost.

All issues resolved, all cases settled.

(I am going to start a thread with this as the subject - because it is key to the Arminian position).

in Christ,

B ob

 

[Rippon]

You have my belief statement.....what else is necessary? #2 have you listened to the Ferguson Sermon?

Why is it your habit to be so evasive? Your "belief statement" did not deal with my post.

I told you to start another thread if you wanted to discuss Sinclair F. or Sam R. Please do so. Stop with your bunny trails. Deal with specifics that I made.